Sufism - The Truth About the "truth"

[wil]

Shore ya can, I've answered all your questions, tell me which one I haven't.

and doctoring that would be your highlighting what you wanted to accentuate to change the meaning..... and the snide remark is obvious. btw I am only responding so as not to allow you to continue to indicate I'm not responding.

So Allah has told you to go, but going to you is useless? Was Allah wrong?

 

[c0de]

So Allah has told you to go, but going to you is useless? Was Allah wrong?

It might be useful for other people, but I was speaking about my own experience. I go because i have to (not to get the "results" in the material world).

I've answered all your questions, tell me which one I haven't.

sure you have

the questions of mine to you, that you just quoted you never actually answered.

and doctoring that would be your highlighting what you wanted to accentuate to change the meaning.....

(lol) how does highlighting something change its meaning?

 

[wil]

Alright, now you've bored me.

And as I see it your thread was to convince me and others that Sufism is wrong and not beneficial...

Well you've passively convinced me that I prefer sufism over your agressive Muslim argument.

Oh well.

 

[c0de]

Well you've passively convinced me that I prefer sufism over your agressive Muslim argument.

rite... im the evil aggressive muslim. thnx.

if you ever get around to actually answering those objections, let me know, k?

 

[Netti-Netti]

c0de,

@ Netti

Yes, I believe there is ample evidence to suggest everyone will end up in heaven.

Previously you had written:

The verses plainly declare that Allah guide not/ will not give guidance/ will never guide to certain people who are doing certain things.​

​

Those who do not receive guidance end up in hell. If you view hell itself as a form of guidance, then it follows that everyone receives guidance and this is why everyone eventually ends up in Heaven.

If "God is the cause of everything" then... (dot dot dot) The only alternative is to say He is not in control of something, which means He is not omnipotent, and this can not be.

I think it can be of you view the omnipotence as ultimate potentiality of control.

To say that He has chosen to not be in control of something contradicts the verses I provided which clearly state that He is in control of everything and everything obeys

If the divine potentiality for control was fully effectuated, the evolving worlds would be nothing more than puppet theater but no one would be entertained - especially not G-d.

Even God Himself has not stressed this issue too much in the Quran, probably to let us mortals keep our delusions (most people need them very much).

I think the emphasis on authenticity, good works, and ethics in the Koran indicates heavy emphasis on free will. We agreed previously that ultimately it is G-d who is doing the good works. But the effectance of potential for Good requires the human's commitment and active involvement ("submission"). I think the Sufis call this "love."

 

[c0de]

Previously you had written:

I had written??? The quote you used is from DITB, not me.

I said that God guides even through misguidance, and it is not up to us (or even the Prophet) to guide who we want.

Those who do not receive guidance end up in hell. If you view hell itself as a form of guidance, then it follows that everyone receives guidance and this is why everyone eventually ends up in Heaven.

I thought we covered this already? I already said that God guides even through misguidance. In other threads I have stated that I believe hell is a necessary part of existence. Some go through it in this life, others go through it in the next. But it is finite, unlike heaven which is infinite.

If the divine potentiality for control was fully effectuated, the evolving worlds would be nothing more than puppet theater but no one would be entertained - especially not G-d.

21:16-17
And We created not the heaven and the earth and what is between them for sport.
Had We wished to take a pastime, We would have taken it from before Ourselves; by no means would We do (so).​

God didnt create the cosmos for His entertainment.

I think the emphasis on authenticity, good works, and ethics in the Koran indicates heavy emphasis on free will.We agreed previously that ultimately it is G-d who is doing the good works. But the effectance of potential for Good requires the human's commitment and active involvement ("submission"). I think the Sufis call this "love."

This does not prove free will. But you can believe in it if you wish (most do anyway).

I think it can be of you view the omnipotence as ultimate potentiality of control.

It is implied in the definition of the word.

 

[Netti-Netti]

I had written??? The quote you used is from DITB, not me.

Doesn't matter. I'm merely trying to develop the argument further to see where it goes. I'm not contrasting views or saying anyone is right or wrong.

I thought we covered this already? I already said that God guides even through misguidance.

I was restating the idea in passing to elaborate and clarify the notion of hell as a form of guidance.

God didnt create the cosmos for His entertainment.

Why did He create it? I don't get the impresion that many humans are particularly entertained.

This does not prove free will.

I think commitment and good works assume free will. There is no point in enjoining people to believe and to do good works unless they have the ability to choose these things for themselves.

In other threads I have stated that I believe hell is a necessary part of existence.

I wanted to add that when you see hell as a form of guidance, scriptural references to it can serve as reminders of divine power. This is pretty much how I see it in the Koran and the Bible. Rather simlar applications of the same idea. My next question, of couse, is: how does this compare with the Sufi idea of hell?

 

[dailogue is the best]

@ DITB

No you didnt. Not a single interpretation of a Quranic reference you provided held up under scrutiny. Your foundation is completely in the ahadith.​

What about the story of khidr ra and Moses pbuh? Is it ahadith. I started with it, I think
​

Sis, I have already stated (with references). Sufis have been executed for calling themselves God. This is a fact.

The fact is that they have been misunderstood, and still they are as u do now. I presented story of Alhallaj as an example.

I have been giving historical proof, logical and rhetorical since the beginning of this thread.

