The Bread of Life

[iBrian]

Come on, now, folks - let's leave the personal insults off the forums, thanks.

 

[GlorytoGod]

what about the life of bread ? surely that would interesting

 

[wil]

And yet where I offer philosophy and theology as a reasoned and seasoned foundation of belief, you can respond with nothing but sophistry and bile.

A word of wisdom: If you can't think of anything constructive to say — best say nothing.

Namaste Thomas,

I don't object and haven't objected to your philosophy, theology, or reasoned and seasoned discussions on belief.

I only object (and truly it is evidently something I need to work on, so heck I'll thank you for that) I only object to your endings, your last digs which are of the ilk of being the only one and true religion, or smarter folks have tried....those things are what irk me, and those are the only things I've pointed out.

Folks like to lay claim to the 'oh it is Catholic bashing', but I've been here and lived with the claims of not being Christian, not following Christ, not believing in the Bible, 'get behind me satan' and all the rest... So for some reason, I'm supposed to have thick skin.

Again, you may decide to call me a liar when I say I appreciate your posts... that would be your perception, it is not mine as I truly do. It just turns my stomach when someone with so much knowledge and understanding jumps up on the pedestal and belittles others rather than stick to the discussion.

 

[Dream]

If Union with the Divine is the object of true philosophy, it is the property of the ascetic, for what is generally forgotten is that philosophy contained a very important and vital aspect: theurgy — the necessary ascetic disciplines to attain knowledge.

The flight of the alone to the Alone, as the Neoplatonists would have it, was simply beyond the capacity of most of humanity, who do not possess sufficient intellectual rigour and the will to self-discipline to attain such a state of asceticism, are a priori condemned to perdition — so too is the implicit message of the doctrine of Pelagius that Augustine refuted so strongly — for if Pelagius is right, then we are all lost ...

This is why the gnostics split humanity into pneumatics, psychics and hylics — only pneumatics are saved, psychics are saved by attachment to a pneumatic, and hylics, the vast majority of humanity, are irredeemably written off and lost.

How does it follow that we are all lost if Pelagius is right? He rejected original sin, but how would that necessarily mean the world is divided into ascetics, mid-ascetics, and losers? I think you referred to the gnostics has having made that mistake, but they were not exactly the model for logic. (I'm not suggesting asceticism is healthy.)

 

[Netti-Netti]

Now that we have at least three other topics going in the same thread, I thought I'd quickly summarize where we are with this discussion so far:

Catholic practice - i.e., the so-called "Sacrifice of the Mass" (as it's called by the Counsel of Trent) - has no scriptural basis. In particular, there is no foundation for the Eucharistic sacrament as a method for the remission of sins that is equivalent to Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Importantly, Jesus did not authorize communion as a bloodless sacrifice that is is identical in power to his crucifixion. Further, the Pauline passages I cited previously (Hebrews) specifically gainsay the need for any such sacrificial ritual on the grounds that Jesus' one perfect sacrifice was complete and final. In addition to the the previously noted passages from Hebrews, I call your attention to Peter: "Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous" (1 Peter 3:18) As a result of the one perfect sacrifice, priestly conduct along the lines of sacrificial ritual became unnecessary.

The Council of Trent is considered a landmark communication of Church doctrine. Its Canons and Decrees condemned Prostestants as heretics on account of their unwillingness to recognize the Sacrifice of the Mass as having expiation potential. Given that the "Sacrifice of the Mass" is inconsistent with Scripture, it follows logically that the Church's reaction to Protestant criticisms concerning this matter was unsupported, as well.

In fact, the "Sacrifice of the Mass" contradicts both new Testament and Old Testament injunctions against sacrificial rituals that are described in their respective scriptures as unacceptable to the L-rd. Nevertheless, the eucharist is said to "perform the function of a sacrifice" and as being neither "an independent addition" to Jesus' sacrifice nor essential to it. According to Catholic authority cited previously, the church ritual "can only be the one self-same sacrifice of the Cross" !!

Again, bloodless re-enactment of Jesus sacrifice would seem to be a parody of the real event, yet it is presumed to be functionally equivalent. The church's sacramental doctrine shows complete disdain for both the Scripture and Jesus' mission. Rejection of sacrifice was already evident in the Old Testament.

 

[wil]

interesting discussion here....

