Pantheism and Panentheism

[seattlegal]

Well ok, if you can't name it or describe it, how do you study it?

Be in it.

First of all, intelligent design theory does not settle the question of deity being responsible for the natural order of things -- you know, the question I keep asking and don't get an answer on.

Gee, you noticed and acknowledged the similarity!

Secondly, I'm not sure how you would reconcile basic Taoist concepts to intelligent design theory as a scientific paradigm.

You are the one that called Taoism "a barren scientific world view."

It is theory that includes arguments or propositions that are "empirically testable or even falsifiable," and involve testable predictions.

Regarding the increase of knowledge through falsifiability and measurability

Tao Te Ching 2
All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful, and in doing
this they have (the idea of) what ugliness is; they all know the skill
of the skilful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what the
want of skill is.

So it is that existence and non-existence give birth the one to
(the idea of) the other; that difficulty and ease produce the one (the
idea of) the other; that length and shortness fashion out the one the
figure of the other; that (the ideas of) height and lowness arise from
the contrast of the one with the other; that the musical notes and
tones become harmonious through the relation of one with another; and
that being before and behind give the idea of one following another.

Therefore the sage manages affairs without doing anything, and
conveys his instructions without the use of speech.

All things spring up, and there is not one which declines to show
itself; they grow, and there is no claim made for their ownership;
they go through their processes, and there is no expectation (of a
reward for the results). The work is accomplished, and there is no
resting in it (as an achievement).

The work is done, but how no one can see;
'Tis this that makes the power not cease to be.
​

Regarding the way of investigation, compare green parts highlighted above and below:

Virtually any discovery in astrobiology is likely to bear on our (intelligent design testability) argument one way or the other. ...We have given only two examples here. There are many other design arguments in biology, origin-of-life studies, and paleontology that are also empirically testable and that make predictions. Honest commentators should stop claiming that ID is empirically untestable, or that it makes no predictions. The claim itself has been tested and falsified.
​

Evolution News & Views: Intelligent Design is Empirically Testable and Makes Predictions

You say Taoism is "all about the way of intelligent design." Does that mean you have ideas on what aspects of Taoism would lend themselves to empirical investigation?

See green part highlighted above.

Like which of these qualities of the Tao would you say lend themselves to testable hypotheses: "mysterious" or "unnameable" or "blurred and indistinct"? How would you measure these things? And how do we establish that the Tao indeed antedated heaven and earth, as has been claimed?

See part highlighted in green bold above.

Lemme know when you'd like to take a break. I know digging a deep hole is hard work.

I'm doing fine, thank you.

A refreshment perhaps?.....

Yum! Thank you! (It doesn't have the suchness of wild strawberries, but it's still good.)

 

[Avi]

Yes, Taoism is all about the way of intelligent design.

 

[Thomas]

Re: An Interfaith view

Hi Netti-Netti —

Relevance to pantheism or panentheism?

It underpins the development of the idea. Is it Revealed, or is it a human intellect construct?

Underpinning that is all Revelation necessarily involves the intellect in making it intelligible. The question then is whether the intellect is informed by the Higher.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on common ground with respect to End of Times, that is, the idea of salvation.

OK. Then let me posit that question directly to Seattlegal. Post follows ...

Thomas

 

[Netti-Netti]

Is the Taoist understanding of the creation of the world materialistic or does it call for a "design"/consciousness/Divine Mind concept?

If the world the product of some kind of naturalistic progression in the formation of matter, there would be no need to invoke a more elaborate creation concept. And there would probably be no point in looking for anything on "redemption" or "salvation" in a materialistic/naturistic religion unless it relates to some other world that is totally beyond this materialistically determined one and yet somehow accessible to us from this one.

 

[seattlegal]

Is the Taoist understanding of the creation of the world materialistic or does it call for a "design"/consciousness/Divine Mind concept?

