Namaste Dream,
Thank ewe for the example.
While eye KNOW G!d is in all things, eye sometimes have issues seeing G!d in all things.
Pantheism and Panentheism
- Thread starter Avi
- Start date
Thank ewe for the example.
While eye KNOW G!d is in all things, eye sometimes have issues seeing G!d in all things.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Yeah, me too, Wil. I have little problem with most things, even things I do not like, but mundane household items are a stretch... the can opener = God? The couch? A sock?
On some level, yes. But emotionally, well, let's just say my mystical experiences don't usually come from the recycle bin or washing machine.
I can't read/comment on 11 pages... but I do want to say... that while Thomas equates panentheism with the appearance of things, I would disagree. Panentheism, for me, is acknowledging God in all things and beyond all things. It is the "beyond all things" that allows me to conceive of God as a process that unfolds- and thus the source and cause of all things. God is both the cause and the effect, the source and its unfolding. The beginning, the ending, and all the parts in between.
I find it somewhat useful to think about singularities and the universe. God wrapped tightly into Herself, curled into an unimaginably tiny and unified and powerful point... and then unfurling into everything- including me.
No, God is not "only" the singularity (we likely live in a multiverse, after all) but meditating on the singularity and its unfolding into the universe is helpful to remind myself that I and everything/everyone around me is bound together by the Divine process of unfolding. In Her we live, move, and have our being.
At my essence, I am Her emptiness and Her fullness.
On some level, yes. But emotionally, well, let's just say my mystical experiences don't usually come from the recycle bin or washing machine.
I can't read/comment on 11 pages... but I do want to say... that while Thomas equates panentheism with the appearance of things, I would disagree. Panentheism, for me, is acknowledging God in all things and beyond all things. It is the "beyond all things" that allows me to conceive of God as a process that unfolds- and thus the source and cause of all things. God is both the cause and the effect, the source and its unfolding. The beginning, the ending, and all the parts in between.
I find it somewhat useful to think about singularities and the universe. God wrapped tightly into Herself, curled into an unimaginably tiny and unified and powerful point... and then unfurling into everything- including me.
No, God is not "only" the singularity (we likely live in a multiverse, after all) but meditating on the singularity and its unfolding into the universe is helpful to remind myself that I and everything/everyone around me is bound together by the Divine process of unfolding. In Her we live, move, and have our being.
At my essence, I am Her emptiness and Her fullness.
That is interesting because I have never had any problem believing that a can opener or a couch or a sock are part of G-d. This makes perfect sense to me because in my view everything in totality makes up G-d. They are all parts of G-d.
The perspective that has not made sense to me, ever since I was very young, was of G-d as a man, sitting up in space, looking over his kingdom. The anthropomorphic G-d, the corporeal G-d have never really made much sense to me. Maybe it is the Jewish influence on me ??
immortalitylost
Say Meow.
I feel the same way Avi, and I take it to a place that is apparently very non-meshing* with the christian background I was brought up in.
Because, if God is in the landfill, and the diseases, and the corpses of the uncountable dead things, as well as the can opener, Santa, the remote, crystal meth, defibrillators... If he's a part of everything, good and bad, I can't see how he can be a being of only good that has nothing to do with any of the bad things, bad people, or the bad actions of those people, even the evil actions.
In seeing God in everything, I found myself coming to the conclusion --apparently an erroneous conclusion to most-- that God created bad things, and evil things, right along with the good things. And that everything, in the end, is good, and has a purpose.
So like, evil is just as good as good in the grand scheme of it all. It's here, God is in it, so I trust that it's not accidental. I believe it has a purpose.
But mayhaps that's just me...
I dunno...
* <--Couldn't think of anything better. Too lazy to look in a thesaurus, lol.
The word thesaurus makes me think of a dinosaur... is that strange?