Actually, u havent, brother. U just stated that there are similarities bw Hinduism and sufism. U have no proofs that sufism/sufis are close to blasphemy.​

Fallacy: an appeal to authority. I gave you logical reasons for the fault in that interpretation and you didnt overcome those objections. Instead you have retreated into "well the scholars say...."

I did, but u stick to urs. Of course, if I have to present proofs I have to refer to someone/something of authority: Muslims scholras cant be all mistaken, brother...

If that were true then there wouldnt be any sunnis and shias would they? Sufism is just as divided over what ahadith to accept and what traditions to reject. There are many sects of sufism, some even consider drugs/alcohol as halal.

Dont forget, brother, that sunni/shia are political sects more in the first place. The division between them is : who is the right caliph after the prophet Muhammad pbuh?. As for the sunnah, which means in Arabic the tecahings of the prophets, they have no difference about.

Hence, when I say that sunni sufism is the right sufism, I refer to the sufism which take the Quran and the sunnah of the propeht Muhammad pbuh as its deep rooted founadation.
​

I have seen such words and knowledge in many places. You would be surprised. If you think Sufis have a monopoly on God's knowledge, you are mistaken. Many sufi writers, even Ghazali himself has been challenged by other thinkers. I myself dont agree with him completely on some issues.

Sufis arent infallible. They make mistakes, but their mistakes are not big: [53:32] Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, only (falling into) small faults,- verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness.

In Islam, sufis are the best ones that their writings/sayings have proved a deep divine knowledge.This fact cant be challenged, I think. Sufis present us a divine knowledge based on the Quran and the sunnah..

Point being, you can never judge a person's total moral spectrum.

Agreed: [53:32]....Therefore justify not yourselves: He knows best who it is that guards against evil." Yet, this is not an accuse to doubt everyone. The hidden is for God to judge. We treat each other at the basis of what we see/witness. Hence, if I find a good sufi (apparently), I shouldnt stop myself from getting advantage of his knowledege only bc I dont know his inner. This is for God.​

Yes there is. You are expected to do everything your master tells you because you think it will get you closer to God.

You should have clarified "everything". Novices do everything that is in accordance to the Quran and the Sunnah that his master tells him to do. The first submission is to Allah.

If God is the cause of everything, then you dont have any free will in any absolute sense.

I explianed my argument. God is the cause of everything in the sense that He gives will for us to choose. In other worsd, God can stop me from doing bad, but he doesnt. Hence, He is the cause of everything. Yet, The choice is mine. He gives us the choice. The consequences of this action is controlled by Him. So, I m just given the right to choose. That's all that we are given, brother..

And who created the "heart" of man? If God created it, and He is the cause of everything, then how is that common sense "innate" ? It is a logical impossibility.

Heart doesnt force you, brother, to do ceratin things. It is like a compass. It shows you the right direction. But, the question is ; would you listen to the compass?! There is an ego/ self that is trying hard to convince you that the other direction is better.. Now, u are in task: what to choose: heart or ego? angel/ satan? Does God want u to choose another way, but His?​

Actually, that is exactly what that means. God has already stated that He has created a certain portion of men and jinn for hell. Remember? .

Yes, brother, simply because God already knows that there are ceratin men that are going to choose self and not heart.​

God does not force, He creates. Our "innate" natures do the forcing.

Explained above

...and I am not saying He does not consider some men His friends, but those men have no right to declare themselves His friends. Its an issue of humility.

Sufis keep describing themseleves as guilty, poor to Allah, humble, servile. They are lovers, seeking the pleasure of their beloved. Have u seen any lovers showing strenght in front fo his/her beloved?​

​

 

[c0de]

.

Netti + DITB




@ Netti

Why did He create it? I don't get the impresion that many humans are particularly entertained.

Glad you asked.

Ponder on this verse:

11:119.

Except those on whom thy Lord hath bestowed His Mercy: and for this did He create them: and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled: "I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."

Interesting how first God says that He created us to have mercy on us. But then, immediately following that statement He says that He will fill Hell with men. This only makes sense if we look at Hell as a stepping stone, to something else.

I think commitment and good works assume free will.

And God's Omniscience and Omnipotence cancels it out.

There is no point in enjoining people to believe and to do good works unless they have the ability to choose these things for themselves.

Why does everything have to have a rational point? God created rationality, He does not have to obey it. Maybe we are just here because God wants it, not to prove any point. Maybe that is the only real point there is.

All I know for sure, is that when a person feels happiness, real true happiness, there is no rationality or reason that can touch him at that moment. That, is heaven. When/if we get there, we would care less if we are puppets or not.






@ DITB

Novices do everything that is in accordance to the Quran and the Sunnah that his master tells him to do. The first submission is to Allah.

You tried this approach before, and I asked you: if everything that is done is according to the Quran and Sunnah, then what do you need the "master" for? You have the Quran, and you have the Sunnah, where does sufism come into the picture?

What about the story of khidr ra and Moses pbuh? Is it ahadith. I started with it, I think

You tried to use the story to support your view but that attempt wasnt successful. I pointed out to you the flaws in that interpretation. To which you had no reply other then your interpretation was supported by scholars. This is the fallacy.

