Pantheism and Panentheism

'everything that is in the heavens, on the earth, and under the earth is penetrated with relatedness' hildegard of bingen
Absolutely.

hi Thomas, check this guy out
Whoa! Goldmine!

maybe I'm reading it wrong ... but to me it's saying the ground is nothing like the world is, and the world is nothing like the ground is ...
The ultimate purpose of the coming-into-being, therefore, and the manner of its creation, are unknowable to us, transcending finite powers of comprehension. Even the general notions of 'origination,' 'coming from,' 'creation,' 'causation,' and formation' can be applied to the relation between finite being and its transcendent ground only analogically; for the meanings of these terms derive from our understanding of relations between finite beings."
Good stuff! Can we then posit that both pantheism and panentheism suppose the analogous relation (one of transposed meaning) to be an actual relation — something that the above, and Christian apophatism, argue against?

It is curious that, in the West, the champions of the apophatic tradition within Christianity — Denys, Eriugena, Eckhart, Nicholas of Cusa — have all been accused of, or even condemned for, pantheism or panentheism, something they all rigourously deny.

Thanks again for the link.

Thomas
 
This thread makes me smile - the root of Panentheism is the limit of the human subjective experience, and the necessary uncertainty that brings into it when describing God and Existence.
 
Avi said:
From my JPS commentary (1999, p. 10)

What you've quoted doesn't say that he didn't believe in an anthropomorphic, corporeal God. We have a moment in the Torah where he gets into an argument with said Deity. The only thing the JPS commentary tells us is that the in the Abraham narratives God is portrayed in less anthropomorphic terms than in the earlier narratives.

I also believe his rejection of idolatry is proof of this belief.

Why do you believe that a rabbinic midrash about Abraham is historically accurate?

Were you a different person, I wouldn't ask you all of this. I respect that different people have different views of the nature of sacred text. But thus far the view that you're presenting doesn't make sense alongside your intense rationalism and skepticism. Why, if so rationalist, do you place some Torah and even some midrash on such a high pedestal in terms of historical veracity?
 
And, I was watching this show about the first second after the big bang showing stages in plank time, and it reminded me a lot of how a baby grows. It was weird, but just some more of that syncronicity, lol. ;)
You really do not want to get me started on black holes :D

Because the universe shows signs of its own inhering rationality?
Where? As far as I can see we know almost nothing about what the universe is, how it came to be or where it is headed.

I could respond the same might be said of science ... why do you keep looking for the answers to things ... why to understand things ... why do you invent 'laws of nature'? (who were the philosophers who opposed the idea of cause and effect?)
There is a big difference between looking for answers and claiming to have found them. I have invented nothing. There are scientific theories that appear to make some sense in that they make predictions that are in turn confirmed. Some of those are elevated to laws because they repeatedly confirm predictions. Are you arguing that any branch of theology can do the same? My dispute is that theology of any description has anything of any real value to contribute to furthering human understanding of the reality of existence. At its very best it is philosophy, yet it is rarely at its best. Usually its is just a crass obfuscation designed to cloud real thinking and offer instead a surrogate of banal certitude. A certitude designed to affirm a standard tier based power structure that actually suppresses ingenuity and progress. Theology is about people not about nature. About ruling and controlling and taxing and selling absolutely nothing at all as though it were valuable. All this who said this or that centuries ago is nonsense. Pure, meaningless and irrelevant bull. It has nothing whatever to do with what reality is.



You seem to know that your idea of perfection would be the same as this deity, if such exists...

s.
I have no idea of perfection. And I am not the one claiming a perfect all seeing, all knowing deity.

(Quote taken from your post number 5,577 :))

Is either more wasteful:

a) People discussing nonsensical minutae that doesn't friggen matter.

b) Watching people discussing nonsensical minutae that doesn't friggen matter.

s.