Because, if God is in the landfill, and the diseases, and the corpses of the uncountable dead things, as well as the can opener, Santa, the remote, crystal meth, defibrillators... If he's a part of everything, good and bad, I can't see how he can be a being of only good that has nothing to do with any of the bad things, bad people, or the bad actions of those people, even the evil actions.
In seeing God in everything, I found myself coming to the conclusion --apparently an erroneous conclusion to most-- that God created bad things, and evil things, right along with the good things. And that everything, in the end, is good, and has a purpose.
So like, evil is just as good as good in the grand scheme of it all. It's here, God is in it, so I trust that it's not accidental. I believe it has a purpose.
But mayhaps that's just me...
I dunno...
* <--Couldn't think of anything better. Too lazy to look in a thesaurus, lol.
The word thesaurus makes me think of a dinosaur... is that strange?
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
I bet a lot of cosmologists are caught between the quiet panic that the Planck, Hershel and the revamped Hubble telescopes are going to blow all their favourite postulations out of the water and the excitement that the new data will bring.
For me it always come down to whether you accept Infinity as being real or not. If infinity does exist, and I cannot conceive of an alternative, then even the biggest god we can think about is a speck of next to nothing in something far larger. So what is the point? If we had some real evidence of any design, which despite strenuous efforts we emphatically do not have, then there would be some point to such musings. But with the evidence we dont have speculating on such an entity is no more important than any other flight of fiction. And it is this that I find not so much objectionable, though it can be, as absurd and ridiculous. It is giving weight and importance where none is due. And as I see it this lending of weight gives sanction to and props up more extreme variants that demand certitude and obedience. What may appear as a benign, even positive, acceptance of an idea as some sort of truth allows other more extreme truths some degree of respectability.
There are many reasons people wish to embrace belief, every believer has his or her own story to tell, but when you boil it all down the belief does not exist outside of their wish to believe. This is ok, so long as it is understood on such terms.....yet it rarely is.
The universe has scale telescopically and microscopically that confounds the worlds brightest brains to even describe let alone quantify or assemble any unified theory. Despite the hyperbole I reckon we are centuries away from understanding what our local universe is in any meaningful description. Layering on top of what we do not know some weird creator entity is just silly. And the reasons to attempt doing so have nothing to do with actual reality but rather an internal reality we have become culturally accustomed to crave.
For me it always come down to whether you accept Infinity as being real or not. If infinity does exist, and I cannot conceive of an alternative, then even the biggest god we can think about is a speck of next to nothing in something far larger. So what is the point? If we had some real evidence of any design, which despite strenuous efforts we emphatically do not have, then there would be some point to such musings. But with the evidence we dont have speculating on such an entity is no more important than any other flight of fiction. And it is this that I find not so much objectionable, though it can be, as absurd and ridiculous. It is giving weight and importance where none is due. And as I see it this lending of weight gives sanction to and props up more extreme variants that demand certitude and obedience. What may appear as a benign, even positive, acceptance of an idea as some sort of truth allows other more extreme truths some degree of respectability.
There are many reasons people wish to embrace belief, every believer has his or her own story to tell, but when you boil it all down the belief does not exist outside of their wish to believe. This is ok, so long as it is understood on such terms.....yet it rarely is.
The universe has scale telescopically and microscopically that confounds the worlds brightest brains to even describe let alone quantify or assemble any unified theory. Despite the hyperbole I reckon we are centuries away from understanding what our local universe is in any meaningful description. Layering on top of what we do not know some weird creator entity is just silly. And the reasons to attempt doing so have nothing to do with actual reality but rather an internal reality we have become culturally accustomed to crave.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
You are thinking of theosaurus shoorly?
theo⋅sau⋅rus
/θɪˈsɔr
Show Spelled Pronunciation [thi-o-sawr-uh
Show IPA–noun, plural -sau⋅rus⋅es, -sau⋅ri /-ˈsɔr
Show Spelled Pronunciation [-sawr-ahy] Show IPA . 1. a believer of usually Abrahamic religions. 2. a beliver that goes by the name of Thomas on Interfaith.org. 3. someone who uses religion to deny thinking progressively. 4. A person whos thinking belongs in the Jurassic period. /θɪˈsɔr
Show Spelled /-ˈsɔr
Torn between commenting on what I perceive to be inappropriate or just ignoring it and seemingly finding a happy medium.