I did, but u stick to urs. Of course, if I have to present proofs I have to refer to someone/something of authority: Muslims scholras cant be all mistaken, brother...

Another fallacy. Of course they can all be mistaken.

Actually, u havent, brother. U just stated that there are similarities bw Hinduism and sufism. U have no proofs that sufism/sufis are close to blasphemy.

The idea that you can raise yourself in spiritual rank is close to blasphemy. And I have explained in detail why.

Dont forget, brother, that sunni/shia are political sects more in the first place. The division between them is : who is the right caliph after the prophet Muhammad pbuh?. As for the sunnah, which means in Arabic the tecahings of the prophets, they have no difference about.

Actually, shia and sunni practices of sunnah have significant differences. For example, Shias consider it permissible to pray 3 times a day, instead of 5. Did you know that?

Sufis arent infallible. They make mistakes, but their mistakes are not big:

How do you know? Again you are pretending like you know someone's heart.

In Islam, sufis are the best ones that their writings/sayings have proved a deep divine knowledge.This fact cant be challenged, I think. Sufis present us a divine knowledge based on the Quran and the sunnah..

lol, well I guess there is no point in continuing this discussion then

How dare I question their "deep" "divine" and "proven" knowledge...

I shouldnt stop myself from getting advantage of his knowledege only bc I dont know his inner. This is for God.

Your not going to be the one taking the advantage... I assure you.

I explianed my argument. God is the cause of everything in the sense that He gives will for us to choose. In other worsd, God can stop me from doing bad, but he doesnt. Hence, He is the cause of everything. Yet, The choice is mine. He gives us the choice. The consequences of this action is controlled by Him. So, I m just given the right to choose. That's all that we are given, brother..

Contradiction. Explain it whichever way you wish, it is a logical fallacy.

Heart doesnt force you, brother, to do ceratin things. It is like a compass. It shows you the right direction. But, the question is ; would you listen to the compass?! There is an ego/ self that is trying hard to convince you that the other direction is better.. Now, u are in task: what to choose: heart or ego? angel/ satan? Does God want u to choose another way, but His?

You can never disobey God, remember? Therefore, all ways are controlled by Him and you cant walk any other path then the one decreed for you.

Yes, brother, simply because God already knows that there are ceratin men that are going to choose self and not heart.

See above.

Have u seen any lovers showing strenght in front fo his/her beloved?

Yes.

Sufis keep describing themseleves as guilty, poor to Allah, humble, servile. They are lovers, seeking the pleasure of their beloved.

Just because someone says he is humble, doesnt make him humble. If he was really humble, he wouldnt go around showing off his "humility".







​

 

[dailogue is the best]

@ DITB

You tried this approach before, and I asked you: if everything that is done is according to the Quran and Sunnah, then what do you need the "master" for? You have the Quran, and you have the Sunnah, where does sufism come into the picture?

Because I dont have a specialized deep knowledge. My own knowledge is superficial, and still need more input. Tafseer/interpretation is another Islamic science that widens one's reading of the Quran and the sunnah. Sufi masters provide me an interpretation that has to do with "ihsan/excelence" the third pillar of Islam. The knowledge they provide has to do with heart. To make Islam more touching, and more meaningful by fusing life into rituals and practices that will turn to be boring if those practices arent companied with inner devotion.

You tried to use the story to support your view but that attempt wasnt successful. I pointed out to you the flaws in that interpretation. To which you had no reply other then your interpretation was supported by scholars. This is the fallacy.

I believe in the argument I presented, but if it is not convincing to you, then there is no problem.​

What about this very clear verse,c0de. I found it while I was reading the Quran this night: "[32:24]And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs."​

Are you still objecting that some people can give guidance by the command of God of course?! Thta was my point from the very beginning...​

Another fallacy. Of course they can all be mistaken.

All!! Really strange?!​

The idea that you can raise yourself in spiritual rank is close to blasphemy.

It isnt. It is God's promise: [29:69] And those who strive in Our (cause),- We will certainly guide them to our Paths: For verily Allah is with those who do right.​

In the Quran, there is mention of three types of souls: The commanding soul, the reproaching soul, and the peacful soul. R not this spiritual ranks?
If u object to attributing this to oneself or master, I ve pointed before that these are just causes, the real guide is God. He guides through/using certain people for that. No blasphemy.​

Actually, shia and sunni practices of sunnah have significant differences. For example, Shias consider it permissible to pray 3 times a day, instead of 5. Did you know that?

I just know that. They pray the five prayers, but they mix some prayers together. Anyway, I think when we talk about sufism, we rather talk about the sitaution of heart while doing the prayers, rather than the preyers themselves. The later is the concern of scholars of shari'a.​

How do you know? Again you are pretending like you know someone's heart.

Discussed earlier..​

lol, well I guess there is no point in continuing this discussion then How dare I question their "deep" "divine" and "proven" knowledge...

I think we discussed this before. Our points of view differ..​

Your not going to be the one taking the advantage... I assure you.

You cant be that sure. if God wills, I m going to take the advantage...​

Contradiction. Explain it whichever way you wish, it is a logical fallacy.

By saying "God is the cause of everything", I want to say that "everything is of God's will/permission". If the first sentence seems in contradiction with me to "choose", then I retreat to the second one to dispel confusion: [4:70] Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul.​

You can never disobey God, remember?

