Strange true story-Jehovah Witnessess

[bruce]

I can't comment on things I don't know about but these are the facts as I see it.I know the Witnesses are the only Christian group that I know of that do not worship Jesus.Yet we Witnesses do everything Jesus tells us to do.I looked at the Witnesses pretty much like everyone else coming up I'm 44 now.Kinda spooky funny feeling when I was around them.I noticed they had all types of people in there "church". I went to work at a grocery store when I was 19 and there was this guy who would come in and do the floors 3 times a week.Nice fellow worked good always was kind.As I got to talk to him he told me he was a Jehovah's Witness and a flag went up to stay away because"everyone"thought they were of the devil but I would listened to what he said and thanked him. Got to be freinds and he didn't push his religion on me,he would talk about Jehovah being God ,144,000 going to heaven ,government on earth that christ will rule from heaven,.Strange teachings they had.As years went by I got away from all types of religions and pretty much forgot about the witnesses until 1994 and 2 came to my door with these magazines called the Watchtower now they never ask me for a dime but I figured anyone who would go door to door to preach their religion deserved something I would give 2.00 or 3.00 dollars and thanked them and they went away.I looked through there magazines and said to myself there are things in the bible I never seen when I was in the Church of God when I was younger still did pay attention I was to worried about making money,buying new trucks,listening to Alice and Chains ,Bowie,partying thinking how smart I was because I won 2 chess tournments in Memphis Tn,Didn't need God or wanted to know God I had money,nice cushie job,pretty little wife, life was good....until 1999 then my world crashed like a cheap computer.My wife got up and run off with a internet lover didn't have my cushie job anymore because I quit,blew 41,000.00 cash in 2 years falling fast I was.Couldn't figured out why this was happening,tripping big time then my sister had become a Witness and she came to see me and she said why don't you ask Jehovah to help you?I said it doesn't matter about God and his name! Oh how wrong I was!!!!! I listen and she told me to pray to Jehovah from my heart and end the prayer in Jesus name.I said well might as well try.People it was like a movie I started seeing things I had never seen before!ExampleA: I loved my wife dearly have 2 wonderful kids that stay with me,my wife and I worked at the same place and she would talk about a guy named Jimmy Taylor now she talked so much about him I just knew she was seeing him.I asked Jehovah form my heart to show me if these things about my wife were true.20minutes after that prayer I was going to work and this guy jumped out in front of my truck and ask me for a ride to this town I worked in I said sure.As we were riding he looked on my shirt and noticed my companys logo He said you work at AG? I said yes ,then he said you might know my nephew his name is Jimmy Taylor!I about wrecked!No one knew that prayer but me.First lesson do not tempt God! or be careful what you ask for you might get it.There is so much I can say,so many stories about reaping what you sow all I will say and this is the truth the bible comes alive when I read it,Witnesses can see it so clear ,we are not a cult,Jim Jones was cult,we are not a sect.I would not believe unless I "seen" it from the King James bible its in there but I use the new world translation now.I feel so good when I'm at the kingdom hall people are loving and kind we study the bible get the watchtower study and match it up with the bible and do you know they have not ask me for a dime still!!!!! No group studies the bible like Jehovah Witnessees and no disrespect to other peoples choice of religion I can't judge.That spooky feeling?that's Satan spirit trying to keep you away if I knew then what I know now I would have joined when I was 19. I love reading the bible not meaning to bore , Jehovah Witnessess I;m proud to be associated with them John 20 :17 read it and look at every word because when you "see it" you will never look at life the same again...........

 

[iBrian]

I have no problem with inviting JW's into my home either, and regularly invite them in if it's just me at home and have some rather spirited discussions.

At the end of the day, different people find Truth in different ways. Sometimes I liken faith as like an Office - where everyone has different tasks and responsibilities and therefore needs to know and believe only in certain things. And I have no problem with that in principle with anyone of Faith - no matter whether it's organised or strictly personal.

