Paul and other Christians didn't believe heaven was up?

[Ahanu]

As if this one is not new: I'm confused.

Did Paul and the early christians believe heaven is up?

Thomas said:

More to the point, it's not what Paul, according to Catholic and Orthodox doctrine, is claiming.

Paul is talking about the perfection of the Divine Image in the Physical World, or rather his doctrine (according to their interpretation) is not that we leave this world, but that the veils that stand between this world and the world of the Spirit are drawn aside, and all is one, all in all.

Why does Paul use the words "caught up?"

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2).

Paul continues to say that it could of been "in the body" or "out of the body."

"The Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a cry of commmand, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thess 4: 16-17).

Of course, many early christians held that the flesh was literally taken up. This is what Justin Martyr has to say:

And when He [Jesus] had thus shown them that there is truly a resurrection of the flesh, wishing to show them this also, that it is not impossible for flesh to ascend into heaven (as He had said that our dwelling-place is in heaven), He was taken up into heaven while they beheld, Acts 1:9 as He was in the flesh. If, therefore, after all that has been said, any one demand demonstration of the resurrection, he is in no respect different from the Sadducees, since the resurrection of the flesh is the power of God, and, being above all reasoning, is established by faith, and seen in works.

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Resurrection (Justin Martyr)

"They were looking intently into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 'Men of Galilee,' they said, 'why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1: 10-11).

If heaven is not up, why is this even written in the New Testament the way that it is?

Of course, the catholic encyclopedia also reads:

The language used by the Evangelists to describe the Ascension must be interpreted according to usage. To say that He was taken up or that He ascended, does not necessarily imply that they locate heaven directly above the earth; no more than the words "sitteth on the right hand of God" mean that this is His actual posture. In disappearing from their view "He was raised up and a cloud received Him out of their sight" (Acts 1:9), and entering into glory He dwells with the Father in the honour and power denoted by the scripture phrase.

Yeah, but the orthodox view is that Jesus is in the flesh "taken up" somewhere, as has been demonstrated by the quote from Justin. Maybe directly above the earth. Maybe directly above the stars. I'm reading Thomas to say there is no "caught up" of the flesh.

 

[wil]

Hell down, Heaven up.... two waters one of earth and one of heaven....

All explanations trying to satisfy the questions...

However Jesus referenced in our midst..

 

[Ahanu]

However Jesus referenced in our midst..

lol. Jesus is in heaven physically. You have to be "caught up" to be in the "midst" of Jesus.

 

[dauer]

Somewhat related, but are there any early Christian references to descending as opposed to ascending? The reason I ask is because of the language of merkava mysticism.

 

[wil]

Namaste Dauer,

I was about to say there was....but lol the early Christian reference I was thinking about was Jewish!! 'Jacob's ladder' but even in that vision he refered to the angels going UP (first) and then the ones coming down the staircase.

 

[Ahanu]

Somewhat related, but are there any early Christian references to descending as opposed to ascending? The reason I ask is because of the language of merkava mysticism.

New Jerusalem and fire descends without ascending in the New Testament. That is all I can think of right now. The dove and Wisdom descend first and ascend later.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

ascending or descending is all psychological and helps us understand the spiritual and glorification. if you think about it, just materializing like star trek is also a possibility since the spiritual world exists in another dimension with different rules, it just wouldnt have the same impact.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Ahanu —

Did Paul and the early christians believe heaven is up?

It's a matter of symbolism, rather than a direction. As heaven is not a location in the time/space continuum, it doesn't lie in any 'direction' with regard to where one is located ...

... the language is symbolic, one that has largely fallen into disuse and has become occluded in modern thought.

Thomas

 

[Quahom1]

Somewhat related, but are there any early Christian references to descending as opposed to ascending? The reason I ask is because of the language of merkava mysticism.

Jacob's ladder...

 

[17th Angel]

Everytime the shooter gets too close, we got to shift the posts..... So it doesn't become any more obvious than already is.