Therefore, all ways are controlled by Him and you cant walk any other path then the one decreed for you.

God gives us the choice: you can obey or not. The Quran is full of verses about people who turn away. People turn away by His permission. They dont break His will by doing so. You choose, and you have to be responsible of the consequences of your choice.​

Yes, there is a path that is decreed for me. But this path by all its components doesnt include my actions/choices. They arent decreed for me.​

By the way, if there is no free will, then there is no need for both heaven and hell. God then should have showed us mercy from now. What the use of us suffering?!!​

Living this life has a great purpose, and free will is a very crucial part in this purpose: [18:7] That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them are best in conduct.​

Yes

How come!! Love in itself is a state of weakness in front of the beloved.​

Just because someone says he is humble, doesnt make him humble. If he was really humble, he wouldnt go around showing off his "humility".

​

Oh,c0de. God's friend/not humble. Humble/pretending.​

Any way,brother, i think now we are doing rediscussion. You presented your views, and I presented mine. The fact that none of us believe in each other argument doesnt harm the both argument. May Allah show us what is right, and bestow on us following it, and show us what it s wrong, and bestow on us avoiding it..​

Thanx for all, brother

ps: that was just a small comment.It doesnt mean the end of the discussion. If you have anything to comment on about this post, you r very welcome, brother​

 

[Netti-Netti]

To add to your confusion....

The Sufi Order International appears to be non-Islamic.

 

[c0de]

.


@ DITB


By the way, read Netti's post above.
Does it add to your confusion?
Because it doesn't surprise me at all.

Yes, there is a path that is decreed for me. But this path by all its components doesnt include my actions/choices. They arent decreed for me.​

Okay, first of all, you are contradicting yourself.
A path is a set of choices and actions. So if you admit
that your path is decreed, then by definition your actions/choice
are also decreed.

Secondly, and more importantly, since we already know that your choice
of the path is decreed, so the rest of your argument is futile anyway:

[FONT=&quot]Chapter 28; Verse 68[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]And thy Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases. To choose is not theirs.
Glory be to Allah and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him)[/FONT]​

[4:70] Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul.

Your interpretation contradicts many other verses in the Quran, like this one:

Verse 6:17: ​

if Allah visits you with affliction, none can remove it except he; and if
he touches you with good, indeed, he has power over all things.
​

It isnt. It is God's promise: [29:69] And those who strive in Our (cause),- We will certainly guide them to our Paths: For verily Allah is with those who do right.​

The same case again. Your interpretation contradicts other verses such as this:

[FONT=&quot]And whomsoever it is Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto
the Surrender, and whomsoever it is His Will to send astray, He maketh his
bosom close and narrow [/FONT][FONT=&quot]as if he were engaged in sheer ascent. Thus Allah
layeth ignominy upon those who believe not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6:125[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]

This verse clearly defines who is able to strive, and who is unable to strive.
Only those who are already guided by God are allowed to strive in His cause.


[/FONT]

How come!! Love in itself is a state of weakness in front of the beloved.

Absolutely Wrong!

If this were true, then God would never love His creation.
Because God is never in a state of weakness.

You have not understood love at all, neither you, nor your sufis.
​

It never surprises me that the ones who talk the most about
concepts like "love" and "humility" are the ones who have the
least understanding of them. Superficial knowledge is what
brings people to such misunderstandings.

Because I dont have a specialized deep knowledge. My own knowledge is superficial, and still need more input. Tafseer/interpretation is another Islamic science that widens one's reading of the Quran and the sunnah. Sufi masters provide me an interpretation that has to do with "ihsan/excelence" the third pillar of Islam.

Since when is "ihsan" the 3rd pillar of Islam?
The sunnis have 5 pillars and none of them is ihsan.

The knowledge they provide has to do with heart. To make Islam more touching, and more meaningful by fusing life into rituals and practices that will turn to be boring if those practices arent companied with inner devotion.

Now you have finally said it. This is the real reason why people adopt Sufism, isn't it? Because Islam in its real form (Quran and Sunnah) is
too harsh and "boring"... Did you ever think that it is made this way
because only through harshness and boredom can a person be guided?

Today, all you have is bubble-gum religion to make people feel more
comfortable, and to attract them into an institution. This is the case not
just with Islam, but Christianity and Judaism too. They are calling it
"pop religion"... It is no different then other social clubs people join.

I believe in the argument I presented, but if it is not convincing to you, then there is no problem.​

It was not convincing because it was a complete mis-representation of the story.

What about this very clear verse,c0de. I found it while I was reading the Quran this night: "[32:24]And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our command,so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs."​

Give me a break sis... How can you not tell that verse is talking about Prophets? Not your sufi masters.

Are you still objecting that some people can give guidance by the command of God of course?! Thta was my point from the very beginning...​

Read carefully sis. This itself contradicts the sufi beliefs that guidance can be earned by good deeds and dikhr etc.

All!! Really strange?!

Yes its possible. You cant base your entire argument on the assumption that they are all right. If numbers determined who is right, then Christianity deserves to be more right then anyone, as there are more Christians then everyone else

In the Quran, there is mention of three types of souls: The commanding soul, the reproaching soul, and the peacful soul. R not this spiritual ranks?