Ever seen the hologram concept, you cut the hologram and you still have the entire hologram only smaller. I see it something like that. Your canopener is all of G!d and a connection to G!d. All of G!d is also over here. and there, and in you...omnipresence...all of G!d isn't limited to our visons of time and space and physicality.
nativeastral
fluffy future
phanks dream phor your alliterative ponderings and putting your phinger on phit is the phreaking problem perhaps philosophically speaking preempting any premature phinalisation on the phascination of pan en theism!
sure, didn't want to state the obvious, of course, it was greek philosophy, and of course revision continues according to todays revelations, now spearheaded by science. But its still the story of the 'fate' of being born and the 'destiny' of dying and how to be at p ease [salvatory= cure, remedy] within those two points and any speculation beyond it, the why of it all.
Their re vision is comparable to our re visions according to the revelations of scientific discoveries, which it could be argued hasn't undermined any ancient metaphysical speculations yet; how do we know that they didn't accept, in principle, over a jar or two, the ramblings of some wandering eastern sage? The convergence of thought is undeniable
greek/indian rationalist thought ; one has only to choose one or other of the two logoi theory of protagoras, and Christianity by default chose the unique temporal and historical logos of judaism, rather than the timeless cyclical one of the greeks, hence the outrage it evinced, and the paradox that ensues.
Proclus influenced the transcendentalists, ' His work inspired the New England Transcendentalists, including Ralph Waldo Emerson, who declared in 1843 that, in reading Proclus, "I am filled with hilarity & spring, my heart dances, my sight is quickened, I behold shining relations between all beings, and am impelled to write and almost to sing." '.
The whole has to be envisaged as a structure to account for the complexity of the parts hence the hierarchy and levels built into any system of thought trying to comprehend the truth of reality. We can continue to perceive in the separation of the source from the streams or embrace the interconnectedness and relations of the All of Being and move forward knowing we all have this daimonic being within; the devil is in the details.
shawn
Well-Known Member
All things are "good" (and God saw the creation he had made and said that it was very good..or..most excellent....
)....things cannot really be good or bad, they just are.
What is good or bad is what beings, with a power of choice, choose to use those things for, and the unfolding consequences of those choices.
Paul wrote to the Colossians (2:16-23), "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come.... Why do you submit to regulations, ‘Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch’ (referring to things which all perish as they are used), according to human precepts and doctrines. …"
So:
These things, to be sure, have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value.....
It isn't what you put into your mouth (or by extension lungs or veins), but what comes out of your mouth and what you choose to do that is the issue.
Those who make laws governing consumption are themselves up to an evil plan.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
I also believe this. I have no problem with it intellectually. But I've never had mystical experiences with the can opener. LOL I find I relate to the concept of God differently when I consider different ways of relating- philosophically or intellectually vs. emotionally vs. whatever else.
The perspective that has not made sense to me, ever since I was very young, was of G-d as a man, sitting up in space, looking over his kingdom. The anthropomorphic G-d, the corporeal G-d have never really made much sense to me. Maybe it is the Jewish influence on me ??
Yeah, me neither. My first mystical experience with what I would call "God Herself" (rather than a manifestation of God, such as we find in people, plants, etc.) was a dream in which I was entirely held in white light. I felt an expansiveness and watchfulness, but nothing about it felt human at all. I was about 10 at the time. Never could see God as a human-like entity again. I mean, I can see God manifesting as all sorts of things- everything, really. But not God-in-Herself as being a human-like entity.
immortalitylost
Say Meow.
