Knights of Liberty

[Avi]

Listen, if we are doing volunteer work in a questionable neighborhood, and something 'bad' happens, we're not gonna abandon those helping us, leaving them there to fend for themselves. Not that it will ever happen, but it could ...
GK

Listen James, what do you mean by a "questionable neighborhood" ? I don't think I like the sound of that, are you stereotyping ? And what do you mean "if something bad happens" ? Do you mean if one of your members commits a crime ? If that should happen, the ethical act is the turn that member in to the authorities. Are you thinking about covering up their crime out of a misguided loyalty ?

I am also concerned about your use of the word "Knights". Is this a gender neutral term ? Remember, we are feminists in this forum .

Third, what is the difference between this club and the Knights of Columbus ?

I do not think you have thought this out too well, here, James. Until I brought it to your attention, you did not even know there was already a club of high schoolers with this name on Facebook ! And it is not clear what your goals are. They are vague and wishy washy (weasel words). Is this some sort of vigilante organization, like the Guardian Angels ? At least they know what they are trying to accomplish.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Listen James.....

Questionable would imply a neighborhood where criminal activities are somewhat common place. I'm speaking of possible food drives and things of that nature. No one participating in the food drive would be committing any criminal activities, lol.

Funny, the person who came up with "knight" is actually a lady. I have no idea what the difference is - I know nothing of the Knights of Columbus.

The goal is to help make a positive difference in the lives of others, Avi. I thought that was clear. It doesn't matter if there is another group with a similar name, or if there are other organizations that do the same (The more the better).

A couple friends and I have taken the first step - reaching out to like minded individuals whom are willing to participate and get involved. Again, we are in the beginning stages - The group isn't even open to public yet, so yes there is much left to work out.

No, this is not a vigilante organization, lol. Quite different actually - As a Christian "I" am personally called to love my neighbors. What good is love if it is not acted upon? This is NOT a religious organization, however. This will be a peoples effort, each of us putting away our differences for the greater good.


GK

 

[iBrian]

Very cool, Brian ... What do you have in mind exactly. I appreciate your support!! I still want to start a group on face book, but I will link (With your permission) this forum from that group once we get some details worked out. I think we could do more good from here than there actually.

Thanks again,

James

Sure you can link both, and let me know how I can help.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Some people are cynics by nature (Understandably so) but my question is what good is a cynic without a better plan?

I understand legitimate concerns. I understand wanting to know more about what we are attempting to put together, and I appreciate the valid questions and concerns each of you have presented. What I don't understand, nor appreciate is being talked down to.

I am reaching out to others in hope that we can join together to make a positive difference in the lives of others - Surely this is a worth while goal. If you happen to not be interested, that is perfectly fine – I understand completely. Not everyone has the time, or heart for this.

As I stated previously, we need several people of character to help lead this effort, and help this group get off its feet. If you are compassionate, having a genuine care and concern for the well being of others, and can be loyal to the cause, then you pretty much fit the bill.

I think we need to put our heads together and share our ideas, and suggestions and then hammer out he details of how we are going to move this forward. I'm not a leader myself, but I am determined to do all I can to make this work. With your help, we can and will make this happen.

I know many want to sit back and just wait for something better. I know that many will simply leave it up to others to help those in need. I myself think it is time that we realize that nothing will ever change if we ourselves are not willing to help make the change we desire to see.

It isn't necessary that the group is called “Knights of Liberty” – That is just one suggestion. It doesn't matter if we utilize facebook, myspace, twitter, this forum, youtube, or a website, so long as we can reach others like minded who are able to help. It doesn't matter who organizes this group, so long as they truly care, and will be loyal to the cause.

What I think matters most is that we start making an effort to change our world. There is very little that one man/woman can do alone, but collectively we can make a real difference in the lives of others and on a much larger scale. The possibilities are great - We simply need to be willing to help. Together we can decide on the best strategies to utilize and then (In time) organize our collective efforts.

I sincerely appreciate all who have been supportive thus far. Your support and interest gives me hope. Together we can help to change our world – One person at a time.


James

 

[Gatekeeper]

Sure you can link both, and let me know how I can help.

Thank you, Brian. I'll link this forum from a couple different groups I post on. If you don't mind, I'll pm you soon with some questions, and ideas, o.k?

Thanks again,

James

 

[DrumR]

Thank you for the favor of a reply Gatekeeper.