I never said there are no spiritual ranks. Apparently, you have not even understood my argument.

If u object to attributing this to oneself or master, I ve pointed before that these are just causes, the real guide is God. He guides through/using certain people for that. No blasphemy.

You also said God is the real cause of everything.

By saying "God is the cause of everything", I want to say that "everything is of God's will/permission". If the first sentence seems in contradiction with me to "choose", then I retreat to the second one to dispel confusion:

retreats dont solve the problem. Its still a contradiction.

Discussed earlier..

You never came up with any solution to the problem I posed to you...

By the way, if there is no free will, then there is no need for both heaven and hell. God then should have showed us mercy from now. What the use of us suffering?!!​

I have answered this objection many times before. I even linked to another thread that I created back in January that deals specifically with this objection. The thread is called "The problem of evil (in a deterministic universe)." Look for the link in my replies to Netti.

Any way,brother, i think now we are doing rediscussion.

Because you keep repeating points which have been nullified.
But it is better that we stop, as this isnt getting anywhere anyway.
​

 

[Netti-Netti]

c0de:

.
By the way, read Netti's post above.
Does it add to your confusion?
Because it doesn't surprise me at all.

Me neither, but possibly for different reasons. I suspect it tells us less about Sufism than about political reactionaries.

From the Federal Research Division of the Library of Congress as part of the Country Studies/Area Handbook Series sponsored by the U.S. Department of the Army (1986-1998):

Sufism threatened the status of established religious authorities (ulama)
​

Afghanistan - Sufism

The ideological differences mentioned may have been part of it, too.

By positioning itself as nonIslamic, Sufi Order International in effect signaled that it was not in competition with the ulama for authority.

 

[c0de]

.


Excellent find Netti

Afghanistan - Sufism

These centers oftentimes amassed considerable wealth from gifts from pilgrims and from endowments (awaqf; singular, waqf), an important institution providing community social services. With wealth they acquired social and political power. This building of a sense of an alternative community within Sufism threatened the status of established religious authorities (ulama), undermining their institutionalized perceptions of an universal, unified Islamic community (ummah) following the Shariah, the "straight path" of Islamic law. The orthodox ulama initially declared Sufism heretical, but over time came to tolerate it as long as its adherents abided by Islamic laws.

Interesting...

I suspect it tells us less about Sufism than about political reactionaries.

It is also possible that Sufism was an attempt by the newly conquered Muslim territories for decentralization, with the aim of consolidating power in the hands of local elites/"orders".

We know that Sufism came about after the generation of the Prophet. By this time the Muslim state had turned into a materialistic imperial power. Movements like Sufism were bound to prop-up in the conquered territories as a response to the central ulema authorities that exerted strict ideological control of the lands.

... just a hypothesis, but it seems plausible because such a process is only natural.

 

[Netti-Netti]

.
Afghanistan - Sufism

These centers oftentimes amassed considerable wealth from gifts from pilgrims and from endowments (awaqf; singular, waqf), an important institution providing community social services. With wealth they acquired social and political power.

Excellent find Netti

It seems Sufis were affluent from the start because of wealthy patrons - and not just in Afghanistan.

It is also possible that Sufism was an attempt by the newly conquered Muslim territories for decentralization, with the aim of consolidating power in the hands of local elites/"orders".

It may also be that Sufis never cared about conquest, but those who did felt threatened anyway.

We know that Sufism came about after the generation of the Prophet. By this time the Muslim state had turned into a materialistic imperial power. Movements like Sufism were bound to prop-up in the conquered territories as a response to the central ulema authorities that exerted strict ideological control of the lands.

... just a hypothesis, but it seems plausible because such a process is only natural.

Makes sense to me.

In Iran, it seems the ulema are the precursor to premodern and contemporary Ayatollah type regimes.

According to Akbar Ahmed, the ulema are the most significant because they “represent the orthodox, bureaucratic, formal and legalistic tradition in Islam. They interact with the State even at the highest level and advise the kings, captains and commanders of Islam.” Indeed, unlike both their Sufi and sayyed counterparts the ulema have often become willingly embroiled in the political, social and economic affairs of their respective nation-states.
​

S Y N T H E S I S - The Way of the Fanatic

Some Sufi orders are hierarchical. They have formal initiation for disciples. But it seems to be a kind of symbolic/ritualized/spiritualized "soft authoritarianism." By comparison, the ulema evolved into an actual "warrior caste."

These opposing trends converging in the current era indicate what will probably prove to be fairly critical challenges of Islamic revivalism and self-definition.

You might enjoy this paper....
http://epublications.bond.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=cewces_papers

 

[dailogue is the best]

.@ DITB

By the way, read Netti's post above.

Does it add to your confusion?
Because it doesn't surprise me at all. ​

As I said before, sufism has a very broad meaning. Sufism in its braod meaning focus on every type of morals and ethics.. That's why, I use Sunni/islamic sufism to be more exact.