The history for me is that as a child I was raised Protestant, but we'd inevitably attend Catholic Church with some friends, or weddings or funerals and whenever twas time for communion...we sat. While everyone was up in line, we sat. Now talking to cousins or other kids they told us about the juice/wine and the cracker/wafer and mostly it was something they 'had' to do, their parents made them, they really weren't interested/didn't know...and this was upto my teens...even so for me it seemed like something I missed out on, I wasn't in the club.

Now in my late teens/twenties out on my own, attending various churches, looking to see if I could find a home..I stopped at some Catholic and Episcopal churches...and occasionally got up, stood in line, watched what went before me followed suit. It was different, a little strange and the whole blood and body thing...didn't sit well. Obviously still not a member of the club.

Flash to a Unity service years later...a decade even. By then anytime there was communion, I didn't go...I wasn't in that club...it didn't resonate. Even though my church now did this at Midnight Christmas eve, on Easter Sunrise, Good Friday, Maundy Thursday... I didn't participate. Then one service the preacher spoke after communion. And she spoke of the blood of Christ, the wine representing the spiritual/heavenly and the body of Christ the bread representing the material/earthly and together representing His place, our place on the border between the two, spiritual beings having an earthly experience for the benefit of our soul, and the communion representing us joining in community on this path... And there I sat thinking "Wait, I'm part of the club, why didn't the service come before the line??"

And since then I've explored more...and I take communion...I am part of that club, I am on that path. And one thing I've mentioned before that I thought interesting. Jesus dipped the bread and gave it to Judas...go and do what you must...Judas left to do his bidding. Judas got the bread (grocked the physical)...but didn't get the wine (didn't understand the spiritual implications of the Christ)

(I'll apoligize now for all my opinion, sophistry and bile)

 

[seattlegal]

Flash to a Unity service years later...a decade even. By then anytime there was communion, I didn't go...I wasn't in that club...it didn't resonate. Even though my church now did this at Midnight Christmas eve, on Easter Sunrise, Good Friday, Maundy Thursday... I didn't participate. Then one service the preacher spoke after communion. And she spoke of the blood of Christ, the wine representing the spiritual/heavenly and the body of Christ the bread representing the material/earthly and together representing His place, our place on the border between the two, spiritual beings having an earthly experience for the benefit of our soul, and the communion representing us joining in community on this path... And there I sat thinking "Wait, I'm part of the club, why didn't the service come before the line??"

And since then I've explored more...and I take communion...I am part of that club, I am on that path. And one thing I've mentioned before that I thought interesting. Jesus dipped the bread and gave it to Judas...go and do what you must...Judas left to do his bidding. Judas got the bread (grocked the physical)...but didn't get the wine (didn't understand the spiritual implications of the Christ)

(I'll apoligize now for all my opinion, sophistry and bile)

There are many different symbolic representations in the communion that you can contemplate regarding Jesus: the cup as representing the heart, the bread being unleavened being a couple of examples that can pull memories of different things Jesus said to mind.

 

[Netti-Netti]

... what matters most [IMO] is whether we allow the Spirit He possessed to dwell in our own hearts.

It seem to me that remythologizing is an attempt to restore or preserve the supernatural sanctity of something that is in danger of becoming a
meaningless ritual.

Communion is what the Catholic mass and liturgy is all about. Most of the mass is actually preparation for it. I'm glad we had a chance to explore this and related concepts.

 

[seattlegal]

It seem to me that remythologizing is an attempt to restore or preserve the supernatural sanctity of something that is in danger of becoming a
meaningless ritual.

Communion is what the Catholic mass and liturgy is all about. Most of the mass is actually preparation for it. I'm glad we had a chance to explore this and related concepts.

Good point. Anyone remember what lengths Confucianism went to (and stooped to) to enforce ritual (in an effort to preserve ritual?)

The Tao Te Ching (yeah, I know this is the Christianity forum) says that ritual is the beginning of confusion. (Hence, my nickname for Confucianism is Confusionism.)

Christianity is not immune to this sort of thing, imo.

Maybe that was the point Jesus was making in using the scary analogy of eating his flesh and drinking his blood--many became confused over it.

 

[Avi]

Netti-Netti gathers her resources and offers an argument.

Netti is a woman ??? I had no idea .

Now that I know that, I have to try to figure out her religion ?

(Just teasing here Netti ).