Point taken. Cant help myself. I'm addicted. Maybe I should convert.... and at least make it profitable...
[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-FOfSQFQCDc&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-FOfSQFQCDc&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]
 
Philip Clayton has been working on Christian Panentheism for a while. He notes that there is an internal and external aspect:
Panentheism adds a new element into the mix with its distinction between “internal” and “external” ways of conceiving G-d. Panentheists maintain that the model of a G-d who exists outside the physical order that he created and who intervenes into it as necessary ...
If you observe nature and see that the natural order of things seems to be self-regulating, with no apparent need for divine intervention, one might wonder whether G-d is involved with any of that. Personally, I believe the material world was created to function in a fairly predictable, reliable, and orderly way so that the evolution of Soul Matter would be more efficient.

Practically speaking, Creation is hard to manage as a focus of inquiry. None of us were there to see what actually happened and how the Universe came to be. Accordingly, an Internalistic focus might make more sense:
(U)nder the externalist model the creativity and goal-directedness has to come from the outside, to be introduced by God into the system de novo. Under the internalist model, the divine creativity manifests itself inside the system. It appears to be an inherent property of this natural order for it to evolve creatively into what we most value: conscious beings who think, will, judge ... and raise the question of their ultimate origin.
Nature repeats itself. Conscious beings, on the other hand, have the ability to add new variations by virtue of being to evaluate the past and plan for the future. Some would say that these processes of change are not really relevant to G-d, who (presumably) is is utterly transcendent and immutable/unchanging.
Thomas Aquinas, who genuinely sought to balance both, was hobbled by his Aristotelian theory of knowledge and by a metaphysics of perfection that identified goodness with immutability. As a result, he allowed God to know the world only through the forms of worldly things located in the mind of G-d, rather than knowing material things through their ever-changing “accidental” qualities. A G-d who directly responded to the world at some point would be different after that point than before, hence changing, hence imperfect. (U)nfortunately, a G-d who cannot respond to the world cannot show genuine compassion toward it either.
Of course the Bible depicts a G-d who is quite different from the abstract theological one. The Father appears as being very involved with Creation. This involvement is of interest from an Internalist view of Panentheism:
Nothing we do influences or changes the essential nature of G-d, and G-d could have existed with no less perfection without us. At the same time, however, it’s true that our actions do affect the responsive nature of G-d: that “part” of G-d that emerges out of G-d’s response to the universe and to humanity. This process insight — that a responsive God is greater, is more fully G-d, than a dispassionate G-d-above-history — beautifully summarizes a deep underlying motivation of panentheism. G-d is the all embracing presence; we live and move and have our being within that Presence; G-d continually responds to our thoughts and actions with all the perfection of G-d’s character; and that interweaving of our action and G-d’s response of grace yields an overall whole that is richer than either would have been on its own.

http://www.akademieforum.de/grenzfragen/open/grundlagen/clay_neuro/PanentheistInternalism.pdf
 
You really do not want to get me started on black holes :D

Why? Will you splode? Now u've got me curious, lol. You poor poor man. :p

Where? As far as I can see we know almost nothing about what the universe is, how it came to be or where it is headed.
I tink he meant all of our theories, like work, because the universe is not the complete chaos it could be. I tend to agree of course. I just have to be difficult. ;)

I have no idea of perfection. And I am not the one claiming a perfect all seeing, all knowing deity.
I claim to believe in an all knowing all being all powerful diety that other than guessing about those three things I know s0d all about. Like I said... difficult. :D

Everybody raise your hands who in all reality have no effing clue!

*hands round the world shoot skywards*

Wow. More people were honest than I expected. How very pleasant... :)

I think I've got the warm fuzzies. *looks at watch* Nope! Just forgot to take my medication.

Lolz. :cool: *leaves the thread whistling innocently*
 
Hi Netti-Netti. Your post seems to say much the same thing as Ecclesiates 3. :)
Hi Seattlegal. Yes, in some ways. In other ways it would seem to be different...
Who knows if the spirit of people rises upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? (Ecclesiates 3:21)
Evolutionary panentheism would suggest that Soul Matter is evolving toward G-d in ways that transcend history. "My Kingdom is not of tis earth." It is a Kingdom of divine values toward which all of Creation is moving.
Know that all God does will last forever; there is no adding to it or taking from it. (Ecclesiates 3:14)
A panentheistic view would suggest that G-d is changing in response to the evolutionary changes happening with His Creation (relational panentheism). As Aquinas tells us: God is in all things and without the divine power that keeps it all going "all things would drop into nothingness instantly." But Creation does not passively reflect the Creator's divine action. Conscious beings have the ability to decide how they will participate in the process.

