Moses's Escape from Egypt

[Avi]

Hadi, thank you for your post and welcome to the forum !!

Those are interesting words from the Quran. Would you be willing to share some of your thoughts about their meaning, within the context of this thread ?

Thanks.

 

[Avi]

To Freud, there are two Judaisms:

1. The religion of Moses. This religion is derived from the highly sophisticated Egyptian religion in its most advanced form: the One God of Akhenaten.

The traditional view is that Judaism derived from Mesopotamia. But I am aware that other views have been proposed.

This religion is ethical, all sorcery and "magic" is removed from the ritual priestly practice. God is universal, not local. Law is established, not as an implement of political power, but as a covenant between God and God's faithful people.

This part sounds pretty good to me.

This is the Law of the Levites, as expounded in Leviticus, a faith which was revived during the Babylonian exile.

Perhaps revived, perhaps never lost. I believe there have been Levites as long as there were Priests, which I think has been since the time of Moses.

The Egyptian practice of circumcision (there are ancient Egyptian pictures of this practice of circumcision) is adopted by the Jews - as a covenant between father and son

I was not aware this was an Egyptian practice.

("I will ritually castrate you so that I will not factually castrate you") - as a kind of childhood baptism in the Law. Initiation into the Faith.

Ouch !!! Now hang on here Penelope. I never learned that circumcision was "ritual castration". That is pretty brutal stuff. I learned that castration is for medical reasons, it used to be common for infections to occur otherwise.

2. The Israelite tribal religion. This is the religion of Jahve (Yahweh), a peevish, fickle, bloodthirsty moon god (or volcano god) which the Jews adopted from a Canaanite tribe.

Again, new to me, but could have some truth. One of the differentiating factors of Judaism was rejection of the polytheistic "moon gods".

This god was the enforcer of a lot of petty and arbitrary - tribally-based - rules and rituals. Rules that were local, not universal, not ethical in nature.

Toward the end of their long stay in northern Egypt, the Israelites had adopted the new religion of their overlord, Moses, worshipping Aten.

I think you (or Freud) is neglecting a lot of the evolution and progress of Avraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

But once out in the desert, and afraid, they murder Moses, and drop Aten. They revert to a worship of the desert god, Jahve.

If they had indeed gone this route they might have been destined to polytheism.

But during the Babylonian exile, the suppressed communal guilt of the Jews revives Moses in their consciousness ("return of the repressed") and the scribes start to rewrite the past.

My recollection on this is it was during the time of Josiah that Torah was believed to have been re-discovered.

Only here, from Babylon on, does the ethical rabbinic religion of Moses, again become central to the practice of Judaism.

Could be the case.

... Freud's theory of Judaism, short version.
(Lacking all of Freud's convoluted psychoanalytic speculation upon the subconscious mechanisms/reasons for all this, lacking Freud's theories about the totems and taboos of tribal societies, etc.)

Take it or leave it, but this is a pretty substantial theory (even if Freud is working at the fringes of his expertise).
And even if anthropologists can disprove his speculations upon the psychology of primitive and archaic peoples, Freud's theory might be valid, nonetheless, in its outline ...
Even if the social engine which produced Judaism - Freud's version - needs some serious tinkering (which it probably does) in order to be anthropologically credible.

Some of Freud's thoughts cannot be rejected out of hand. I am not sure I would go as far as to say it is a "pretty substantial theory". It is based entirely on conjecture and imagination. I am not aware of any archeological or anthropological evidence to support any of it. But Freud was a smart guy, indeed.

 

[hadi]

Hadi, thank you for your post and welcome to the forum !!

Those are interesting words from the Quran. Would you be willing to share some of your thoughts about their meaning, within the context of this thread ?

Thanks.

Thanks Avi,

maybe your Egyptian friends didn't read this part of the Quran .....

as for the verses, I don't really have much to say ,,, but I would like to comment on verses 61-62. It shows the great faith that Moses had at the time of tribulation. when his people were filled with fear and said " We are sure to be overtaken." , he responded "Nay, verily! With me is my Lord, He will guide me" ...

 

[dailogue is the best]

Hi DITB, either the Islamic or Egyptian perspective would be of interest. And how are they different ?