The friction only arises when some part of the Office tries to dictate terms to other - sort of like the personal clerk telling the company secretary that he/she shouldn't be doing company secretary work, but personal clerk work instead.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have strong beliefs - and like most any other Christian group, they see themselves as trying to follow the principles of Jesus as closely as possible. Of course, not everyone in the Christian sphere seems to agree about which ideas and practices should be followed. Perception and interpretation is everything.

Is there anything wrong with being a Jehovah's Witness? I can't see why - I can quite understand the appeal - it's a very tightly-knit community of shared beliefs. And, ultimately, as I work in this Office, I have no intention of telling other people in the team that they should be dropping certain admin tasks for certain other clerical tasts, because it's a generally pointless argument.

So...chill and relax in the diversity that is CR, and feel free to join in with your opinions. I've had some rather spirited debates with Christians in general - especially Jehovah's Witnesses - and I would certainly enjoy doing so again.

Simply because it's good to chat while in the Office.

 

[Mus Zibii]

I don't have much to say on topic, but I've always been curious why the Witnesses embraced that particular rendering of the Jewish name of God. Did it start out like that and just stuck or is there a deeper significance?

I've always liked the Witnesses take on government and religion. I wish every faith felt that way. If something is 'from' God it shouldn't be mixed with the folly of man, right? That said, if a government agreed to assimilate with the Jehovah's Witness doctrine, would that be favorable?

 

[bananabrain]

that particular rendering of the name is what you get if you put the vowels from what we say in liturgical settings (rhymes with "up on high") into the Tetragrammaton. it is not actually the Ineffable Name of Four (Shem Ha-Meforash).

the thing that confuses me about JWs is a) why the hell they have to ring my sodding doorbell when i'm having a lie-in and b) if there are a set number of places in heaven, wouldn't going round converting people increase competition for them? if i was onto such a good thing, i probably wouldn't be going around telling everyone i dare say; although, never having let them in, i have no idea if they're not just coming round to gloat.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Avinash]

I can't comment on things I don't know about but these are the facts as I see it. I know the Witnesses are the only Christian group that I know of that do not worship Jesus.Yet we Witnesses do everything Jesus tells us to do.

Hello Bruce,

Two of my grandparents were members of one of the so-called "Apostolic Churches". Their particular branch is also against the worship of Jesus as God. Some people say that that part of the Apostolic Chrurches can no longer be called Christian. But maybe this is also said of the Jehovah Witnesses (I don't know)?

 

[Mus Zibii]

I was just wondering why that was version was favoured. Found the answer on the net, though. Or a answer. It was believed that the Greek Old Testament originally had it rendered thus. And the Masoretes did, but they're likely to be the ones in error rather than the other way around. It seems hard to believe that evil apostate Christians would put such emphasis on exchanging Y for J to the point of changing every manuscript in the world.

 

[shannon]

First allow me to say that if this was posted in a forum other than the Christianity one, I may be less direct, but it wasn't... and JW is not Christianity... so ....

I have spent much time with JW's and fully believe and can support, from the bible, that it is a non biblical sect.

I wish to share some facts.

JW's believe and teach that Jesus was an angel, not to mention that he came back to earth in 1914 (or something near that).

Jesus called himself "I AM", and He accepted worship, and He forgave sins, and He fulfills the prophesies of God which state the He would come.

JW's do not believe that Jesus is God and yet Jesus clearly equated himself with God, based on scripture... so He either is God or a heretic... and not an angel.

JW's NWT bible changes the text to remove the deity of Christ and the person of the Holy Spirit.

The measure of being right with God is not how a religion makes you feel or even miraculous serendipity (Jesus says in the bible that many who prophesied and performed miracles and drove out demons in His name do not even know Him and so He does not know them on the last day.)... the measure of being right with God is knowing who Jesus is and honoring God by confessing as much. It must be biblically verifiable and I'm sorry to say that JW's dogma is not.

I was visited and had many enjoyable conversations with JW's

The first thing my friendly and likeable JW visitors said was

1. there are no secret teachings, no secret texts of JW's
2. the bible interprets itself and no other book is needed

I learned that

1. there ARE secret texts available to elders only.. and I have the names of them as well as text from those books.
2. the JW's teach and believe that the bible cannot be properly understood without the supplement of their own literature!