G-d is involved with every aspect of Creation, but especially among conscious beings those who seek G-d's love in an attitude of faith. Sanctifying grace is not just the single event of atonement through Jesus' sacrifice. Grace is G-d's transformative immanence in every situation where conscious beings seeks divine counsel.
Amid her fluidity, G-d is always the same G-d, though flowing and changing like a river, rather than static and changeless like a rock. She is constant in her love but changing and adaptive. To have faith in her is is not to hold onto her as the one exception to change. Rather, it is to trust in the flow of her grace, to trust that no matter what our situation, she will be there as a companion working to guide us toward the fullness of life,
~Jay Byrd McDaniel , Of G-d and pelicans: a theology of reverence for life p.109

 
Philip Clayton has been working on Christian Panentheism for a while. He notes that there is an internal and external aspect:
Panentheism adds a new element into the mix with its distinction between “internal” and “external” ways of conceiving G-d. Panentheists maintain that the model of a G-d who exists outside the physical order that he created and who intervenes into it as necessary ...

This is a rather interesting distinction, can you please explain how the internal / external view is different from difference between pantheism and panentheism ?



Personally, I believe the material world was created to function in a fairly predictable, reliable, and orderly way so that the evolution of Soul Matter would be more efficient.

What is "Soul Matter" ?


Practically speaking, Creation is hard to manage as a focus of inquiry. None of us were there to see what actually happened and how the Universe came to be.
However, we can learn alot about it from deductive and inductive methods. I personally believe that in time we will learn more about creation than we can dream is possible.





Nature repeats itself. Conscious beings, on the other hand, have the ability to add new variations by virtue of being to evaluate the past and plan for the future. Some would say that these processes of change are not really relevant to G-d, who (presumably) is is utterly transcendent and immutable/unchanging.

Thomas Aquinas, who genuinely sought to balance both, was hobbled by his Aristotelian theory of knowledge and by a metaphysics of perfection that identified goodness with immutability. As a result, he allowed God to know the world only through the forms of worldly things located in the mind of G-d, rather than knowing material things through their ever-changing “accidental” qualities.
The "mind of G-d", rather anthropomorphic from my perspective. Does this cause a problem from your perspective as well ?


 
The only thing the JPS commentary tells us is that the in the Abraham narratives God is portrayed in less anthropomorphic terms than in the earlier narratives.
And this was exactly the point I was trying to make, still searching for relevent scripture.


Why do you believe that a rabbinic midrash about Abraham is historically accurate?
I do not believe it is historically accurate. I believe it is allegory.


Were you a different person, I wouldn't ask you all of this. I respect that different people have different views of the nature of sacred text.
As do I.

But thus far the view that you're presenting doesn't make sense alongside your intense rationalism and skepticism.
I do not see any contradiction. I believe in rationalism and am skeptical of miracles. Where is the contradiction ?

Why, if so rationalist, do you place some Torah and even some midrash on such a high pedestal in terms of historical veracity?
I think that rejection of anthropomorphism and corporeality were the most significant advances of Judaism at that time. And I am not alone, Maimonides thought of that before me.
 
Quote Avi:
He (Avraham) did not believe in an anthropomorphic corporealist G-d.
How do you know?

Probably a better explanation than I provided yesterday (although that was correct as well) is given in the JPS introduction (p. 5) and in Richard Elliott Friedmans book (Who Wrote the Bible, 1989, HarperOne) as follows:

It is possible to trace distinctive styles and theological notions that typify individual Torah sources. For example, the J source is well known for its anthropomorphic God, who has a close relationship with humans, as seen in Gen. 2.4-3.24, which includes, for example, a description of God "moving about (or walking) in the garden" (3.8) and says that God "made garments of skins for Adam and his wife, and clothed them (3.21). On the other hand, in E, the Elohist source, God is more distant from people, typically communicating with them by dreams or intermediaries, such as heavenly messangers or prophets.