Thanks.

I dont know how they are different because I dont know the Egyptian perspective. I thought you meant by that the Egptian textbooks or whatever. Any way, as far as the Islamic perspective is concerned, there is a detailed telling about the story of Moses pbuh mission with the people of Isreal. You may direct a reaseach in google about that, and if you find anything confusing, we can help..

Concerning the Quranic verses Hadi quoted, It remainds me of a discussion we had in the Christian Forum. We had discussion about the departing of the sea by the stick of Moses pbuh. The Quran talks about the keeping of the body of Pharoah as a proof of that.There was a discovery of that body by Dr. Maurice Bucaille. Here is the link to the discussion:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/what-is-the-christian-perspective-8608-12.html

and here is a link to the Pharoah's body:
YouTube - Reservation of Pharaoh's Body Dr Maurice Bucaille And Yusuf Estes

 

[Avi]

The Egyptian practice of circumcision (there are ancient Egyptian pictures of this practice of circumcision) is adopted by the Jews - as a covenant between father and son ("I will ritually castrate you so that I will not factually castrate you") - as a kind of childhood baptism in the Law. Initiation into the Faith.

I did find some evidence that circumcision was practiced in Egypt:

Circumcision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is interesting to me, indeed. But I wonder how widespread this practice was in Egypt ?

But no indication of a connection to ritual castration.

 

[Avi]

Thanks Avi,

maybe your Egyptian friends didn't read this part of the Quran .....

as for the verses, I don't really have much to say ,,, but I would like to comment on verses 61-62. It shows the great faith that Moses had at the time of tribulation. when his people were filled with fear and said " We are sure to be overtaken." , he responded "Nay, verily! With me is my Lord, He will guide me" ...

Thank you Hadi, you are probably right, most of my Egyptian friends are secular Muslims so they have probably either not read this portion of Quran or forgotten it.

The portion that you refer to about Moses's great faith is also a major theme of Torah. There are several examples where Moses faith in G-d allowed him to continue his work under difficult conditions.

So do you feel it would be fair to say that most Muslims, educated in Quran, would agree that Moses Exodus really happened ?

 

[Avi]

I dont know how they are different because I dont know the Egyptian perspective. I thought you meant by that the Egptian textbooks or whatever.

DITB, thanks for your reponse, I was not asking about textbooks, but it is an interesting question as well. As Wil indicated earlier, because of our secular education in the US, we do not learn about biblical events in our public schools. Rather than ask you about Egypt, I will ask you about Morocco, did you study in religious or secular schools ? And did you learn about Moses Exodus in your school ? Do you believe the Exodus really occured ?

Any way, as far as the Islamic perspective is concerned, there is a detailed telling about the story of Moses pbuh mission with the people of Isreal. You may direct a reaseach in google about that, and if you find anything confusing, we can help..

Ok, fair enough. The Quran passage that Hadi provided was quite enlightening.

So it makes me wonder about the other patriarchs and prophets. In your education, either in studying Quran or in school did you learn about the other Jewish patriarchs: Isaac, Jacob, Joseph ? And did you learn about the Jewish Prophets; Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel ? Do you believe they really existed ?

Concerning the Quranic verses Hadi quoted, It remainds me of a discussion we had in the Christian Forum. We had discussion about the departing of the sea by the stick of Moses pbuh. The Quran talks about the keeping of the body of Pharoah as a proof of that.There was a discovery of that body by Dr. Maurice Bucaille. Here is the link to the discussion:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/what-is-the-christian-perspective-8608-12.html

I have gone back and read this thread, and it has a lot of interesting information.

and here is a link to the Pharoah's body:
YouTube - Reservation of Pharaoh's Body Dr Maurice Bucaille And Yusuf Estes

The idea of mummifying a Pharoah is very interesting. It provides physical evidence of his existance. But in your opinion does it provide any other historical information about that time period ?

 

[Postmaster]

Postermaster's comment in the Judaism forum about Jesus made me think about posting here about Moses and Egypt.

As I said in the other thread, I have asked several of my Egyptian friends about Moses and his escape from Egypt. Apparently this topic is absent in Egyptian students education.