If the world the product of some kind of naturalistic progression in the formation of matter, there would be no need to invoke a more elaborate creation concept. And there would probably be no point in looking for anything on "redemption" or "salvation" in a materialistic/naturistic religion unless it relates to some other world that is totally beyond this materialistically determined one and yet somehow accessible to us from this one.

I would start by asking a Feng Shui practicioner about what they think about Design, Intelligence, and Intelligent Design.

 

[seattlegal]

Arrgg! Happy Rosh Hashana, Avi. It's also "Talk Like a Pirate Day," which is quite popular with the Pastafarians over at the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. (They are also all about Intelligent Design)

Not only do the Pirates hold back global warming, but they also received the "Eight I'd Really Rather You Didn't's" from the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Hey, I like the Pastafarians. Everyone needs a good skeptic. I like the Eight I'd Really Rather You Didn't's, as well. However, their idea of Heaven sound suspiciously like it's in the Preta (Hungry Ghosts) realm, with the Beer Volcano and the Stripper Factory.

So Argghh! Have ye a Happy New Year! Arrggh!

 

[Netti-Netti]

I would start by asking a Feng Shui practicioner about what they think about Design, Intelligence, and Intelligent Design.

A friend does Feng Shui professionally. I ask her what
she does. She tells me she does "Nothing." Personally,
I think she's just being clever & esoteric when she
talks about that No-Doing thing she does.

You describe it as chaos. Lao Tzu described it
as the way and as great, and described the order that
is associated with it

I dont know exactly what the "law of the Tao" is. But if
Wu-Wei is any indication (as a method of channeling the
Tao), chaos may be an appropriate descriptor.

Wu-Wei is commonly said to mean "nondoing" or "nonaction"
As it turns out, several sources suggest the term better
translates as "anarchy."

 

[seattlegal]

A friend does Feng Shui professionally. I ask her what
she does. She tells me she does "Nothing." Personally,
I think she's just being clever & esoteric when she
talks about that No-Doing thing she does.

Have you asked her about design, intelligence, and intelligent design, yet?

I dont know exactly what the "law of the Tao" is. But if
Wu-Wei is any indication (as a method of channeling the
Tao), chaos may be an appropriate descriptor.

Does this sound like Chaos?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Therefore it is said, 'In representing the Dao of Heaven one uses the terms Yin and Yang, and in representing the Dao of Earth one uses the terms Soft and Hard, while in representing the Dao of Man, one uses the terms Love and Righteousness'.
~Zhou Dunyi, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Explanation to the Supreme Ultimate, referring to a saying from the Yi (Commentary of the I Ching)[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

Wu-Wei is commonly said to mean "nondoing" or "nonaction"
As it turns out, several sources suggest the term better
translates as "anarchy."

Links?
I can see how this conclusion might be made. If everyone was in balance with the Tao, (having the law written on their hearts, (to use an Abrahamic term,) then the need for government would be greatly reduced. It would be "the kingdom of Heaven."

 

[Avi]

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Not only do the Pirates hold back global warming, but they also received the "Eight I'd Really Rather You Didn't's" from the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Hey, I like the Pastafarians. Everyone needs a good skeptic. I like the Eight I'd Really Rather You Didn't's, as well. However, their idea of Heaven sound suspiciously like it's in the Preta (Hungry Ghosts) realm, with the Beer Volcano and the Stripper Factory.

Very cute stuff, SG . Bobby Henderson has quite a very creative mind !!

And thanks for the holiday wishes. Today we learned about the "Binding of Issac". A remarkable story, with a lot of room for deconstruction and reconstruction.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Links?

Here are some random quotes:

Tao Te Ching, is considered by some as one of the great anarchist classics.

The principal Taoist work, the Tao te ching, may be considered one of the greatest anarchist classics.
​

On the subject of Wu-Wei:

We might want to consider the philologically similar term, "anarchy," as a more appropriate translation of wuwei
​

~Roger T. Ames, Wandering at ease in the Zhuangzi, p. 7

Wu-Wei can be seen as a response that helps maximize one's creative possibilities within a given environment. Instead of a notion of salvation/redemption, it's about going for a goal of perfectedness which is situational and focused on the expansion of one's creative freedom.