Interesting, as a Catholic theologian, Nicholas of Cusa, was instrumental in introducing infinity into Western science and mathematics.
It also shows wrong thinking about the infinite, as you're applying size and therefore dimension, the infinite is not the biggest spatial dimension on can conceive, the infinite is above spatial dimension, time, space etc. do not apply in the infinite.
Thomas
The difference in Christian doctrine is subtle, but all-important.
All things subsist by the will of God, but God is not part of their existence, not part of their nature ... else the question is, where is God in a sock or a sofa?
Then you don't understand the nature of evil. Evil, by definition, means against the will of God, so if God wills both what He wills, and what He does not will, you end up with utter contradiction and a God that doesn't know His own mind...
Another way to look at it is:
All things exist by the will of God, but those things endowed with a free and rational nature (humans and angels) have the freedom to act according to their own will — if they choose to act towards God, which is towards truth, reality, being, etc., then that is 'good' ... if they however wilfully and knowingly act towards their own satisfaction, knowing it to be contrary to the good of all, then that is evil.
God then is not the author of the act, the acting agent is. So the evil is in the acting agent, not in God.
Well that's one of the fallacies of panentheism. You end up thinking everything is willed by God, therefore everything is good even though I can't see it — even child abuse, genocide, etc., (and there are those who would argue precisely that) ... and eventually that everything 'I' do is good, because it's what God wants me to do ... and everything that happens is down to God, not me, I am blameless, and therefore cannot be judged, therefore all your talk of hell etc., is nonsense ...
Unless, of course, as a panentheist God is both good and evil, then it's logical that such a God wills that maybe one or two in every generation makes it into paradise (maybe none, maybe one or two a century), and the rest go to perdition.
Thomas
immortalitylost
Say Meow.
That's how you define evil, based on your perspective. I doubt that people who don't know God don't know evil.
But we've had this dance before...
All your talk of hell is nonsense to me. And since it's nonsense to me, all your talk about this or that god sending one or two of every generation into perdition is nonsense. I understand what you are saying. I don't believe in it, but I understand. It's not so subtle that it's escaped my feeble grasp.
But, I'm pretty sure that from what you just posted that you don't understand where I'm coming from. And that's fine. You don't have to.
The worst thing in this world is not learning from all of the experiences that you are given. And that's my two cents. (^_^)
But we've had this dance before...
All your talk of hell is nonsense to me. And since it's nonsense to me, all your talk about this or that god sending one or two of every generation into perdition is nonsense. I understand what you are saying. I don't believe in it, but I understand. It's not so subtle that it's escaped my feeble grasp.
But, I'm pretty sure that from what you just posted that you don't understand where I'm coming from. And that's fine. You don't have to.
The worst thing in this world is not learning from all of the experiences that you are given. And that's my two cents. (^_^)
But they know good ... and they know evil is not good ... so a God who is good, is not and does not will evil, so evil comes from a source other than God.
That's probably because you envision some kind of Medieval torture chamber. Suffice to say that's not my idea of hell either — for me Hell is no longer participating in Life or Being ... it's the loss of everything so, eventually, even one's own being and existence.
That's pretty much how Christ described it, if you read through the symbolism.
OK. Then you would have understood that IO don't believe it either, but it could well be implicit in your system. I don't believe that child abduction, assault and murder is a 'good' in any way, for the victim, the offender, or anyone else involved. You seem to think it is.
Oh, I think I do.
OK. What does one learn from being raped, I wonder?
I think shifting the responsibility of all our faults onto God is the worst thing man can do, it denies God, and it's a denial of self.
Thomas
I know many who strive toward the complete non judgement, everything just is... I still can't get there. I'm still stuck at it is all good.
G!d is right there in that sock and in that sofa...give thanks.
Now for the definition.... What dictionary are you using?
Some folks would definitely see it as evil for G!d to tell someone to sacrifice his son. Or go and smite a town or whole people.