So, I am wondering, why do you suppose this is the case ? Is there insufficient archeological and anthropological evidence to support this (ut oh, Poo may not be available to answer this !!). Did this event not happen, and it is just myth ? Or could the Egyptian psyche want to suppress this episode ? Or are there other reasons ? I do not know the answer to this question.

I look forward to hearing your ideas.

One thing I learnt from my many hours of watching the history channel is that anti-semitism can be traced all the back way to Ancient Egypt, they considered Jews as the evil ones in some writings.

 

[iBrian]

Brian, this book looks very interesting. It seems that by shifting the biblical dating back 200 years, much of the archeological evidence fits. Here is an excerpt from an Amazon review:

Some of the hypotheses are quite contentious, some are well made. The result is an interesting and very thought-provoking book.

 

[bananabrain]

freud's view of judaism was a straw man. there is very little to show he actually knew anything about it, just as there is very little to show that his theories can be substantiated by evidence. i know there's a psychoanalysis industry, but as a field of actual hard science it is only really starting out and not terribly well at that.

but don't let the actual reality of judaism get in your way if you have a big point to make.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[c0de]

.

And this week's LOLz trophy goes to...

but don't let the actual reality of judaism get in your way if you have a big point to make.

klassic : )

 

[dailogue is the best]

DITB, I will ask you about Morocco, did you study in religious or secular schools ? And did you learn about Moses Exodus in your school ? Do you believe the Exodus really occured ?

Islamic education is a subject that is taught from primary school till secondary school. They have tried to delete it, but there was a kind of protest against them. Now they are doing it a little bit by "wisdom": from couple of years to others, they are reducing the hours of Islamic education per a week.

Our Holy Book, the Holy Quran, teaches us that Moses peace be upon him is a prophet and if we dont believe in him or in any other prophets, then we are no longer Muslims. Our Quran tells us that Pharoah killed all the children as he was told that there would come a young man who would destroy his throne. Moses's mother threw him into the river till he reached Pharoah's house. Pharouh's wife asked him to let her raise the baby. The baby refused to breestfeed from anywoman, and God fulfilled His promise to Moses' mother that he would bring her back to her baby. the baby accepted only to be breestfeed by his mother, and no one knew of that except his sister who was tracing the cradle. The story of Moses pbuh is told in detailed way in the Quran...

If you meant by the exodus the departing of the sea, then yes we confirmly believe in that. God confirms in the Quran that He would save the body of Moses's Pharoah as a proof of that accident, and this body was really found. Ans here is the picture:

Pharoah Merneptah, Moses's Pharoah, The king of egypt during Moses period.

So it makes me wonder about the other patriarchs and prophets. In your education, either in studying Quran or in school did you learn about the other Jewish patriarchs: Isaac, Jacob, Joseph ? And did you learn about the Jewish Prophets; Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel ? Do you believe they really existed ?

Yes, Avi, except Isaiah, we believe that the above mentioned are all prophets peace be upon them all, and as I told you before a Muslim's faith doesnt stand if he/she doesnt believe in them. We believe they really existed.The following are the prophets named in the Quran:

• Adam
• Idris (Enoch)
• Nuh (Noah)
• Hud
• Saleh
• Ibrahim (Abraham)
• Isma'il (Ishmael)
• Ishaq (Isaac)
• Lut (Lot)
• Ya'qub (Jacob)
• Yousef (Joseph)
• Shu'aib
• Ayyub (Job)
• Musa (Moses)
• Harun (Aaron)
• Dhu'l-kifl (Ezekiel)
• Dawud (David)
• Sulaiman (Solomon)
• Ilias (Elias)
• Al-Yasa (Elisha)
• Yunus (Jonah)
• Zakariyya (Zechariah)
• Yahya (John)
• 'Isa (Jesus)
• Muhammad

Now, I am sure you will be astonished at what I am going to say: we believe that all those prophets since Abraham to Muhammed peace be upon them all are neither Jewish nor Christians. They are Muslims. Now I am sure that you are going to acuuse me of craziness and silliness. But let me show you the point of view of my religion. we believe that all those prophets and Jesus peace be upon them all were sent by the same God, hence it was natural and logic for them to be sent with the same message. God doesnt change his plans. When we say that those prophets pbuh were Muslims, I mean submitters to the only one God. This is the meaning of a Muslim in Arabic.