The latter part of the Avrahamic stories, which Friedman calls: wife / sister, birth of Issac, Hagar and Ishmael, Abraham and Abimelech, and the binding of Issac - are all believed to be written by the E source.
 
Why? Will you splode? Now u've got me curious, lol. You poor poor man. :p
I am fascinated by black holes and am convinced they are what I would call natures matter generators. They make energies and matter above the plank scale possible by fabricating quantum scale material into 'bigger' bits. I believe black holes are what created everything visible to us. Understanding them is thus crucial before we can begin to get anywhere near capable of describing the visible universe.
On another thread I posted a link to what is known as a water maser. This is a distant black hole from, if you are using big bang theory for reference, the first generation of quazer galaxies some 12 billion light years distant. The SMBH of this ancient galactic seed is ejecting massive quantities of water into its disc. It is essential hydrating a galaxy with what we consider to be the most important substaance for biological life.
To me this science is far, far more important and relevant to actual truth than any theology. How can we speculate on a creator when we do not even know what we are looking at yet? You could liken an SMBH to a factory or an RNA encoded ribosome. You could go down the holographic route and consider these distant telescopic observations as looking through a microscope. But nowehere, but nowhere is there any design to be beheld. What we see works on chaos, a few simple barely understood laws and ceaseless change with no repetition and increasing complexity. There is nothing but nothing in the observations of any aspect of our physical universe, as we can observe it, that hints at anything but chance. So we need more data. Not idle speculations based on the third hand words of people that lived so long ago their educational life achievement was less than that of a modern average 8 yr old. It is ridiculous. All of theology is ridiculous. And pompous, arrogant, self serving and above all totally irrelevant if you are really interested in truth. Its actual contribution to the quest for truth is about as useful in its contribution as stamp collecting. So why does everybody pretend differently?
I tink he meant all of our theories, like work, because the universe is not the complete chaos it could be. I tend to agree of course. I just have to be difficult. ;)
Complete means that something has reached a stable form it will hold. Where is the merest suggestion that this has ever happened? Everything is in constant flux. Completion is a purely subjective term.
I claim to believe in an all knowing all being all powerful diety that other than guessing about those three things I know s0d all about. Like I said... difficult. :D
So what value has that belief?
Everybody raise your hands who in all reality have no effing clue!

*hands round the world shoot skywards*

Wow. More people were honest than I expected. How very pleasant... :)
But religous people do not do they, unless put on the spot and forced to. Even then many eyes roll back in their sockets and they do not even hear the question such is their fear, stupidity, self-protection or arrogance.

Some might think that I have lost all sight of the OP in what I have been saying but I have never for a moment forgotten it. Pantheism or Panentheism is like talking about what you would do with winnings from the lottery, before you even bought a ticket. Its foolishness.
 
Hi Tao —

When I said 'because the universe shows signs of its own inhering rationality', I mean there are indications of natural laws and an order to things ... otherwise how could we theorise about anything? All would be choas and anarchy.

Theists theorise the existence of a deity ... atheists theorise otherwise.

And if we really know as little about the world in which we live as you suggest, then we certainly don't know enough to say there isn't a deity, surely?

Thomas
 
A panentheistic view would suggest that G-d is changing in response to the evolutionary changes happening with His Creation (relational panentheism). As Aquinas tells us: God is in all things and without the divine power that keeps it all going "all things would drop into nothingness instantly." But Creation does not passively reflect the Creator's divine action. Conscious beings have the ability to decide how they will participate in the process.
But Aquinas points out that God does not change, nor is God subject to any change that happens in the Cosmos, God is 'in' all things because God is their ontological cause, and because they susbist by His will, but not because their nature is inherently divine.

Rational natures have the choice precisely because freedom is an aspect of their rationality.