As to rape, and any of the atrocities man commits against man, it is my contention that I have not the capacity to see the good in it, but I know it is there. Others have gone through rape, and forgiven their attacker, created foundations or support groups for other victims, done a tremendous amount of good out of that evil... I'm not saying that is the purpose. Rape is a violent act, one which was the common way to introduce marriage for millenia, and unfortunately still is in some areas. Let's hope it is something we as a people will grow out of someday and no longer see a need for it.
But while we are on the subject, sometimes G!d told a people to slaughter a whole town, men, women and children...but save the virgins... what do you think he directed them to save them for??
Where, exactly? And why, cos you say so?
Now that is a dark road ...No. Quite. Nor was it in the intention of the rapist, but rather of the victim ... so that's a false justification.
By the way, you do realise you are justifying the aggressor by this argument?
Furthermore you're taking away any virtue from the victim and awarding it to the aggressor, too.
OK. Rape and murder. Of an eight year old. Where's the good in that, in your philosophy?
Thomas
shawn
Well-Known Member
Nay thomas, wil seems to be saying that good can and has and will continue to come from "bad" experiences.
That is wrong to say that he is justifying those horrible things.
Someone made the choice to do them and it does affect others and that is tragic.,,now what does the victim do????
vendetta??
self-destruct???
or make lemonade (you know....when life hands you lemons)
You are being unnecessarily contrary just because some people do not agree with your nice neat little cosmology.
Not everyone does, nor will.
I don't agree with the main theme of your conclusions about how life IS either, but I recognize that you do have some interesting bits of info which are informative and useful, which is the point of these forums.
That is wrong to say that he is justifying those horrible things.
Someone made the choice to do them and it does affect others and that is tragic.,,now what does the victim do????
vendetta??
self-destruct???
or make lemonade (you know....when life hands you lemons)
You are being unnecessarily contrary just because some people do not agree with your nice neat little cosmology.
Not everyone does, nor will.
I don't agree with the main theme of your conclusions about how life IS either, but I recognize that you do have some interesting bits of info which are informative and useful, which is the point of these forums.
shawn
Well-Known Member
It says in scripture "God is the author of good and evil" (I don't have time to look up the passage right now)
God is said to be omniscient which is to know all things before they occur.
And the source of all prophecy is due to this attribute, so before God made any men or angels, He knew exactly what each and every one of them was going to do....and he still made them....just the way they were.
So you can argue about the fallen angels there thomas and sinful people and some kind of "evil nature" , but it will always unravel at the doctrine of the omniscience of God, who made everything and so is responsible for all His handiwork....ultimately.
But I will always say that people are accountable for what they do and so should make good and healthy choices.
God is said to be omniscient which is to know all things before they occur.
And the source of all prophecy is due to this attribute, so before God made any men or angels, He knew exactly what each and every one of them was going to do....and he still made them....just the way they were.
So you can argue about the fallen angels there thomas and sinful people and some kind of "evil nature" , but it will always unravel at the doctrine of the omniscience of God, who made everything and so is responsible for all His handiwork....ultimately.
But I will always say that people are accountable for what they do and so should make good and healthy choices.
immortalitylost
Say Meow.
Thomas, you've never learned from evils that have happened to you? You've never grown from awful things happening to you? You've never seen the good, and the learning that comes about globally after terrible evils are committed? The acts of evil in and of themselves mean nothing. They are just things.
If fifty people are killed during an earthquake, and fifty people are killed by a terrorist bombing, fifty people die because of either action. I don't see how one is worse than another, but by people designating them so.
If a swarm of locusts eat all the crop causing a famine in a village, or a rebel organization steals all the food in a village causing a famine, children go hungry either way.
How do the evil deeds of men make a bad situation worse?