A path is a set of choices and actions. So if you admit

​

that your path is decreed, then by definition your actions/choice

are also decreed. ​

A path is not only a set of choices and actions. It is accidents you face, people you meet, things you have, things you dont, family ancestors you havent chosen, body you havent chosen... I said that a path by all its components is decreed except my deeds. They are mine, and God wills for/allows me to choose. I am responsible for my choices:

[41:40] Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better?- he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgment? Do what ye will: verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do.​

[41:46] Whoever works righteousness benefits his own soul; whoever works evil, it is against his own soul: nor is thy Lord ever unjust (in the least) to His Servants.​

The verse clearly shows that we are responsible of our actions, and their results.​

anyway:

Chapter 28; Verse 68: And thy Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases. To choose is not theirs.

To choose what? Can you explain?! The Quran explains itself: [33:36] It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Apostle to have any option about their decision:if any one disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.​

That's the true meaning, c0de. If you are wise/believer, you have no other choice but following God's Words (this choice is not obligatory). In the verse you provided, the meaning is: "to choose (properly) is not theirs": they make the false choice as the context of the verses is the talking about the deluded people. ​

Your interpretation contradicts many other verses in the Quran, like this one:Verse 6:17: if Allah visits you with affliction, none can remove it except he; and if he touches you with good, indeed, he has power over all things.

​

My argument have a logic interpretation for those verses talking about God's will of everything.​

Because of God's will, everything, good or bad, is from God: That is the meaning of the verse, c0de. "If Allah visits you with affliction (as He allows others to do so), none can remove it except He." Thus, my interpretation doesnt contradict the above verse.​

To hold that God allows someone to choose/do sth doesn’t mean that this person is predestined to do so. This person is given will, but he isnt given the total power. For example, someone wants to harm me. That someone is given the will to harm, but the harm will not get me only by the degree God wants that.​

Another example, you work hard to get high marks, but you just get very modest ones. ​

What I want to say is that we are given will, but our will exists within God's divine plan. Whatever we do, we are always within God's will. God is in control of everything even if when you choose to disobey.​

What about you,c0de?! There are many verses in the Quran which clearly declare that people are responsible for their actions, and they have to work for their salvation. How would you reconcile this with your argument of predestiantion?!​

By the way, I v found another Quranic verse, reproaching those who blame God for their delusion:
[39:55] And follow the best of (the courses) revealed to you from your Lord, before the Penalty comes on you - of a sudden while ye perceive not!-
[39:56] "Lest the soul should (then) say: 'Ah! Woe is me!- In that I neglected (my duty) towards Allah, and was but among those who mocked!'-
[39: 57] "Or (lest) it should say: 'If only Allah had guided me, I should certainly have been among the righteous!'-
[39: 58] "Or (lest) it should say when it (actually) sees the penalty: 'If only I had another chance, I should certainly be among those who do good!'
[39: 59] "(The reply will be 'Nay, but there came to thee my Signs, and thou didst reject them: thou wast Haughty, and became one of those who reject faith!'"​

And whomsoever it is

Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto the Surrender, and whomsoever it is His Will to send astray, He maketh his bosom close and narrow as if he were engaged in sheer ascent. Thus Allah layeth ignominy upon those who believe not.6:125

This verse clearly defines who is able to strive, and who is unable to strive. Only those who are already guided by God are allowed to strive in His cause.​

And who are those who are already guided by God, c0de? Are they chosen arbitrary?! No, they aren’t.

I already stated, depending on the Quran, that Allah's will to guide has causes. Those who choose to work by these causes are to be guided. Also, His will to sent astray is not arbitrary, but for those who choose to work by the causes of delusion. Look at the end of the verse. Allah doesnt layeth ignominy arbitary, but rather among those who choose not to believe.​

What you should understand is that Allah's will is not against human will. When we say of a human will we don’t exclude Allah's will, and vice versa. Humans are given will, but their will can never ever work out the will of God. "I choose wrong/right" is God's will/permission. Yet, it doesn’t mean predestination, and it doesn’t mean God is not in control of the situation either. Everything is under His control whatever you choose. You cant never ever run away from God. That's why, the wisest persons are those who lovingly submit their will to Him, because He is the One who chooses the best.​

My argument is that : Nothing happens without God’s will, and Human will is very critical, but it exists within the context of Divine will. ​

Absolutely Wrong!

If this were true, then God would never love His creation.

Because God is never in a state of weakness. ​

You misunderstood me again. I m talking about love as a human emotion. Divine love is something else. Love is a situation wherein many emotions are emerged and mixed. Weakness (broken heart) is one of these emotions.

You have not understood love at all, neither you, nor your sufis

.

It never surprises me that the ones who talk the most about concepts like" love" and "humility" are the ones who have the least understanding of them. Superficial knowledge is what brings people to such misunderstandings.

​

You said once that it takes spirituality to recognize spirituality, and you were very true. Now, I am telling you that it takes humilty to recognize humility. You declared in your thread that your opinion is not so humble, so how d u expect to recognize the humility of others?!! The same about love. If you see that Sufis haven’t understood love at all, then let me tell you that you are the one who haven’t understood real love as you are endowed with too much pride which never befriends love.​

Since when is "ihsan" the 3rd pillar of Islam?

​

The sunnis have 5 pillars and none of them is ihsan. ​

Sorry, I should have used the word "dimension" instead of "pillar". Ihsan is one of the three dimensions of the Islamic religion/Deen: islam, iman, ihsan. They are mentioned in the long hadith of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh with the angel Gabriel pbuh.
​

 

[dailogue is the best]

Now you have finally said it. This is the real reason why people adopt Sufism, isn't it? Because Islam in its real form (Quran and Sunnah) is

too harsh and "boring"... Did you ever think that it is made this way
because only through harshness and boredom can a person be guided?

