Hell=Violence; Karma=Non-Violence

[17th Angel]

Karma does not always work as simple as stated as many good people have bad happen to them and many bad people have good happen to them like the criminal who is incredibly lucky and gets away time after time.

And the football chant of the day is;

What, a bunch, of bollocks!


*sighes* like tits on a bull.

 

[immortalitylost]

I wouldn't call it punishment because that word sounds similar to hell. The point of karma is - Do good and good will happen to you, do bad and bad will happen. Maybe not to you but in general.

So you don't think that doing bad, and accumulating bad karma, and the result of being shuffled down a level in your next reincarnation could be seen by some as punishment?

If you do bad things in school, and are threatened with being held back a grade, but you continue, and therefore are held back, you would not consider that capable of being under the interpretation of a punishment?

I would.

I understand that you are trying to teach people not to do bad things with karma, because it results in bad things for them in this life and the next, but it's not all teaching. There is still the punishment if the lesson is ignored. There is still the result of the bad karma, and the teaching is just explaining the result should the bad behavior continue. And that is what I would consider a form of punishment. That's all I'm trying to point out.

 

[Ramaraksha]

So you don't think that doing bad, and accumulating bad karma, and the result of being shuffled down a level in your next reincarnation could be seen by some as punishment?

If you do bad things in school, and are threatened with being held back a grade, but you continue, and therefore are held back, you would not consider that capable of being under the interpretation of a punishment?

I would.

I understand that you are trying to teach people not to do bad things with karma, because it results in bad things for them in this life and the next, but it's not all teaching. There is still the punishment if the lesson is ignored. There is still the result of the bad karma, and the teaching is just explaining the result should the bad behavior continue. And that is what I would consider a form of punishment. That's all I'm trying to point out.

Well you have to understand what we are talking about. These are systems created to give an order to life. One can sit in a math class and say math is just numbers, it's not poetry. Well, it's not supposed to be poetry.

I am going to make the atheist happy and say God is an invention of man. Someone to look and watch over us sounds nice, especially for early man who found living quite scary. Therefore early man came up with concepts for God. It is not surprising that in some native american cultures, God was like them, riding a horse etc. Similar concepts originated in other culturess. Abrahamic religions chose their King as a template for God, we chose a Teacher.

To me the concept of Abrahamic views on God, with hell for non-followers can be comapared to Communism or Dictatorship, and the Hindu concept of Karma & Rebirth to Democracy. One can say that they are both governing systems, or one can say that they are completely different.

When you talk about being shuffled down being a sort of punishment, the difference between the two systems is what a person can do about it. For example you are driving a car and you think you may have hit something. If you are a christian, you can continue on your way, assuming that God will forgive you. To a Hindu, there is no forgiveness - you made a mistake, you have to set things right, whether in this life or the next.

Another difference is that this system applies to all, whether you are a Hindu or an Atheist. But the Abrahamic God's generosity is limited to members of his club only. A Gandhi is thrown into hell! The muslim God throws Mother Teresa into hell. This makes a mockery of living life on the straight and narrow path. If christians are wrong, leading a life helping others will get them hell, whereas a terrorist, properly chastized, waltzes into heaven? That's not right.

 

[shawn]

Ramaraksha:
Another difference is that this system applies to all, whether you are a Hindu or an Atheist. But the Abrahamic God's generosity is limited to members of his club only. A Gandhi is thrown into hell! The muslim God throws Mother Teresa into hell. This makes a mockery of living life on the straight and narrow path. If christians are wrong, leading a life helping others will get them hell, whereas a terrorist, properly chastized, waltzes into heaven? That's not right.

Which is good cause to make people think about these doctrines and how they came to be in the first place....who made them and what was their agenda?
Carrot and stick is a very old ideology and the religions came along and really refined them. Millions of gullible people have been netted by these garbage ideas for thousands of years. very shameful.

 

[immortalitylost]

I'm not trying to say that punishment of bad karma and rebirth lower and punishment of hell are the same though. Not at all.

I'm just trying to say that both are punishment. Completely different kinds of punishment, and for different offenses, but both a kind of punishment nonetheless.

That's all.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Hmmm, just that word, punishment does not sound right. Think of it this way, we no longer call people retarded, we call them learning-disabled. You may say both are the same thing, yet they are not.

Again may I say that Hinduism/Buddhism are teacher religions. A teacher derives no pleasure in simply punishing her students. When I was kid, I came face to face with one of these "teachers". It was a math problem, and try as he might, he could not reach the class. Then suddenly he snapped, maybe he had some trouble at home or something. He took his cane and all of us kids received a lashing across our backs. Well, did that make me a better student? Not at all.

This is where the concept of Karma and Rebirth differ from the concept of Hell. The situation that I have described above is the concept of hell, where physical punishment is meted out as some sort of lesson.

The sad reality is the most nations around the world can be rich and happy. There is a small nation in Africa, which recently found oil, yet because it is ruled by a strongman, the people remain poor. Or take a look at North Korea and contrast that with South Korea.

As I posted before, some european nations run trains on the honor system. An individual can get away with cheating the system, but the majority have figured out that playing by the rules benefits one and all. And cheating the system results in bad consequences. You understand that this is about realizing how being good is ultimately a benefit to all, it's not about scaring people with dire consequences.

What was the old saying - you can catch more flies with honey than with.... I forget the rest, but you get the idea. Karma & Rebirth is about honey.

I don't believe that we get punished by being born in a lower strata or something similar. Each life gives us a chance to sit once more in God's classrom. I don't believe that we are superior to animals. Only by being born as a Dog will we learn how to love unconditionally.

In some classes we pay attention and learn something and in some others we may not. So the student who does not learn is held back, but eventually even he graduates.

 

[immortalitylost]

Ok, I get what your sayin.

Coincidently, I call people retarded, lol, just not the people the word was origionally used for.

Like, I say it as a playful insult, and I think it's fine that way. I'm so not PC enough to start rearranging my vocabulary for all the sensitive folk out there. Hehe, they're just words. They're sounds with meaning assigned. I just make the sounds, it's all those other folks that apply meaning.

But I digress. Suffice it to say, I understand where your coming from. Lovely chatting and all that, lol.

Ta.

 

[sunyatasamsara]

To me hell is a metaphor for living in anger and similar emotions and being controlled by them. I feel like a dick cuz I laugh when people are angry cuz there is no reason for it. I think anger comes from tying to control your little world. I think karma is just a fancy mystical way of saying law of cause and effect. Example if you are a soldier and kill people you might get killed. Basically what ever you do can and will come back to you.