If God created everything, then he created evil. It's that simple. You can twist it any way you like, but it's that simple. I'm not blaming God. It's not a bad thing. Who am I to question what is really good and evil. I've not seen this universe from God's perspective. I've no idea if the things that we perceive as evil are truly evil at all. From all that I can figure our experiences here, good or bad, serve to mold us, and help us to grow spiritually. But I don't believe that we only get one go round at life, and I believe it takes the full gamut of earthly experience for us to grow completely in spirit.
There's a curve ball for ya. Bet you didn't know that about where I was comin from.
I don't view hell as a medieval torture chamber either. I don't believe, seeing the world that God has created, and the universe that he has created, where there is no wastefulness, that a God who created all of that would just chuck a good portion of his creation into an eternal hell. It's wasteful. There is no reason for it. It makes no sense, and therefore it is nonsense. I also do not believe hell is blinking out of existence. Like I said, it's wasteful and makes no sense. Not to me.
See, to me, evil and good are just forces. They both will always be on earth. Sometimes you go through life doing good, sometimes evil, sometimes you're rich, others poor, sometimes you're the victim, sometimes you're the perp. You go through every race, every religion, every experience possible. And I'm not limiting this to earth only. You learn from it all, consciously or not.
So it's all good. It's all one big lesson.
See, you believe simply that God=good, and evil comes from going against God. You won't even entertain any other role for God, so you cannot ever understand what I'm getting at. I find the equation God=good overly simplistic, seeing as the creation that God made is full of all kinds of things, good, evil, strange, comforting. I see God as the creator of all, and understanding all things, and their place in his creation.
God isn't just love. God isn't just Good. God created both of those terms and the meaning behind them. He also created the rest of the physical reality we are in the midst of. God is all, and is above all. And all is not as it seems, because from down here, we have no way of knowing what 'all' really is.
If fifty people are killed during an earthquake, and fifty people are killed by a terrorist bombing, fifty people die because of either action. I don't see how one is worse than another, but by people designating them so.
If a swarm of locusts eat all the crop causing a famine in a village, or a rebel organization steals all the food in a village causing a famine, children go hungry either way.
How do the evil deeds of men make a bad situation worse?
If God created everything, then he created evil. It's that simple. You can twist it any way you like, but it's that simple. I'm not blaming God. It's not a bad thing. Who am I to question what is really good and evil. I've not seen this universe from God's perspective. I've no idea if the things that we perceive as evil are truly evil at all. From all that I can figure our experiences here, good or bad, serve to mold us, and help us to grow spiritually. But I don't believe that we only get one go round at life, and I believe it takes the full gamut of earthly experience for us to grow completely in spirit.
There's a curve ball for ya. Bet you didn't know that about where I was comin from.
I don't view hell as a medieval torture chamber either. I don't believe, seeing the world that God has created, and the universe that he has created, where there is no wastefulness, that a God who created all of that would just chuck a good portion of his creation into an eternal hell. It's wasteful. There is no reason for it. It makes no sense, and therefore it is nonsense. I also do not believe hell is blinking out of existence. Like I said, it's wasteful and makes no sense. Not to me.
See, to me, evil and good are just forces. They both will always be on earth. Sometimes you go through life doing good, sometimes evil, sometimes you're rich, others poor, sometimes you're the victim, sometimes you're the perp. You go through every race, every religion, every experience possible. And I'm not limiting this to earth only. You learn from it all, consciously or not.
So it's all good. It's all one big lesson.
See, you believe simply that God=good, and evil comes from going against God. You won't even entertain any other role for God, so you cannot ever understand what I'm getting at. I find the equation God=good overly simplistic, seeing as the creation that God made is full of all kinds of things, good, evil, strange, comforting. I see God as the creator of all, and understanding all things, and their place in his creation.
God isn't just love. God isn't just Good. God created both of those terms and the meaning behind them. He also created the rest of the physical reality we are in the midst of. God is all, and is above all. And all is not as it seems, because from down here, we have no way of knowing what 'all' really is.