Sufism - The Truth About the "truth"

[c0de]

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@ Netti

I dont see how you can derive that meaning from this passage. If the words were arranged like this: "show us the right way through those on whom you have have bestowed your grace" then you would have a case, but that is not what is stated.

In fact, this surah which you cited is supposed to be recited in the beginning of every ritual prayer of the Muslim, to remind us to rely on God alone. In it the Muslim is told to ask God directly for spiritual guidance.

 

[Netti-Netti]

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@ Netti

I dont see how you can derive that meaning from this passage. If the words were arranged like this: "show us the right way through those on whom you have have bestowed your grace" then you would have a case, but that is not what is stated.

In fact, this surah which you cited is supposed to be recited in the beginning of every ritual prayer of the Muslim, to remind us to rely on God alone. In it the Muslim is told to ask God directly for spiritual guidance.

And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction. (Koran 51:49)

(T)each (thy Message) for teaching benefits the Believers. (Koran 51:55)
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We are to be teachers and students for each other.

 

[c0de]

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(T)each (thy Message) for teaching benefits the Believers. (Koran 51:55)

The person being addressed by God here is the prophet, not the sufi "saints". The significance of this verse is that the Muslims are told to look to the Prophet alone for instruction in spiritual matters. But there is more to this:

We already know that the Prophet's only job was to deliver the Quran (and exemplify it) therefore it all comes back to developing an understanding of the Quran and applying it in this life, without the help of any "spiritual guides", priests, imams or these sufi saints.

And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction. (Koran 51:49)

This verse is telling us how to receive instruction directly from God. We are told to observe reality through the words of the Quran, being attentive and mindful. Pondering on our nature and the words of the Quran, which are the signs of God. This is the surest way to guidance as there is no teacher here other then God Himself.

We will show Our signs to them in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient that your Lord witnesses all things?
41:53
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[Netti-Netti]

c0de,

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The person being addressed by God here is the prophet, not the sufi "saints". The significance of this verse is that the Muslims are told to look to the Prophet alone for instruction in spiritual matters.

We find a directive being given to the Companions of the Cave, who were followers/believers: "And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord."

The fact that G-d is addressing the Prophet does not rule out the message of the other Prophets before him. Nor does it exclude other instructive/supportive relationships. The specific detail of the account doesn't change the general meaning of the directive. This passage (Koran 51:55) attests to the importance of spiritual transmission/communication.

But there is more to this:

We already know that the Prophet's only job was to deliver the Quran (and exemplify it) therefore it all comes back to developing an understanding of the Quran and applying it in this life, without the help of any "spiritual guides", priests, imams or these sufi saints.

I was under the impression that Islam recognizes the other Prophets. For example, Joseph is recognized to have been given prophetic capabilities and the gift of interpretation (Koran 12:06).

This verse (about pairs being created) is telling us how to receive instruction directly from God.

The speaker in this instance is G-d, who is reflecting on Creation, which took the form of pairs. G-d is not created. He is Creator. When talking about the world of created pairs, He would not be talking about himself because, as Creator, He would not be among the created pairs. You and I would be among created pairs as an example of a teacher/student pairing with the intended purpose of communicating the message:"That ye may receive instruction."

We are told to observe reality through the words of the Quran, being attentive and mindful.

ok

Pondering on our nature and the words of the Quran, which are the signs of God. This is the surest way to guidance as there is no teacher here other then God Himself.

Ultimately there is no other teacher, but He can teach in various ways.

Sometimes it's hard to distinguish the interpretation from the Scripture. Actually, when I interact with scripture I may get different meanings at different times. At the moment I see no problem. What was revealed to Muhammad would apply to anyone who would seek G-d's will.

And so we can see our role as similar to what the Prophet saw for himself: "teach them that which G-d taught you." To me this makes good sense. If you discover heavenly things, you want to share them. In particular, we discover what it is to truly be a person: it means having a right relationship with the divine. It is natural that one would want to share this. I think it's also natural to want to develop the spiritual implications. A teacher/student relationship is one possible modality for that.