I felt like I had been lied to right off the bat.... and I had been. The scary thing is I don't thing the JW even realized it.

Is it any wonder that those including myself who have deeply and objectively studied the JW theology from a biblical vantage believe that it is a cult?

I loved the JW's who visited me over many months. I believe they want to know and love God. I believe that they should study the bible on their own, without the belief that is must be supplemented by their own literature... which is unbiblical. The Bible itself is sufficient.

You can choose your religion, and I don't have a problem with that, but make sure you know what you are in and why you are in it...

May you be blessed with the peace of God which surely passes all understanding.

Shannon

 

[Mus Zibii]

Well, they're Christian because they use--in whatever capacity--Christian tradition. Its a fine line, I guess. Actually, maybe you're right.

But yeah, I've had similiar dealings. From what I understand, what I've been told, Jesus is suppose to have been the archangel Michael. But like you said, that's not in the writing--any of the writing. So Jesus was either what he said he was, or a heretic (or non-existent).

 

[Ben57]

I don't have much to say on topic, but I've always been curious why the Witnesses embraced that particular rendering of the Jewish name of God. Did it start out like that and just stuck or is there a deeper significance?

The name as it stands in English "Jehovah" was first translated that way by a Catholic priest several centries ago. The Hebrew form was just four letters YHWH. The form Jehovah became widely accepted by most "chrostians" untill JWs started using it in earnest. It was becaise it was the most widely accepted rendering into English that they picked it up. Theu do not object to Yahwah or Yahveh or similar either.

If we were to corect Jehovah to Yahwah or similar then we should change Jesus to Yeshua and all the other "J" names. We accept them as the English equvilent and when we speak of Jesus we recognise that as the man that was a carpenter, preformed many miricals, and died a horrible death at the hands of the Romans instgated by the Jewish Leaders. So when we speak of Jehovah we associate that name with the God of Abrraham Isacc Jacob and Jesus

 

[Ben57]

First allow me to say that if this was posted in a forum other than the Christianity one, I may be less direct, but it wasn't... and JW is not Christianity... so ....

I have spent much time with JW's and fully believe and can support, from the bible, that it is a non biblical sect.

I wish to share some facts.

JW's believe and teach that Jesus was an angel, not to mention that he came back to earth in 1914 (or something near that).

I understand that you have come accross this type of reasonings but would it not be nice if you shared some support to these. By the way JWs beleive Jesus was appointed as King in 1914 in HEAVEN not on Earth

Jesus called himself "I AM", and He accepted worship, and He forgave sins, and He fulfills the prophesies of God which state the He would come.

This is something often miss understood. Jesus never called himself the "I AM" as in identity but used it to show his age. "before Abraham was I am" or I have been

JW's do not believe that Jesus is God and yet Jesus clearly equated himself with God, based on scripture... so He either is God or a heretic... and not an angel.

JW's NWT bible changes the text to remove the deity of Christ and the person of the Holy Spirit.

Many feel that that is so but there are no texts that equte Jesus with God. Their Bible the "New World translation of the Holly Scriptures" does not take away the diety of Christ. The simplr truth is other Bibles add the diety of Christ to their Bible Versions. Themost important example is John 1:1. see my web page homepages.picknowl.com.au/Brenton

The measure of being right with God is not how a religion makes you feel or even miraculous serendipity

I fully agree with you

the measure of being right with God is knowing who Jesus is and honoring God by confessing as much. It must be biblically verifiable and I'm sorry to say that JW's dogma is not.

The Bible says "he that does the will of God remains forever" We must determin what Gods will is and verify it by the Bible. You say JW dogma can not be. Please chose one subject and lets discuss it and let the reders detemin for themselves.

I was visited and had many enjoyable conversations with JW's

The first thing my friendly and likeable JW visitors said was

1. there are no secret teachings, no secret texts of JW's
2. the bible interprets itself and no other book is needed

I learned that

1. there ARE secret texts available to elders only.. and I have the names of them as well as text from those books.
2. the JW's teach and believe that the bible cannot be properly understood without the supplement of their own literature!

