Locking the Theosophy Thread

"However Blavatsky also claims that Semitic peoples have become "degenerate in spirituality" and asserts that some peoples are "semi-animal creatures". These latter include "the Tasmanians, a portion of the Australians and a mountain tribe in China." There are also "considerable numbers of the mixed Lemuro-Atlantean peoples produced by various crossings with such semi-human stocks -- e.g., the wild men of Borneo, the Veddhas of Ceylon, most of the remaining Australians, Bushmen, Negritos, Andaman Islanders, etc.


Blavatsky connects physical race with spiritual attributes constantly throughout her works


Blavatsky also called the physical Aryan race "the 'cream' of the fourth race", which "gravitated more and more toward the apex of physical and intellectual evolution", asserting that the Aryan fifth root race corresponds to "the final adjustment of the human organism -- which became perfect and symmetrical only in the Fifth Race."


Netscape Search


How racist does racist have to be?


s.
 
No entry on Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy for Theosophy or Mrs. Blavatsky, but under "Henry Sidgwick" (an "ethical philosopher"), one finds this:

If much of Sidgwick's psychical research today looks rather gullible, it must be allowed that his positive conclusions were always very cautious and guarded, and that his work in fact had an overwhelmingly negative, destructive effect, akin to that of recent debunkers of parapsychology. The Sidgwick Group exposed one fraud after another, including the fraudulent claims of Madame Blavatsky and the Theosophical movement, though Theosophists continue to dispute this. Indeed, Theosophy remains an influential “New Age” form of the esoteric spiritualism that Sidgwick found attractive (given its concern with the common mystical core of all religions) but impossible to defend (Oppenheim, 1985).

Ref: Henry Sidgwick (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
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Snoopy said:
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How racist does racist have to be?


s.
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Snoopy said:
Not hard to link the two, since they are in bed together.

HELENA BLAVATSKY: HOW A FRAUD INSPIRED THE NAZIS

s.
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Snoopy, the Netscape source you link to appears to contradict both the assertion that the Theosophy society is institutionally racist, and appears to disclaim that Theosophy directly influenced the Nazi's, instead being used by a Lanz von Liebenfels who developed the Aryan philosophy that the Nazi's used:

Blavatsky claimed that "The occult doctrine admits of no such divisions as the Aryan and the Semite, accepting even the Turanian with ample reservations. The Semites, especially the Arabs, are later Aryans—degenerate in spirituality and perfected in materiality.". However, this statement was not made in a spirit of attacking any ethnicity. In fact, the main purpose of the Theosophical Society was "To form a nucleus of the universal brotherhood of humanity without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste, or colour", and the Society's membership actually includes members of all nations, races and religions. Guido von List (and his followers such as Lanz von Liebenfels) later took up some of Blavatsky's theories, mixing them with nationalism to formulate Ariosophy, a precursor of nazism. Ariosophy empasized intellectual expositions of racial evolution. The Thule Society was one of several German occult groups drawing on Ariosophy to preach Aryan supremacy. It provides a direct link between occult racial theories and the racial ideology of Hitler and the emerging Nazi party."
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What seems to be increasingly clear is that Blavatsky is variously attributed with comments that could be perceived as racist, whereas Theosophy itself as a religious group does not appear to endorse any such thing.
 
While it is troublesome to say the least to attempt to impute "degrees of spiritual realization" to particular racial or ethnic groups, not to mention just plain wrong, the notion buried within Theosophy's mythology of continual evolution in degree of humanity's ability to attain to profounder or fuller spiritual awareness has continued to be around since Blavatsky's days and particularly notable within New Age circles. Heck, even Ken Wilber is essentially proposing such a thing in his old classic "Up From Eden," in which he attempts to show that various cultuural epochs of humanity were related to various "stages" of spiritual understanding. Of course, I'm not so sure that he didn't way over-reach on that and make all kinds of inaccurate assumptions in coming up with that. Whether humanity as a whole can or is evolving in its ability to become ever more conscious of Reality is an interesting question without any chance of being objectively studied me thinks.:) earl
 
earl said:
While it is troublesome to say the least to attempt to impute "degrees of spiritual realization" to particular racial or ethnic groups, not to mention just plain wrong, the notion buried within Theosophy's mythology of continual evolution in degree of humanity's ability to attain to profounder or fuller spiritual awareness has continued to be around since Blavatsky's days and particularly notable within New Age circles.
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Well we can say thats as old ager as the hills too;)!!
 