We emulate the Prophet's relation to the Master Teacher by seeking divine knowledge in all circumstance and in all relationships. The Koran refers to the "beautiful fellowship" that is God's "bounty." (4:70) It sounds like "The Kingdom in our midst" to me. The fellowship seems to be fairly inclusive: "All who obey and the messenger are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good)."

Note that "All who obey and the messenger" are in effect subsumed under the same pairing - those who are in the company of others who are part of the fellowship.

 

[c0de]

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@ Netti

Ultimately there is no other teacher, but He can teach in various ways.

Sometimes it's hard to distinguish the interpretation from the Scripture. Actually, when I interact with scripture I may get different meanings at different times. At the moment I see no problem. What was revealed to Muhammad would apply to anyone who would seek G-d's will.

And so we can see our role as similar to what the Prophet saw for himself: "teach them that which G-d taught you." To me this makes good sense. If you discover heavenly things, you want to share them. In particular, we discover what it is to truly be a person: it means having a right relationship with the divine. It is natural that one would want to share this. I think it's also natural to want to develop the spiritual implications. A teacher/student relationship is one possible modality for that.

We emulate the Prophet's relation to the Master Teacher by seeking divine knowledge in all circumstance and in all relationships. The Koran refers to the "beautiful fellowship" that is God's "bounty." (4:70) It sounds like "The Kingdom in our midst" to me. The fellowship seems to be fairly inclusive: "All who obey and the messenger are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good)."

Note that "All who obey and the messenger" are in effect subsumed under the same pairing - those who are in the company of others who are part of the fellowship..

I suspect that you have either misunderstood, or forgotten the point of this thread. This is not about sharing the knowledge you have been given or your own point of view (If I disagreed with that, why would I have started this thread?)

I am simply stating that the particular form of the master/novice relationships has led to institutionalization. And that this particular type of a relationship is not sanctioned by the Quran because it requires an act of faith on the part of the student to trust the "superiority" of the teacher. As you yourself have already acknowledged that the criteria for verifying their claims is vague.

The point is that this concept (of sharing knowledge) has been abused by corrupt practitioners to get a stranglehold on power over people. Such principles have permeated all of the sects in Islam, whereby the followers grant the "leaders" (imams, scholars etc.) undue power of interpretation and authority, and this is what has led to blindness. Muslims today feel it unnecessary to study the Quran themselves, but would rather depend on the opinions and interpretations of the sectarian "scholars" or the "imam" at their local mosque. The Muslims today are not without their own priestly class, which is exactly something the Prophets came to destroy (refer to Max Weber)

We find a directive being given to the Companions of the Cave...

No we don't. The story of the companions in the cave ended at verse #25.
This directive is again given to the Prophet, not the companions in the cave.

The specific detail of the account doesn't change the general meaning of the directive.

But you are adding (or inferring) that general meaning which is not there in literal form. You have no proof other then an assertion.

You and I would be among created pairs as an example of a teacher/student pairing with the intended purpose of communicating the message:"That ye may receive instruction."

Once again you are adding meaning into the words which is not there, and ignoring the meaning that is directly tied to this verse:

The speaker in this instance is G-d, who is reflecting on Creation, which took the form of pairs. G-d is not created. He is Creator. When talking about the world of created pairs, He would not be talking about himself because, as Creator, He would not be among the created pairs.

The Quran is not God's personal journal dude. The point of those words is to call our attention to nature that He created. God is telling us to reflect on His creation, and for a reason (to tell us to derive instruction from it, directly).

Nor does it exclude other instructive/supportive relationships.

But I dont consider the master/novice relationship of Sufism to be "instructive" or "supportive". The point being made here is that it is not sanctioned by the Quran, and neither you nor DITB has yet shown it to be so.

The fact that G-d is addressing the Prophet does not rule out the message of the other Prophets before him.

Did I say it did? I am not discussing the case of prophets here.

I was under the impression that Islam recognizes the other Prophets. For example, Joseph is recognized to have been given prophetic capabilities and the gift of interpretation (Koran 12:06).

Of course it does. But we are required by God to listen to prophets as an act of faith. And like I said, the master/novice relationship between sufis and their followers also requires an act of faith, only this faith is not sanctioned by the Quran.