Wu-wei describes a productively created relatedness...Ongoing creative achievement itself provides novel possibiities for a richer creativity.
​

(Ames, p. 8)

A notion of positive freedom would emphasize not allowing circumstances to dictate but instead making the situation work for you. Judo related to Taosim at all?

Also of interest: Taoism was considered impractical as a model for political society and not taken seriously in that regard.

Apparently Taoism was corrupted when it was made a religion. Imagine that.

 

[seattlegal]

Here are some random quotes:

Tao Te Ching, is considered by some as one of the great anarchist classics.

The principal Taoist work, the Tao te ching, may be considered one of the greatest anarchist classics.
​

On the subject of Wu-Wei:

We might want to consider the philologically similar term, "anarchy," as a more appropriate translation of wuwei
​

~Roger T. Ames, Wandering at ease in the Zhuangzi, p. 7

Wu-Wei can be seen as a response that helps maximize one's creative possibilities within a given environment. Instead of a notion of salvation/redemption, it's about going for a goal of perfectedness which is situational and focused on the expansion of one's creative freedom.

Wu-wei describes a productively created relatedness...Ongoing creative achievement itself provides novel possibiities for a richer creativity.
​

(Ames, p. 8)

I think we have a thread comparing anarchy and Taoism around here somewhere:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/anarchy-6816.html

A notion of positive freedom would emphasize not allowing circumstances to dictate but instead making the situation work for you. Judo related to Taosim at all?

Jui-jitsu, I believe, was practiced by the Samurai.

Also of interest: Taoism was considered impractical as a model for political society and not taken seriously in that regard.

Darned politicians not willing to give up their power!

Apparently Taoism was corrupted when it was made a religion. Imagine that.

You mean when the Confusionists (oops! I mean Confucianists) hijacked it?

 

[Netti-Netti]

If everyone was in balance with the Tao, (having the law written on their hearts, (to use an Abrahamic term,) then the need for government would be greatly reduced. It would be "the kingdom of Heaven."

I think it's a nice comparison - it has a an intuitive ring. And I see it holds up when you replace the word 'law with "Torah of Love":

I will put my Torah in their minds, and write it on their hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33

​

The idea of Torah relates to instruction or guidance. Did Taoist claim to receive divine guidance?

 

[seattlegal]

I think it's a nice comparison - it has a an intuitive ring. And I see it holds up when you replace the word 'law with "Torah of Love":

I will put my Torah in their minds, and write it on their hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33

​

The idea of Torah relates to instruction or guidance. Did Taoist claim to receive divine guidance?

They more point to how to be in the tao. Writing down any "divine revelation" and claiming to be such really goes against the grain of Taoism. (The Tao that can be Tao'ed is not the true Tao...)

 

[Thomas]

Not to sidetrack the conversation ...

Has anyone considered whether the Tao — and perhaps Buddhism — is a doctrine from the standpoint of absolute objectivity, whereas Hebraic and Christian revelation from the standpoint of absolute subjectivity?

In which case their would be a dimension of interiority in Christianity not present in other traditions.

And as such pantheism and panentheism would indicate an inability or failure to apprecaite the depth of the message, the mystery, or the interiority of the interiority.

Just some thoughts ...

Thomas

 

[dauer]

I don't really see panentheism as lacking in subjectivity, at least not when it's found in Judaism. If anything, the more pantheistic/panentheistic, the seemingly more comfortable the material can become with a lot of anthropomorphic language. Jay Michaelson discusses that a bit in an article on polytheism and nonduality:

Zeek | Polytheism and Nonduality | Jay Michaelson

 

[Thomas]

Hi Dauer —

... nor the concepts of philosophy ... can confine the unconfinable.

Indeed so, but they do moreover provide the basis by which the unconfinable can be approached, for without philosophy, there would be no such statements.

Yet since all masks are forbidden, all masks are permitted.