I said:
What seems to be increasingly clear is that Blavatsky is variously attributed with comments that could be perceived as racist, whereas Theosophy itself as a religious group does not appear to endorse any such thing.
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Would it be ok to give credit to a religion that was founded by a racist and fraud?
 
Hi everybody!

I thought I would give an explanation of the statement

"...the Aryan fifth root race corresponds to "the final adjustment of the human organism -- which became perfect and symmetrical only in the Fifth Race."

--> According to Theosophy, various variations and downright abominations of what was considered "human" existed prior to the estalishment of humanity as we know it today. It is said that beings like the satyr (half-human half-goat), centaur (half-human half-horse), mermaid (half-human half-fish), the giant one-eyed Cyclops, etc., are said to have actually existed. Perfection refers to humans having two eyes, two arms, two legs, etc., about 4 to 6 feet tall, etc. This standardization was finally achieved with the fifth race, and all other "variations" disappeared.

It is said that the battles between the giants and today-sized humans were terrible. Who was the fellow in Greek mythlogy that landed on that island and battled giants? Even the Bible mentions giants, and tells the story of David and Goliath, a story of a battle between a giant and today-sized human. It has been said that all of humanity breathed a great sight of relief when the last giant was finally wiped out.

Theosophy also teaches the idea of reincarnation, which wipes out the idea and advantage of the idea of "racial superiority" (as the term is used by the average person today). The idea that a Nazi can be forced to reincarnate as a Jewish person (which I am sure has happened) neutralizes the idea of "racial superiority" (as the term is used by the average person today).

Theosophy defines the word race differently than the way it is used by the average person today. Mixing the two different definitions leads to the misunderstandings that are popping up in this thread.
 
Postmaster said:
Would it be ok to give credit to a religion that was founded by a racist and fraud?
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Well...would you give credence to any religion where its major figures owned slaves? That takes us all through all of Judaism, nearly two millennia of Christianity, and well past the Golden Age of Islam. :)

We have to be very careful judging history according to modern cultural values - after all, no doubt the future will judge us, too.

Blavatsky looks increasingly like an object of her times - but whatever the criticisms of that, the religious philosophy that developed since then appears to have moved on since. There appear to have been a number of people who wrote extensively and took Theosophy in a certain direction that may or may not reflect Blavatsky's original ideal, but either way, as a religious philosophy, Theosophy does not appear to directly promote racial hatred.


ADDED: Nick, you might want to get the Theosophists to speak of "species" rather than "race". :)
 
Brian,

I, too, have been thinking about the use of "race." I think I would go with "ethnic differences" to describe what people here are calling race. Then there is the question of what to call the black, white, and yellow "races." Theosophy does not use the word "race" to refer to them.
 
Avi said:
Poo, is there any anthropological or archeological evidence for the past existence of the 20-60 ft. humans, whom may have built Stonehenge, which is so central to the Theosophical hypothesis ???
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No. The current evidence suggests that Stonehenge was a monument to the dead and used to celebrate the rebirth of the sun at the solstice as well as to connect to the ancestors at these times. They have now found a wood henge and lots of houses not too far away, indicating that the living lived at wood henge when they were briefly visiting en masse and the dead lived at stone henge. Which makes a lot of sense symbolically.

The dominant theory supported by experimentation is that people selected and partly shaped the stones where they found them, then transported them on logs (rolling the stone along the top), and maneuvering them into place with inclined planes and ropes, combined with deep pits dug ahead of time.

Some members of the Pagan community believe that they were erected through more magical means, but still by pre-Celtic local peoples.

I didn't know anyone believed they were built by giants until I heard of Theosophy, if that is indeed what is believed.
 
mmm 82 bluestones some 4 tonnes dragged, shipped [?] in any case travelled 240 miles from sw wales to stonehenge.....circa 2000 BC ? the mind boggles
 
Actually, I've seen it demonstrated that it was completely possible and not with that many people, with very simple tools. It just is a lot of work.

I think we should not underestimate what people can do when they are determined to accomplish something. There's actually a tremendous amount that is possible with manpower and simple tools- inclined plane, wheels or logs, rope, levers, and pulleys.

I think most of the obstacle to thinking it is possible is our modern aversion to hard physical labor and group projects that take longer than one generation to complete. Because our own modern culture promotes laziness and immediate gratification, and has a lack of long-term communal and ancestral perspective, we have a hard time imagining humans who worked really, really hard on stuff they'd never get to use themselves. But just because we don't do this doesn't mean it is impossible. Far from it.