 

[Netti-Netti]

I am simply stating that the particular form of the master/novice relationships has led to institutionalization. And that this particular type of a relationship is not sanctioned by the Quran because it requires an act of faith on the part of the student to trust the "superiority" of the teacher.

I can see where this might be concern for someone who does not make a distinction between trusting G-d and trusting a teacher, for someone who thinks the human relationship could be a substitute for the essential Friendship with G-d, for someone who thinks the teacher is more important than the teaching, or for someone who has visions of how they can possess/manipulate/trounce the teacher by self-humiliation/reverence/clever challenges to the teacher's authority. I'm not so sure whether there would be a problem.when these things are kept in perspective.

...(W) we are required by God to listen to prophets as an act of faith. And like I said, the master/novice relationship between sufis and their followers also requires an act of faith, only this faith is not sanctioned by the Quran.

I suspect those who become "novices" or disciples are looking for guidance on the right path to Allah and would not expect that guidance to be equivalent to The Path. Likewise, lessons in Tasawwuf (trust/love of G-d) would not replace all other forms of devotional practice, let alone the essential relationship. In short, there are no competing alliances.

In a real spiritual relationship, the hierarchy issue would be a nonissue. Those involved are just too immersed in the teaching or the process of learning. Which might mean that we are trying to be dogmatic about a nonissue.

 

[c0de]

Which might mean that we are trying to be dogmatic about a nonissue.

So people keep telling me

In a real spiritual relationship, the hierarchy issue would be a nonissue.

I think hierarchy is a necessity in any such relationship (especially in spiritual matters) because understanding comes after submission (kinda like "The Karate Kid" remember that one?) This is exactly why the Quran advises us that this submission should be offered to God directly.

The sufi traditions as Mr. Rahman pointed out, mostly got their justifications from the hadith, and weak narrations at that. And now such institutions are present in every sect.

 

[wil]

I guess this doesn't resonate to a lot of people, but to me it is about tesults. Now I'm not saying the ends justify the means, but I am saying that anything that brings folks closer to G!d or a relationship with Allah are beneficial. Say someone rejects the version of Islam (or Christianity or whatever) but finds peace, solace and a connection with all that is thru Sufism.... is that so wrong?

 

[c0de]

Say someone rejects the version of Islam (or Christianity or whatever) but finds peace, solace and a connection with all that is

if that's all the person's looking for than he/she can do whatever he/she wants, yea?

Different people have their own recipes to get these "results". I would recommend the chemical route i.e. 2 pills of X, with a bump of K in the middle of a dance floor (and dont forget the glowsticks!)

 

[wil]

Well, I didn't know that was halal!

Learn something new every day.

 

[c0de]

Well, I didn't know that was halal!

Learn something new every day.

Why bother with "halal/haram" if you're getting your "results" ?

 

[Netti-Netti]

c0de,

So people keep telling me

I think hierarchy is a necessity in any such relationship (especially in spiritual matters) because understanding comes after submission (kinda like "The Karate Kid" remember that one?) This is exactly why the Quran advises us that this submission should be offered to God directly.

The sufi traditions as Mr. Rahman pointed out, mostly got their justifications from the hadith, and weak narrations at that. And now such institutions are present in every sect.

It seems there are various Sufi orders. It is unclear whether a novice's submission is required. I've had some contact with Sufi organizations in the US, which struck me as being rather informal.

The reason I brought up teacher/student relationships in my previous post is that they all involve some kind of 'submission' - maybe not very ritualized/formalized - because students are accepting the teacher's knowing something they don't know. For example learning how to recite the Koran. New Muslims are learning something they don't know, and they submit to a teacher who does.

The same line of argument applies to reading something theological written by Islamic scholars. It's not a priestly hierarchy, but there is an understanding about authority. When you teach me something, you are in that role and unless I am competing with you or trying to undermine your authority, I will accept my role as a humble student. I think the issue is sincere inquiry.

The fact that the Koran does not cover an issue makes it hard to say what a "Koranic" view is or what it would have been if the Prophet had made a point outlining criteria for student/teacher etiquette. It seems it was not enough of an issue back then.