God says:2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters (Muslims)."

The idea of mummifying a Pharoah is very interesting. It provides physical evidence of his existance. But in your opinion does it provide any other historical information about that time period ?

The above mummifying body is believed to be Moses's pharoah when the exodus took place. How this body was discovered, who discovered him, when and where all these questions were a part of our discussion in the following thread:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/what-is-the-christian-perspective-8608-12.html

 

[Avi]

Now, I am sure you will be astonished at what I am going to say: we believe that all those prophets since Abraham to Muhammed peace be upon them all are neither Jewish nor Christians. They are Muslims.

Now I am sure that you are going to acuuse me of craziness and silliness. But let me show you the point of view of my religion. we believe that all those prophets and Jesus peace be upon them all were sent by the same God, hence it was natural and logic for them to be sent with the same message. God doesnt change his plans. When we say that those prophets pbuh were Muslims, I mean submitters to the only one God. This is the meaning of a Muslim in Arabic.


God says:2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters (Muslims)."

Hi DITB, thanks for your thoughtful response and careful answers to my questions.

I am not going to "accuse you of craziness and silliness". In fact I think you are very serious.

You are also right, I did not know that you consider all those prophets neither Jewish or Christian. That is rather remarkable, indeed. I think that point is worthy of some further deliberation.......

 

[Muslimwoman]

Thank you Hadi, you are probably right, most of my Egyptian friends are secular Muslims so they have probably either not read this portion of Quran or forgotten it.

I would find that very hard to believe Avi knowing how the children in Egypt are taught Quran, not reading a part would be tantamount to chopping a limb off. You can't even get in a taxi without hearing Quran being recited.

If they have heard it but forgotten it then look for early signs of dementure

Islamic education is a subject that is taught from primary school till secondary school. They have tried to delete it, but there was a kind of protest against them. Now they are doing it a little bit by "wisdom": from couple of years to others, they are reducing the hours of Islamic education per a week.

Salam aleykum Dailogue

I would say it is much worse than that these days. The Egyptian government doesn't allow women in niqab (face veil) to enter schools.

Some Islamic schools still exist in our area but the general education system has all but removed Quranic teaching and it is now strongly "encouraged" that religious teaching should be done at home. My nephews and nieces (by marriage) all have to learn Quran from private tutors in the evenings and weekends ... sorry state of affairs in a country which is almost 95% Muslim.

 

[Avi]

I would find that very hard to believe Avi knowing how the children in Egypt are taught Quran, not reading a part would be tantamount to chopping a limb off. You can't even get in a taxi without hearing Quran being recited.

If they have heard it but forgotten it then look for early signs of dementure

Hi Muslimwoman, by all means, please tell us what you learned and what your beliefs are about the Exodus (of course, I don't know where you were born and raised, so if it was not Egypt, please tell us what the Egyptian children are learning about the Exodus) ?

 

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Muslimwoman, by all means, please tell us what you learned and what your beliefs are about the Exodus (of course, I don't know where you were born and raised, so if it was not Egypt, please tell us what the Egyptian children are learning about the Exodus) ?

Hi Avi

I'm British by birth, so can only tell you what I know of the childrens education currently.

My husband is Egyptian and he was amazed when he was teaching me the story of Moses (pbuh) and I said I already knew it from the Bible.

What I don't know is whether he was taught it only through religion or through history lessons too .. will be interesting to find out. I've just sent him an email (as I'm back in UK at the moment) asking about it.

While we wait for his answer I will say that most Egyptians I've spoken to have very little historic knowledge prior to Islam, it's pretty much seen as unimportant .. surprising when you consider how rich their history is.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Avi

This is my husband's reply.

when I studied history in egypt they try to keep you away from religion so they teach us all about Pharaohs, Greece and the Greeks and different civilizations and an overview of the Islamic civilization.

I never saw even one time only in all my study life a "government book " that talked about the prophet mohamed story or his life or anything from religion .. but they sometimes put a Sura or part of Quraan or hadith which talks about honesty or sincerity to fulfill or other ethical things

.. and there is a government shcool can teach you everything about religion it's EL-AZHAR