To me, Stonehenge and the other megalithic monuments all over the world are testimony to an era when humans first discovered the stars in a deep way and were willing and able to honor them. Yes, it was extremely hard, dangerous, and physical work all over the world. But if the stars were your gods/goddesses, if you were mystically connected to them... then no gift is too great. That's just my own intuitive understanding of it. As a mystic, I don't discount the idea that some energy/magic work might have been used, but I am pretty positive that humans alone did these works and that they marked an era of human cognitive and spiritual development.
 
Avi said:
Poo, is there any anthropological or archeological evidence for the past existence of the 20-60 ft. humans, whom may have built Stonehenge, which is so central to the Theosophical hypothesis ???
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path_of_one said:
No. The current evidence suggests that Stonehenge was a monument to the dead and used to celebrate the rebirth of the sun at the solstice as well as to connect to the ancestors at these times. They have now found a wood henge and lots of houses not too far away, indicating that the living lived at wood henge when they were briefly visiting en masse and the dead lived at stone henge. Which makes a lot of sense symbolically.

The dominant theory supported by experimentation is that people selected and partly shaped the stones where they found them, then transported them on logs (rolling the stone along the top), and maneuvering them into place with inclined planes and ropes, combined with deep pits dug ahead of time.

Some members of the Pagan community believe that they were erected through more magical means, but still by pre-Celtic local peoples.

I didn't know anyone believed they were built by giants until I heard of Theosophy, if that is indeed what is believed.
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Thanks Poo, I did not believe the story about the giants and Stonehenge, but I am not an expert in anthropology or archeology, so I appreciate your analysis.
 
Brian, despite my considerable disagreement with Nick on this thread, I would like to express my appreciation to you for your role in trying to bring balance to the argument.

I still believe that Theosophy is largely about racial superiority, but I also think that as part of an interfaith community, Nick has the right to express his opinions without ridicule.

I hope that through this sort of discussion, real change can occur.
 
in this article the importance and influence of Blavatsky is disputed concerning nazism, it seems they were influenced by many other occult and aryan societies [eg rosicrusian and thule] and by the theories of marxism [himself a jew]; enjoying the youtube vids posted by snoopy.

THE OCCULT AND THE THIRD REICH
 
And Rosicrusian occult is linked with ancient Greek philosophy and Pythagoras so I read somewhere.
 
path_of_one said:
Actually, I've seen it demonstrated that it was completely possible and not with that many people, with very simple tools. It just is a lot of work.

I think we should not underestimate what people can do when they are determined to accomplish something. There's actually a tremendous amount that is possible with manpower and simple tools- inclined plane, wheels or logs, rope, levers, and pulleys.

I think most of the obstacle to thinking it is possible is our modern aversion to hard physical labor and group projects that take longer than one generation to complete. Because our own modern culture promotes laziness and immediate gratification, and has a lack of long-term communal and ancestral perspective, we have a hard time imagining humans who worked really, really hard on stuff they'd never get to use themselves. But just because we don't do this doesn't mean it is impossible. Far from it.

To me, Stonehenge and the other megalithic monuments all over the world are testimony to an era when humans first discovered the stars in a deep way and were willing and able to honor them. Yes, it was extremely hard, dangerous, and physical work all over the world. But if the stars were your gods/goddesses, if you were mystically connected to them... then no gift is too great. That's just my own intuitive understanding of it. As a mystic, I don't discount the idea that some energy/magic work might have been used, but I am pretty positive that humans alone did these works and that they marked an era of human cognitive and spiritual development.
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Speaking of a new era of human cognitive and spiritual development, Kim, wondering if you have ever read Ken Wilber's attempt to take a quasi-anthropological look at the issue of how and whether humanity's cognitive (consciousness) and spiritual understandings have evolved over the millenia in his book, "Up from Eden." His contention, though quite controversial in many respects, is that it has but bases his proposition on the assumption that some spiritual understandings are deeper-truer than others. But given your unique position as both a trained anthropologist and an intuitve-mystic would love your impressions of this book. Of course, if you haven't read it yet be warned-it's like most of his books-long and chock full of ideas such that one cannot gulp it down quickly. If you ever do read it, I'd be quite interested in your reactions. thanks, earl
 
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