Despite doing harm to your reputation, how would you re-order the list? I do think the list needs expansion, and some clarification, so what do you suggest? I mean, what are your ideas exactly. Could you perhaps show an example of how you would re-order and expand? Thanks

It is but a matter of grouping similar concepts together and with that integration providing such limits or bounds as may be required for the evaluation of the expression.

One example of similarities follow:
# To exhibit self control.
# To avoid deception.
# To always maintain one's principles.
# To never betray a confidence or comrade.

This above ordering, or sub-set, could be seen as being inter-related and further may be redefined as:
Self discipline,
seeing clearly,
being true to one's self,
living up to the fullness of those responsibilities and trusts one has accepted.

Many might then agree that adhering to the above group would constitute, in the main, those considerations needed to be viewed as a person of "honor."

As to the bounds that provide expansion of the individual concepts or "rules" it is a matter of clarification as to that which is and that which is not - limits; an example being provided below.

# To combat evil in all of its monstrous forms:
As large and complex as a problem may appear to be, there are to be found within them other problems, that are small in nature in and of themselves, waiting to be solved. Evil, however monstrous and large, is similarly made up of smaller evils. Should we then overlook the multitude of mole-hills that make up the mountain?

I do think the list needs expansion, and some clarification

One of the difficulties is that while one may understand the fullness and limitations of that set of rules one would have others adopt, it is the connotations of others concerning those un-defined principals that may lead to grave mis-understandings due to the want of some small amount of clarification. I would highly suggest that one expend the effort to expand upon each and every one of those "rules," thus far presented, so as to reduce ambiguity as a first step.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Thank you for the favor of a reply Gatekeeper.


It is but a matter of grouping similar concepts together and with that integration providing such limits or bounds as may be required for the evaluation of the expression.

One example of similarities follow:
# To exhibit self control.
# To avoid deception.
# To always maintain one's principles.
# To never betray a confidence or comrade.

This above ordering, or sub-set, could be seen as being inter-related and further may be redefined as:
Self discipline,
seeing clearly,
being true to one's self,
living up to the fullness of those responsibilities and trusts one has accepted.

Many might then agree that adhering to the above group would constitute, in the main, those considerations needed to be viewed as a person of "honor."

As to the bounds that provide expansion of the individual concepts or "rules" it is a matter of clarification as to that which is and that which is not - limits; an example being provided below.

# To combat evil in all of its monstrous forms:
As large and complex as a problem may appear to be, there are to be found within them other problems, that are small in nature in and of themselves, waiting to be solved. Evil, however monstrous and large, is similarly made up of smaller evils. Should we then overlook the multitude of mole-hills that make up the mountain?



One of the difficulties is that while one may understand the fullness and limitations of that set of rules one would have others adopt, it is the connotations of others concerning those un-defined principals that may lead to grave mis-understandings due to the want of some small amount of clarification. I would highly suggest that one expend the effort to expand upon each and every one of those "rules," thus far presented, so as to reduce ambiguity as a first step.

Thanks, Drumr ... I'll work on the list and try to clarify what I myself understand them to mean. I think I'll probably reword the whole combat evil, too. I'd love for you to continue with the suggestions once I clarify and expand a bit.

Again, thanks for the help

GK

 

[Gatekeeper]

So ... I revised the "list" let me know if it seems more reasonable.

(Code of Honor)


1) To be honorable and trustworthy.

(Live for freedom, justice, equality, and that which is right - Exhibit self discipline by avoiding deceit and by maintaining one's principles. Never abandon this noble cause, and never betray one's friendships; keep one's word of honor).


2) To be courageous and compassionate.

(Combat evil with determination, goodness and love for the inflicted; help the weak and innocent when opportunity presents itself).

 

[TRiG]

Respect authority ? Better yet, question authority !

And if authority answers, will you listen?

I'd put it this way: don't rebel without good reason. Laws, even silly ones, promote the smooth functioning of society. By all means break them if they are tyrannical, but don't break laws just for the sake of breaking them. That's the action of a stroppy teenager.

Similarly, be respectful to everyone who deserves respect (this includes authority); and, if you don't know whether someone deserves respect, assume they do (so respect authority until it becomes a tyranny).

It's a practical mode of action, anyway. It allows us to focus our efforts on things that actually need to be fought, and not to get sidetracked on the petty.

TRiG.

 

[Avi]

And if authority answers, will you listen?

It depends whether they know what they are talking about.

By the way Trig, are you one of James "people" ?

I'd put it this way: don't rebel without good reason. Laws, even silly ones, promote the smooth functioning of society. By all means break them if they are tyrannical, but don't break laws just for the sake of breaking them. That's the action of a stroppy teenager.