I find the author's defence of this statement flawed and unconvincing.

It's tantamount to saying that as philosophy can't contain the unconfinable, all and any ideas are permissable, which opens the door to fantasy and sentimentalism of either a positive or negative determination.

Thomas

 

[seattlegal]

Would you categorize "suchness" as objective, or as subjective? Both?

What about dukkha? Objective, subjective, or both? Neither?

 

[wil]

in·te·ri·or·i·ty noun
Date: 1701
1 : interior quality or character
2 : inner life or substance : psychological existence

Namaste Thomas, are you positing that non abrahamic religions are without the above??

And interstingly enough, googling absolute subjectivity provides references to Confucianism, Hinduism, Zen, Chinese Philosophy....

 

[dauer]

Thomas,

you didn't respond to what I stated, only to the article I presented as an example of of Jewish pan/panentheism with more subjectivity than many other views. I was responding to your statements that pantheism and panentheism " indicate an inability or failure to apprecaite the depth of the message, the mystery, or the interiority of the interiority." Re-reading you however I may have misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that pantheism and panentheism are to do with absolute objectivity rather than subjectivity. But it seems pretty plain to me that pantheism and panentheism can use highly subjective language.

I find the author's defence of this statement flawed and unconvincing.

It's tantamount to saying that as philosophy can't contain the unconfinable, all and any ideas are permissable, which opens the door to fantasy and sentimentalism of either a positive or negative determination.

I don't think you understand what he's arguing or how. This isn't a philosophical treatise. It's an article for a general audience. His language here is more poetic than it is philosophical. His issue is anthropomorphic language. If the issue that troubles monotheism is seeing a particular mask, a particular partzuf/face or interface as God, because it elevates that thing, then panentheism (which from a Jewish perspective might be seen as monotheistic in that all tenured Jewish views are monotheistic and panentheism is a tenured Jewish view) resolves the issue because all is a part of God and God is accessible through all. The masks he's referring to aren't something literally understood or concrete. They're not equivalent to all ideas. They're along the lines of "Torah speaks in the language of man." It is for the benefit of man and not descriptive of God. You could of course argue from this that panentheism too should be understood as God-language, not descriptive, rather for man's sake, and I wouldn't disagree if you did. But I am one who is willing to go so far as to say that God may only be a psychological construct, limited to individual minds, with no transcendent quality whatsoever, nor any presence beyond what the human imagination projects onto the world around it. The standard definitions of God then would only be theological expressions of what can better be understood psychologically.

If we were to reconstruct a logical argument for Jay Michaelson I think it would begin with the assumption that something is lost in an entirely abstract conceptualization of the Divine and that a position which allows for subjective relating is more desirable. I don't think you disagree with that much. But he'd probably also have to include the premise that, when dealing with God-language, more subjectivity is more desirable. I think this is where you might begin to disagree.

-- Dauer

 

[Netti-Netti]

Hi Dauer,

....I am one who is willing to go so far as to say that God may only be a psychological construct, limited to individual minds, with no transcendent quality whatsoever, nor any presence beyond what the human imagination projects onto the world around it. The standard definitions of God then would only be theological expressions of what can better be understood psychologically.

My own feeling is that a psychological understanding does not preclude a theological one. Deconstruction does not destroy spiritual meaning, but actually provides an avenue for really making one's faith a living faith.

Some of the panetheistic authors I mentioned are far from literalist theologians. They do their best to demythologize, but in the process they make religious phenomena more real. They do not reduce it to psychological ephemera. I do not get the impression that they feel their views in any way detract from the Divine.

To me, this is the importance of panentheism: Pantheism obscures the relation between human and Divine by equating them. Panentheism brings the Divine into focus as a present reality and shows us that our path is to become increasingly responsible toward the Divine that is continuously meeting us half way and then some. We hallow the world by treating it as G-d's body, In effect, by recognizing the sacred in the world, we are able to "rejoice in G-d." (Martin Buber).