Putting God on Trial: The Biblical Book of Job

[Abogado del Diablo]

The prayers are not to plea to God as judge. God already knows all that we need and gives us what we need. Prayer is not for us to change God's mind and somehow get Him to perform for us, but for us to see that all that we have is already His Providence. The prayers are for us.

I agree. How would you reconcile that idea with the parable, though? Do you think the point of the parable is to encourage repeated prayers for the good it brings us simply from praying, or to repeatedly entreat God in anticipation that by us repeatedly asking, God will eventually be moved to act?

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

So in this case there is possibility for a just judgement, an unjust judgement, or no judgement at all. It seems like you are combining an unjust judgement with none at all... or an unjust judge with a person who doesn't judge unless asked.

Not necessarily. It seems like the parable combines the two though. The unjust judge is recongnized as "unjust" because he only acts after being asked repeatedly to intervene with his judgment.

To me, unjust means an unfairness, imbalance, bias, or partiality... and an unjust judge is a person who might create new injustices.

I think that's how I would view it too. But the parable includes an additional category of "unjust judge," that might properly belong as well . . . one with a civic or moral obligation to judge, but chooses not to unless it suits his convenience. Thus, the person who doesn't judge unless harrassed by repeated requests might join our list of "unjust" judges.

If you think about it, when we ask someone a question we are essentially asking for judgement. Maybe not to divide from an adversary, but for the judgement of our thoughts or for a situation.

I agree with this. I think understanding this idea is the key to communicating across religions and cultures.

Like the other parable of knocking at the door... if we don't ask in prayer we might not get the answer.

You mean "ask . . . seek . . . knock . . ."? I think I see what you are saying, and I agree with that. One must genuinely ask, seek and knock to discover the answer. How does this relate to the traditional notion of prayer as a request for divine intervention? While I don't intend to paint anyone with a broad brush, it is certainly a popular understanding that prayer is a means by which we request God's divine intervention. Like I asked Luna, is there a meaning behind the meaning of Luke 18? Is this parable about what prayer does for us in our asking, seeking and knocking? Or is the parable about expecting to be able to reach beyond ourselves by our repeated requests to move God into action?

I simply note it in the last line of the parable, and I see that two people who don't get along and persist to demand justice from each other may not have much of a relationship left. Most people cry for justice from their adversary, yet mercy for themselves. Rather than learn from each other and agree to disagree they may wish to be divided and isolated... where there is no faith left between them. Hence the need for the important aspects of forgiveness and mercy.

That was beautifully put. Thanks.

Sadly, the definition of the words judge and condemn are alternating too, and muddying it up between versions. But there is no parable of the unjust condemner and in an example like John 8:1-11 the word condemn is used for 'stoning' instead of judge.

More than you asked for and all my opinion of course, guided or misguided.

No, this is what I was hoping for when I asked. You raise some very interesting ideas that I want to think some more about - particularly the contrast between a call to rebuke and a call not to judge. Thanks for your response.

 

[lunamoth]

I agree. How would you reconcile that idea with the parable, though? Do you think the point of the parable is to encourage repeated prayers for the good it brings us simply from praying, or to repeatedly entreat God in anticipation that by us repeatedly asking, God will eventually be moved to act?

I think this parable is about faith. I don't think that prayers are more 'effective' for repetition. A simple inarticulate groan is 'heard' just as much as repeating a prayer over and over. I think the point of repeated prayer is to stay 'in the Spirit' and so in a state of receptiveness to what unfolds. Prayer imbues us with the gifts of the Spirit and we are transformed. But to answer your question, I don't know. Perhaps the parable was to encourage the 'practice' of prayer the way a parent teaches a child something that they should do, or not do, even if they can't fully understand the reason for it. I do not think that 'God changes His mind,' even though there are stories in the Bible where this seems to be the case (the sparing of Isaac on the mountain and Abraham's intercession for the people of Sodom come to mind) all prayers have been heard and answered before the world was born, it is our perspective that changes through prayer. It is about our faith, which the parable of the unjust judge and the one I picked out about the lilies both to me seem to address. Here's another that comes to mind:

24Jesus left that place and went to the vicinity of Tyre.[g] He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret. 25In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an evil[h] spirit came and fell at his feet. 26The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.

27"First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

28"Yes, Lord," she replied, "but even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs."

29Then he told her, "For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter."

30She went home and found her child lying on the bed, and the demon gone.