If you're quoting Aquinas in support of panentheism, you've misunderstood Aquinas, as he's not a panentheist, not would he support such a theory.

Sanctifying grace is not just the single event of atonement through Jesus' sacrifice.
Well according to Christianity it is ... so I have no idea where you got that from.

Jesus is the Principle of Action of Sanctifying Grace, the focus and locus of which is the Cross. What was accomplished on the Cross in time and place was accomplished in the Eternal, so in that sense the Cross always was and always.

Thomas
 
Wow, you know a lot more about black holes than me. You've got me interested now, and I'll have to research, lol. I do think I've heard about that hologram thing you mentioned. Hmmm... definitely have to look into it more. :)

So what value has that belief?

Well, It's just a belief. It's a theory. It's a hope that there is some point to all of this, and it's not all just for nothing, and has no purpose. Like Thomas says. If we don't know enough to say that there is a God, we certainly don't know enough to say there isn't. It's all down to choice of belief. I choose to believe in a God, a universe with purpose, even if I have no clue about that God, or the purpose of this universe. Even if it looks like complete chaos, I just choose to believe that it only looks that way because we don't know anything about it. I choose to believe that there is something more than this life, and this limited knowledge. And you choose the opposite route. You choose to believe in what you can see and prove. Which is fine. It's all choice. And everyone comes at that choice from a different angle.
 
Hi Netti-Netti —

Thomas Aquinas, who genuinely sought to balance both, was hobbled by his Aristotelian theory of knowledge and by a metaphysics of perfection that identified goodness with immutability.
But change suggests the movement of an object towards it's end, which is it's good, and it's perfection. Once it has reached its perfection, it suffers no further need of change, or movement. Hence the idea of rest.

Anything that moves is metaphysically not perfect in itself, and/or not perfect in its place and time ...

As a result, he allowed God to know the world only through the forms of worldly things located in the mind of G-d, rather than knowing material things through their ever-changing “accidental” qualities.
Here the author misunderstands the philosophical meaning of the word 'accident' - which by any definition do not effect the essential nature of the object ... in modern philosophy, accidents are the union of property and contingency, but again, as any essence is not effected by contingency, then what the author seems to be saying is that the superficial and ephemeral appearance of this is as 'real' as their essential natures ... which is easily disproved.

A G-d who directly responded to the world at some point would be different after that point than before, hence changing, hence imperfect. (U)nfortunately, a G-d who cannot respond to the world cannot show genuine compassion toward it either.
Well if one posits God as transcending the spatiotemporal continuum, that's wrong, too.

At the same time, however, it’s true that our actions do affect the responsive nature of G-d: that “part” of G-d that emerges out of G-d’s response to the universe and to humanity. This process insight — that a responsive God is greater, is more fully G-d, than a dispassionate G-d-above-history — beautifully summarizes a deep underlying motivation of panentheism.
Only if one makes the fundamental mistake of assuming that humans don't change, and God does ... I rather suggest that it's not God's understanding that changes, but the human understanding of God.

G-d is the all embracing presence; we live and move and have our being within that Presence;
But we are not that Presence ...

G-d continually responds to our thoughts and actions with all the perfection of G-d’s character; and that interweaving of our action and G-d’s response of grace yields an overall whole that is richer than either would have been on its own.
Well as God foreknew the outcome, then God cannot be richer.

This argument brings God into 'this' side of space and time, and renders God subject to events that occur in space and time. The God of the philosophers, and the God of Christianity, stands above space and time.

So a workable panentheist process, I suppose, but not at a Christian one.

And by the way, Aquinas wasn't hobbled by Aristotle, he just used Aristotelian methodology, he didn't hold with Aristotelian metaphysics without question, else he wouldn't have been a Christian.

And if you look at the sources he draws from, the two most mentioned are Denys the Areopagite and Augustine, who were both Platonists (although both knew Aristotle).

Thomas
 
I suppose my big question is ...

If nature, or natures, are inherently divine — that is, if deity is a quality of a nature, how than does that nature not experience and know itself accordingly, as omniscient, omnipotent, self-subsisting, and so on?