There is no secret book. The book you refer to is one the elders use and there is nothing in that book that has not been written in any other publication. The idea of that book is to put in one handy location matterial to help the elderes shepard the flock.

Your point 2 is partually corrct but to answer that I need a lot more space. Just as an example you have made some wide open remarks that you did not come to by yourself. You came to those conclutions by reading other material. JWs do not beleive that thier literature is infalable and the can and many do have other points of view.

I felt like I had been lied to right off the bat.... and I had been.

The sad part ab out this is that those that oppose JWs have been lied too. Sometimes this has been a dliberate distortion of the truth about JWs but more often it is unintentiional as indiduals beleive the writtings of others and then quote the "miss quotes" about JWs thus unintentually spreding the miss information. These ones are scincere in their attemps but unwittingly spread miss information.

Is it any wonder that those including myself who have deeply and objectively studied the JW theology from a biblical vantage believe that it is a cult?

Please list a few subjects where you feel the JWs are wrong and let the readers here chose one these teachings and let us show the readers here both sides of the coin so that the readers here can be fully informed.

 

[iBrian]

Hi ben57 and welcome to CR.

 

[Mus Zibii]

It was becaise it was the most widely accepted rendering into English that they picked it up. Theu do not object to Yahwah or Yahveh or similar either.

Then why the doctrine of 'they changed it to deliberately mislead the world'? I've read pamphlet after pamphlet on that subject.

Jesus never called himself the "I AM" as in identity but used it to show his age. "before Abraham was I am" or I have been

I addressed that in another thread.

Their Bible the "New World translation of the Holly Scriptures" does not take away the diety of Christ. The simplr truth is other Bibles add the diety of Christ to their Bible Versions.

I disagree with the first contention but agree with the second. Doctrine, especially of the trinity was clearly added late in the life of the gospel. And even as late as the english translations there have been sly maneuvering of commas and such to cement the doctrines of the translators. But the NW does much of the same for their own benefit.

There is no secret book.

I'd like to add to that, that currently Darbyists (the major and rapidly growing sect of Christianity in America, who claims even the President as a member) happily supplement their bible with literature consisting of far worse things than the JWs or anyone else could ever imagine. They practically turn Jesus into a terrorist.

The sad part ab out this is that those that oppose JWs have been lied too.

Even though I disagree with JWs doctrine, I can attest to that. I've had Mormon friends who's religion totally blows my mind with its outrageous doctrine, but the crap that other 'mainstream' sects of Christianity libel them with is ridiculous.

Welcome aboard, by the way.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, ben57, and welcome to CR!

Kind Regards also to Mus Zibii!

I'd like to add to that, that currently Darbyists (the major and rapidly growing sect of Christianity in America, who claims even the President as a member) happily supplement their bible with literature consisting of far worse things than the JWs or anyone else could ever imagine. They practically turn Jesus into a terrorist.

I do not wish to sidetrack this discussion, I am learning a great deal. Would you mind supporting this statement?

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

It isn't exactly clear that a majority of early "Christians" could be said to "worship" Jesus or think of him as an embodiment of distinct entity "God." The "Aryan heresy", as the literalists came to call it, was certainly as widespread and probably moreso than the literalist view of Jesus in the first and second centuries C.E. Indeed, it has never been eradicated despite concerted attempts by the Roman Empire and Catholic Europe to do so. The Albigensian Crusade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade) of the early 13th Century, in which the leaders of Europe murdered tens of thousands of Cathar men, women and children was part of the ongoing oppression of those who refused to recognize the literal belief in the crucifixtion and resurrection and the "deity" of Jesus. It was nothing more than a continuation of the Gnostic christian tradition that the literlists had been fighting since the first and second centuries C.E.

The world is seeing and will continue to see a revival of interest in Gnosticism and the "Aryan heresy" as more people discover and read the scrolls found at Nag Hammadi.

So Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs concerning the "deity" of Jesus is not "new" nor is it "non-christian" necessarily. That JW belief may be consistent with the authors of the earliest epistles and "gospels" and early scholars in the "christian" tradition.

 

[Mus Zibii]

I do not wish to sidetrack this discussion, I am learning a great deal. Would you mind supporting this statement?

Sure! I'm assuming you mean about Darbyists' extra-biblical stuff. The first thing that comes to mind are the Tim Lahaye books that have been riding the best-seller list for awhile now. According to the Darbyist doctrine, the gospel Jesus was just meant for the people of the era in which Jesus was suppose to have existed. The 'REAL' Christianity is the doomsday stuff, and separating the believers from the infidels and inventing all sorts of torment for non-Darbyists to incur in the afterlife.

I apologize in advance to any Darbyists who think I've misrepresented their faith. While I feel like I'm doing it justice, there's always room for a member of a sect to point out that the radical branch shouldn't represent the whole. That's no less true for Darbyists, I'm sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby

 

[Mus Zibii]

The Albigensian Crusade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade)

I spent almost an hour once trying to remember the name of that. I even looked on wikipedia.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Mus Zibii!

Sure! I'm assuming you mean about Darbyists' extra-biblical stuff. The first thing that comes to mind are the Tim Lahaye books that have been riding the best-seller list for awhile now. According to the Darbyist doctrine, the gospel Jesus was just meant for the people of the era in which Jesus was suppose to have existed. The 'REAL' Christianity is the doomsday stuff, and separating the believers from the infidels and inventing all sorts of torment for non-Darbyists to incur in the afterlife.

OK, I better understand now what it is you meant. But is this really some "secret" series of books held on a level with scripture? I mean, some non-intellectuals (to be polite) might assume they are gospel, but surely the vast majority understand them to be a man's interpretation of what he believes is how the "end time" will unfold. I have not read the books by LaHaye, and have no intention of doing so, predominantly because my take on the "rapture" differs from him and so many others. I do have friends and associates who do agree with his take, and are familiar with LaHaye's work, but I don't think any of them see these books as "secret gospel." So I'm not sure it is fair to equate with what was being presented of a JW "secret gospel," although in fairness this is the first I have heard of such a thing.

Just my observation, ignore the man behind the curtain...

 

[Mus Zibii]

Oh, no, sorry, I misspoke. When I replied to Ben's comment on secret books, I digressed into the realm of the extra-biblical. Although! The Darbyists do have Darby and his writing, but all he'd claim to be is a 'revealer' of the holy writ. There's the rumor of books on the 'secret' rapture in Dispensationalism, but that's rumor and not very substantial. Protestants, loyal to the concept of reformation actually have a phobia of everything non-King James Version.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Mus Zibii!

Thank you for the reply!

There's the rumor of books on the 'secret' rapture in Dispensationalism, but that's rumor and not very substantial. Protestants, loyal to the concept of reformation actually have a phobia of everything non-King James Version.

So much for avoiding sidetracks...
OK, my understanding of "dispensationalism" (including the wikipedia listing) involves delineating time on Earth to semi-distinct eras. In effect, a dispensationalist may have nothing to do at all with "rapture" and Darby.

Further, if I may be allowed, an all-inclusive "phobia" among protestants of anything other than the King James Bible is not fully accurate either. As I have pointed out elsewhere, as a generic protestant, I do hold the King James for ease of reference. But it is not the "be all and end all" of any serious Bible student. The writers of the New Testament, or the Old Testament for that matter, certainly did not write in Elizabethan English.

Thinking in absolutes is a natural thing among humans, in my opinion. But it is not fully accurate thinking, and it creates false dilemmas. Once faced with challenges of human interpretation, far too many walk away thinking the Bible is "wrong." Or it is "right." Which one?

The answer, I believe, is both.

 

[Mus Zibii]

Well, like I said before, everyone thinks ther faith is misrepresented by this one or that one. And every such argument is valid. Call me cynical, but I look at that as the exception that proves the rule.