You are mistaken, brother. What really happened is that in the time of the prophet Muhammad pbuh, there was deep attachment to the hereafter, and the remembrance of God as the prophet was living among the people and he was a source of spiritual inspiration for them. Later on, after his death and as the Islamic society started to become more materialistic, people kept focusing just on the outside manifestation of Islam, or what we could call "rituals" like prayers, pilgrimage etc, while their minds and hearts are mainly preoccupied with this world life. Thus, it was the appearance of Sufism, not to come with something new, but rather to go back by Muslims to the real morals and ethics of the prophet pbuh and his companions. Those Sufis have been showing that it is not the actions of rise and falling in prayers that are the most important thing, but rather the situation of your heart. And the same with all others practices. Sufis have been playing the role of clarifying the dimension of "Ihsan" as scholars of shari'a have been focusing on the dimension of "islam".

It would be boring to pray, fast, pay zakat, do pilgrimage without understanding the spirit of those practices. And people will soon leave them if they don’t touch their spirit/meaning. God says: [2: 45] Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-

Yes, brother, prayer is hard as God himself says, except for those who bring a lowly spirit. Lowly spirit needs strive and hard work. Sufis have been devouting their lives for that.

Give me a break sis... How can you not tell that verse is talking about Prophets? Not your sufi masters.

It seems that the verse is about non prophets. The English translation used the term "leaders" for the Arabic word "a'ima", the plural of "Imam".

Moreover, here is another story about a man who asked his people to follow him as he would guide them to the right path, and God rewarded him for what he did:
[40:38] The man who believed said further: "O my people! Follow me: I will lead you to the Path of Right.
[40:39] "O my people! This life of the present is nothing but (temporary) convenience: It is the Hereafter that is the Home that will last.
[40:40] He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.
[40:41] "And O my people! How (strange) it is for me to call you to Salvation while ye call me to the Fire!
[40:42] Ye do call upon me to blaspheme against Allah, and to join with Him partners of whom I have no knowledge; and I call you to the Exalted in Power, Who forgives again and again!"
[40:43] "Without doubt ye do call me to one who is not fit to be called to, whether in this world, or in the Hereafter; our return will be to Allah; and the Transgressors will be Companions of the Fire!
[40:44] "Soon will ye remember what I say to you (now), My (own) affair I commit to Allah: for Allah (ever) watches over His Servants."
[40:45] Then Allah saved him from (every) ill that they plotted (against him), but the burnt of the Penalty encompassed on all sides the People of Pharaoh.

After these verses, r u still holding to the opinion that a person cant guide to God's path?!!

Read carefully sis. This itself contradicts the sufi beliefs that guidance can be earned by good deeds and dikhr etc.

Well, brother. "By the command of God" simply means by His laws, and it is within His laws/will that guidance will be bestowed on those who strive for God's cause by good deeds and dikhr etc.

You also said God is the real cause of everything…

retreats dont solve the problem. Its still a contradiction.

Hope now it s clearer from the explanations above. There are no contradiction, just try to understand it..

I have answered this objection many times before.

I even linked to another thread that I created back in January that deals specifically with this objection. The thread is called "The problem of evil (in a deterministic universe)." Look for the link in my replies to Netti.

​

Yes, I ve already read it, c0de. But, ur argument is not convincing for it neglects some important Quranic verses like that God created us to test us/to

worship Him/to test who is best in deeds.
​

 

[c0de]

.

Netti + DITB​

@ NETTI

Thanks for the article netti. Its always interesting to observe such amusing behavior. I have a few bones to pick with it of course. First of all, it is typified by the same ironic trend that is present in most western political papers of its nature: that while it tries its utmost to present a liberal-individualistic viewpoint, it uses (in spirit) the exact same approach of Marxist dialectics. This general trend is understood better if one sees western individualism and Marxist socialism as two arms of the same historical materialism that it is.

It therefore is no surprise that in the article, Sufism is seen as the only real opponent to the Taliban and Wahabism. Two dialectical opposing forces (good vs evil, light vs dark) battling it out, a theme present throughout the article (and most of philosophy and history): a liberal humanistic/individualistic ideal vs the oppressive, authoritarian system (even brings in the USSR in his analysis).

But it has some interesting revelations to offer nonetheless. For example, right after comparing the word "sufi" with the greek word "sophists" the researcher goes on to say:

Sufism in part grew out of the scholastic and metaphysical researches of great scholars such as Razi (885-925), Ibn Sina (Avicenna, 980-1037), and Ibn Rushd (Averroes, died 1198), but soon developed its poetic stamp, practical philosophies, and forms of social critique. These developed in part out of earlier trends found in Greek and Christian gnosticism, but was also influenced the complex social milieu of Central Asia, where Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Chinese influences (67)
mixed with Persian and Islamic ones.

and this...

Sufism, which did not rely on the strict letter of the law, also 'respected native traditions and customs and assured the people that Islam's liberalism could encompass their individualism'. (70) This was
particularly so in the Kirghiz tribes, who found in Sufism a type of psychological and collective selfdefense of their identity during periods of disorientation in the late 19th and early 20th century.

seems to strengthen my earlier hypothesis.