Thomas
 
Hi Tao —

When I said 'because the universe shows signs of its own inhering rationality', I mean there are indications of natural laws and an order to things ... otherwise how could we theorise about anything? All would be choas and anarchy.
Unfortunately for theists what order, and I use the word accepting it is only fractionally comprehensive, we do perceive requires no creator, is highly anthropocentric and bares no relationship to what any of the ancient theists, on whose testimony modern doctrines are based, ever purported to have been told by their voices of god. To stay away from our standard of contention and invoke the claims of Islam, for example, as so often seen on these pages we see absolutely banal, idiotic effort to reverse engineer the words of some long dead arab to encompass everything from genetics to quantum mechanics. It is absurd to say the least. To return to our normal crown of thorns, the CC, it spends vast sums on trying to fit the science to its doctrine. As you well know. The are Catholic Priests and Monks working in Vatican funded research projects in just about every field of the scientific endeavour. Such vast sums of money to prevent being so wrong-footed as they were made to feel during The Enlightenment. Unfortunately money does buy the right to dominate information, including history, and the truth we learned are being fast forgotten.
Theists theorise the existence of a deity ... atheists theorise otherwise.
I would class my own enquiry as having a strong interest in theology, I am part theologian too. I am more interested in understanding the effect belief in deity has on us as a species though, the origins of, the how, the why and the politics that drives it. I long ago realised if there is anything real then out of the billions of people who ever claimed their belief confirmed at least one could prove it. There are enough people caught up in the belief trap for whatever reasons, I just choose to look at it critically.
And if we really know as little about the world in which we live as you suggest, then we certainly don't know enough to say there isn't a deity, surely?
Lol! How weak is that ?

Wow, you know a lot more about black holes than me.
The decorum required here spares you the most lewd and lascivious jokes..... but you have imagination.... :D:cool:


Well, It's just a belief. It's a theory. It's a hope that there is some point to all of this, and it's not all just for nothing, and has no purpose. Like Thomas says. If we don't know enough to say that there is a God, we certainly don't know enough to say there isn't. It's all down to choice of belief. I choose to believe in a God, a universe with purpose, even if I have no clue about that God, or the purpose of this universe. Even if it looks like complete chaos, I just choose to believe that it only looks that way because we don't know anything about it. I choose to believe that there is something more than this life, and this limited knowledge. And you choose the opposite route. You choose to believe in what you can see and prove. Which is fine. It's all choice. And everyone comes at that choice from a different angle.
Different horses for different courses....so the saying goes. You believe because you want to believe. I think that just about the only credible reason to believe there is. So congratulations!!

I suppose my big question is ...

If nature, or natures, are inherently divine — that is, if deity is a quality of a nature, how than does that nature not experience and know itself accordingly, as omniscient, omnipotent, self-subsisting, and so on?

Thomas
By thinking outside an anthropocentric box. Just look at the pure unfiltered information. As best you can. If there is a deity you really think it is so human that these are even concepts to it? If the multiverse is a deity you think we are its braincells or something? Does the bacteria under my armpit worship me? Should I demand that it does? Shall I asign just one of them a few words to convince them all to be nice little bacteria, stop competing for a fare share and pay taxes to my appointed subject and its chosen brethren? No? So why would such an enormous deity expect the same of us? Belief as is practised here on this wee blue planet is a money and control scam.....nothing more. It taps into a prehistoric part of our psyche that craves a pattern to cling to in the chaos of existence. It exploits it ruthlessly. And gives dissonant solace to the multitudes. I do not know if there is or is not a deity of such scale our universe is contained within what it created. And I cannot know. And even if I did know there was it would change nothing. So if the universe is god it does not matter. It is irrelevant except as a pretty far out curiosity that only begs more questions. Like what made god.
 
Aw, shucks - Tao, you're really a Panentheist. :)
lol....more a Pandemoniumist shoorly!!
[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zk7SZYdAL_U&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zk7SZYdAL_U&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

Forgot how good this track is!!
 
Back
Top