 

[c0de]

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@ Netti

Your point is valid when you are talking about learning a skill, like how to recite the Quran (which is not all that different from learning how to read, play the piano, or how to drive a car etc. etc.) It is okay to submit to your instructor in this case because here you are not submitting to a particular dogma or spiritual perspective. In the case of the spiritual journey the normal teacher/student relationship is not proper unless the teacher is God Himself, because of the spiritual submission that this journey requires. Some verses in this thread already provide a way to receive instruction from God alone by ways of observing His signs in nature and in themselves.

The fact that the Koran does not cover an issue makes it hard to say what a "Koranic" view is or what it would have been if the Prophet had made a point outlining criteria for student/teacher etiquette.

I don't think the Quran is silent on this issue at all. The verses relating to the Jews and Christians and their dependence on their scholars and priests are a warning to Muslims. Because spiritual submission to non-prophet mortals can only lead to turning religion into an institution via fostering a priesthood.

 

[Avi]

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The verses relating to the Jews and Christians and their dependence on their scholars and priests are a warning to Muslims. Because spiritual submission to non-prophet mortals can only lead to turning religion into an institution via fostering a priesthood. Which always makes the followers spiritually lazy by making them dependent on a mortal "guide" (because depending on God alone to guide you is itself the sharpening tool for the spirit).

So do you believe that Jews and Christians are "spiritually lazy" and dependent on "mortal guides" ?

Interestingly, in the Muslim community that I have gotten to know, there is a lay Imam, and his position and approach is very similar to that of our Reform Rabbi. Does that mean the Imam has not learned the lesson of the Quran ?

 

[c0de]

So do you believe that Jews and Christians are "spiritually lazy" and dependent on "mortal guides" ?

No more or less than Muslims today. Institutionalization has afflicted all religions. Btw, I had already edited my post because I figured this would be offensive if misunderstood.

Interestingly, in the Muslim community that I have gotten to know, there is a lay Imam, and his position and approach is very similar to that of our Reform Rabbi. Does that mean the Imam has not learned the lesson of the Quran ?

Evidently, yes. Neither him, nor his "flock"... But I guess, who has these days? certainly not me...

 

[Avi]

Evidently, yes. Neither him, nor his "flock"... But I guess, who has these days?

I have to respectfully disagree.

I think he has a wisdom and nature which transcends tradition. When I first met him, he told me that some of his Muslim community were not happy with him because he does not wear a beard or the religious head cover (I think it is taqiyah ? ).

I think he is what I would call a "reform Muslim" (and I know there is technically not such a position), so you might see why I like him .

 

[c0de]

I have to respectfully disagree.

no worries (im used 2 it)

I think he has a wisdom and nature which transcends tradition. When I first met him, he told me that some of his Muslim community were not happy with him because he does not wear a beard or the religious head cover (I am sorry I do not recall the name, perhaps you can remind me, in Jewish tradition we call it a yarmulkah).

I think he is what I would call a "reform Muslim" (and I know there is technically not such a position), so you might see why I like him

I dont see how this relates to the point... but okay (lol)

 

[Avi]

I dont see how this relates to the point... but okay (lol)

Oh, it relates in that the lay Imam in my community is very much the "spiritual guide" to the Muslim community that our Rabbi is to our Jewish community.

And that does not make either community "spiritually lazy". Everyone needs spiritual guidance. Don't you agree ??

Actually, the way you edited the earlier post is much better, but it still neglects the importance of the religious leader as guide and teacher.

 

[c0de]

Oh, it relates in that the lay Imam in my community is very much the "spiritual guide" to the Muslim community that our Rabbi is to our Jewish community.

Hey DITB & Abdallah, you might wanna note this...

And that does not make either community "spiritually lazy".

sure it doesnt

 

[Avi]

When I first became involved in interfaith discussions in my community, you might find it interesting that my Rabbi told me that on many issues her position is closer to the lay Imam in our community than the more conservative Jewish leaders. How is that for non-alignment.

Those are the type of examples which are inspiring .

We had a meeting during the time of the Gaza invasion which was very interesting and somewhat tense. It could have become an unpleasant situation, but fortunately it was handled very well and we all learned a lot about interfaith dialogue !!