Once again Jesus seems to be harsh, if not unjust, and then with pleading he changes his mind. I think it points to the way the Gospel spread to the gentiles after first being presented to the Jews, but it is also about steadfast faith. Interesting though to think who exactly was transformed by faith in this one.

just ramblings,
luna

 

[Jeannot]

I think this parable is about faith. I don't think that prayers are more 'effective' for repetition. A simple inarticulate groan is 'heard' just as much as repeating a prayer over and over. I think the point of repeated prayer is to stay 'in the Spirit' and so in a state of receptiveness to what unfolds. Prayer imbues us with the gifts of the Spirit and we are transformed. But to answer your question, I don't know. Perhaps the parable was to encourage the 'practice' of prayer the way a parent teaches a child something that they should do, or not do, even if they can't fully understand the reason for it. I do not think that 'God changes His mind,' even though there are stories in the Bible where this seems to be the case (the sparing of Isaac on the mountain and Abraham's intercession for the people of Sodom come to mind) all prayers have been heard and answered before the world was born, it is our perspective that changes through prayer. It is about our faith, which the parable of the unjust judge and the one I picked out about the lilies both to me seem to address. Here's another that comes to mind:



Once again Jesus seems to be harsh, if not unjust, and then with pleading he changes his mind. I think it points to the way the Gospel spread to the gentiles after first being presented to the Jews, but it is also about steadfast faith. Interesting though to think who exactly was transformed by faith in this one.

just ramblings,
luna

Maybe one aspect of the parable is that God sometimes SEEMS like an unjust judge. And, whether He is or not, we should never stop pestering Him. (Was it Paul who said "Pray always"?)

With regard to the Gentile (Greek-speaking) woman, one interesting thing is that Jesus and the apostles seem to have gone on vacation to the seashore. Anyway, Jesus was incognito. Maybe (I'm obviously specualting here) Jesus was upset to be once again beseeched for a cure--something he had thought to get away from for a bit.

Also, we note as elsewhere, the typical Jewish prejudice against Gentiles. They called them "dogs" because they ate everything. Jesus changes his mind because of the woman's witty response, but above all, because of her desperation, born of love for her daughter.

 

[Quahom1]

Why did he make you ask again and again though?

First time, to make sure that was really what I wanted (and needed). Second time confirmed my commitment to (hence the need for), and it was granted.

Well done Abogado.

 

[17th Angel]

In the ancient biblical Book of Job, I think Job puts God on trial as the author of some undeserved evil in the world and refuses to acquit him.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are god is made to look like a sucker by Satan... It says god KNOWS what is in mans heart... He states and KNOWS Job was the most loyal and dedicated sheep at that time... Satan obviously knows this too... But Satan apparently cannot lay a hand on him with out feeling gods "wrath" so he simply says "Job's your best sheepy is he? Proove it." And god is easily led on and says "Sure go for it guy!!!" Satan then must be chuckling his butt off because he know has an invitation to do whatever he wants to this sheep of god.

 

[Prober]

My thoughts are god is made to look like a sucker by Satan... It says god KNOWS what is in mans heart... He states and KNOWS Job was the most loyal and dedicated sheep at that time... Satan obviously knows this too... But Satan apparently cannot lay a hand on him with out feeling gods "wrath" so he simply says "Job's your best sheepy is he? Proove it." And god is easily led on and says "Sure go for it guy!!!" Satan then must be chuckling his butt off because he know has an invitation to do whatever he wants to this sheep of god.

To the contrary, I think God is making fun of Satan.

God and his "buds" are hanging out and Satan walks by.

God says "uh, hey Satan, did ya hear the one about my servant Job (huh, huh...huh)"?

And Satan says "uh, yeah, but...".

Then Satan comes back by and God says "uh, hey Satan...".

 

[Quahom1]

My thoughts are god is made to look like a sucker by Satan... It says god KNOWS what is in mans heart... He states and KNOWS Job was the most loyal and dedicated sheep at that time... Satan obviously knows this too... But Satan apparently cannot lay a hand on him with out feeling gods "wrath" so he simply says "Job's your best sheepy is he? Proove it." And god is easily led on and says "Sure go for it guy!!!" Satan then must be chuckling his butt off because he know has an invitation to do whatever he wants to this sheep of god.

lol, I think you missed the point. Satan had to ask permission, over and over again. And, Satan thought he was stronger than man. (smarter, but not stronger). Job, not relying on his own understanding put his faith in God's hands. That was the test that Satan failed. Not the test that Job passed.

The deceiver, deceived himself into thinking he could break a man of God, with God's permission, thus show that God was flawed by having anything to do with man.

See, Satan forgot to ask God not to hear the petitions of man during the trouble. So while the body and mind of Job was wracked with pain, the spirit of Job was protected by God.

I opine that Job, had he continued to be tormented by Satan, would have eventually shed all vestiges of his physical self. He may well have become pure spirit, a spirit tempered by the fires he'd been put through...an unfettered force to be reckonned with. And I think both Satan and God knew this (Satan at the latter part of the ordeal).

How ironic that just when Satan was about to break Job, it all stopped...ever wonder why?

v/r

Joshua