The conclusion of the article is especially funny:

We can see that Islam provides a multi-layered religious, cultural and political complex with its own formulation of human rights and norms of international conduct. Certain elements within Islam, especially Sufism, provide a basis for a humanitarian, individualistic

How interesting that the article singles out Sufism as Islam's "own formulation of human rights", after all the influence of the Greeks and foreign ideologies and philosophies has already been established. What is even more crucial is why the researchers only recognize Sufism, which is the most individualistic of Islamic philosophies, as Islam's "own". This is the problem I have with orientalism. Suddenly, the only good that is present in the East (or was ever present) is what fits into the West's ideas of all that is great.

The greatest argument I can present against this line of thinking is from one of Islam's greatest critics, William Muir, who declared/admitted that the best and only true "republic" that ever existed on the face of the earth was the Islamic state under the Prophet himself, in Medinah (before sufism, and western liberalism, which have never produced anything close to such a utopia on earth).




@ DITB

To choose what? Can you explain?!

Sister, how can you expect me to take your post seriously when you continue to make such (comical) errors such as this? I gave you a verse, clear and simple, and you ask such a question?

​

"And thy Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases. To choose is not theirs"
​

​

To this you ask the question: "to choose what? can you explain" ??? (lol) Seriously???


---------------------------------------------------------------


Listen sis, our entire discussion has revolved around only two basic points. So first of all, there is no need for you to post such expansive and disjointed responses (spanning multiple posts!!) And second of all, you continue to ignore the basic argument against your point, and these objections have already rendered your entire case useless.

Please don't expect me to simply ignore these objections and chase you while you go running in circles:

#1: You have failed to show how you can verify the spiritual rank of
your Sufi masters. (Netti at least, has already admitted this)

#2: You keep trying to escape the fact that if God is the cause of
everything, then you have no other causes left for anything.


Not only this, but you have shown that you have not even understood the argument which you are trying so hard to defeat. For example:

Yes, I ve already read it, c0de. But, ur argument is not convincing for it neglects some important Quranic verses like that God created us to test us/to

worship Him/to test who is best in deeds.​

That is not why I referred you to that thread. You asked me what the use of suffering/hell is in such a system where there is no free will, and that thread answers this objection. The fact that you even asked that question proves that you did not understand my actual argument, and this response confirms this.

In fact I can even refer you to the words of Rumi, your own hero, (which I think are listed in that thread) for justification of the process of suffering/hell, if I wanted. As for your counter objection that my argument "ignores many verses of the Quran", I could say the same thing about your argument and make a much better case then you have been trying to make.

Lastly, you try this approach:

You said once that it takes spirituality to recognize spirituality, and you were very true. Now, I am telling you that it takes humilty to recognize humility. You declared in your thread that your opinion is not so humble, so how d u expect to recognize the humility of others?!! The same about love. If you see that Sufis haven’t understood love at all, then let me tell you that you are the one who haven’t understood real love as you are endowed with too much pride which never befriends love.

Be careful with the sword you are wielding sister, for is has a very sharp double edge and can be used against you. I can very easily say that since I am proud, I recognize pride in others. Since I know what false humility is, I can recognize it in others.

At the same time, I can also make the argument that in order to prove that you can recognize humility in your sufi masters, you first have to prove that you are humble. Because how can you say you recognize something that you don't even understand? But this is a no-win situation for you, because as soon as you declare that you are humble (like your sufi masters) you have already proven that you are not.

And lastly, I would like to ask you to understand the fact that since my argument aims to DESTROY the concept of "free will" it also destroys the concept of individualism. Therefore, things like "pride" have no place in my system, while the sufi system is basically built around it.


​

 

[c0de]

.


p.s.


@ Netti

By the way, please dont hesitate to post links to more articles. just cuz I find them "amusing" doesnt mean I dont appreciate them, in my own (twisted) way .

 

[Netti-Netti]

.
It therefore is no surprise that in the article, Sufism is seen as the only real opponent to the Taliban and Wahabism.

I think it is an obvious comparison/contrast to make, but it does not rule out others.

How interesting that the article singles out Sufism as Islam's "own formulation of human rights", after all the influence of the Greeks and foreign ideologies and philosophies has already been established.

This may seem contradictory to you, but it isn't. I would say that your reference to the statement might qualify as a misquote. I'll explain.

What is even more crucial is why the researchers only recognize Sufism, which is the most individualistic of Islamic philosophies, as Islam's "own". This is the problem I have with orientalism. Suddenly, the only good that is present in the East (or was ever present) is what fits into the West's ideas of all that is great.

This line of argument seems to reflect a misunderstanding of what the author actually wrote. The phrase "own formulation of human rights" appears in the first sentence of the conclusion, which reads:
​

"We can see that Islam provides a multi-layered religious, cultural and political complex with its own formulation of human rights and norms of international conduct. "
​

The author is talking about Islam in general, not Sufism in particular. The human rights aspect was apparent from the start, especially where the Koran touches on subjects like protecting noncombatants and women.

The authors goes on to suggest that Sufism may be more flexible, as attested by indications that it has been influenced by the Greeks and foreign ideologies and philosophies. So I don't see the contradiction you see at all.