Laws are only part of the picture, ethical and moral decisions are at least as important, perhaps more important than the laws. And we deal with authorities of many different kinds.

Similarly, be respectful to everyone who deserves respect (this includes authority); and, if you don't know whether someone deserves respect, assume they do (so respect authority until it becomes a tyranny).

I agree.

It's a practical mode of action, anyway. It allows us to focus our efforts on things that actually need to be fought, and not to get sidetracked on the petty.

TRiG.

I agree again.

Perhaps I have been a bit rude to James, and I apologize for that. I think in his mind he is trying to do something good. I just got a little frustrated because I think he is approaching it naively, and I gave a few examples to demonstate that. I was going to write another post critical of some more of his naive ideas. But I decided not to do that.

If his goals are as he says, to help people that need his help, I respect his efforts and wish him good luck.

 

[Gatekeeper]

I think in his mind he is trying to do something good. I just got a little frustrated because I think he is approaching it naively, and I gave a few examples to demonstate that. I was going to write another post critical of some more of his naive ideas. But I decided not to do that.

You just did

Rude? Lets see ... Thus far you have more or less accused me of stereotyping, being a high school student, not thinking this through, and now being naive (Among other things).

If you have a better plan then lets hear it. If not, then please quit belittling me and my efforts to do something positive in the world, o.k? I'd appreciate it....

If you think the ideas are naive, point out what you think to be naive and we'll discuss them. I think I deserve that courtesy being that you haven't offered anything but criticism thus far. Frustrated? Perhaps you could save us some time by contributing something positive, then. Hell, we might discover a better method by which to accomplish the goal at hand (Seriously).

Lets talk about the naivety of:

1) Love

2) Care

3) Concern

4) Action

5) Compassion

6) Loyalty

7) Honor

8) Courage

9) Enlisting the help of those with the above attributes, whom are willing to take action.

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" I'm simply taking the first step by reaching out to those like minded.

I don't want to be one who just gives in and gives up at the first sign of resistance. I want to be one who goes the distance, and actually helps to change the lives of others. I don't want to be like the many millions who leave it up to 'someone else'.

 

[Avi]

James - I was trying to apologize and leave this thread quietly, but you obviously want to continue this discussion, so I will try one last time.

What I am saying is that your OP and your others on this thread are naive. That does not mean you are a bad person, just naive. I gave you a variety of examples of how your approach is too simplistic and in some cases wrong.

The reason I thought you were a high school student is because your approach is sophomoric. DrumR has done more to make your argument for you than you have done yourself. Perhaps you should make him your leader and all follow him. DrumR can articulate a clear vision.

Bringing your friend Tigger here is not going to win the argument either. It is another weak example of blind reliance on comradeship. But it proves again that it is ideas that win the case not blind loyalty. Two weak arguments are no stronger than one.

Also, I am not going to try to build your case for you. If you are unable to do it, just pack it in and go back to the drawing board. Come back when you have some new ideas.

Finally, if you cannot take some criticism when you claim that your goal is to create a better world, you might as well pack it in right now. It takes guts and wisdom to create a better world, not loud hornblowing.

 

[DrumR]

Greetiings Gatekeeper.

Be not discouraged (I think I heard that on the radio once)

I most sinfully apologize if I have said anything to uplift you for it would be ruinous to the evil reputation that I am trying to develop should word of this get out.

 

[Avi]

Greetiings Gatekeeper.
Be not discouraged (I think I heard that on the radio once)

Spoken as the intellectual leader of this movement, DrumR

One of the problems with the internet is it is so easy to connect with a group, that some believe they can solve all their problems by simply asking for help on the internet.

If James really wants to help people in need I suggest he go out as an individual and help some of these people first. Then in the future he might have some ideas of his own about how he can lead a group of cyber-comrades to do that, and he will be able to articulate his vision of how to do it.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Why you want to make this about me I don't know

James - I was trying to apologize and leave this thread quietly, but you obviously want to continue this discussion, so I will try one last time.

You apologized to TRiG - it was not directed to me, and in the same paragraph you call me and my ideas naive, and offered no explanation. That was not much of an apology. I sincerely doubt that was your aim anyway. Which is perfectly fine, I never asked for one. I can certainly take (Hell, I welcome) well structured, and helpful criticism like Drumr gave, but you have done nothing more than insult me personally.

What I am saying is that your OP and your others on this thread are naive. That does not mean you are a bad person, just naive. I gave you a variety of examples of how your approach is too simplistic and in some cases wrong.

The approach was to find others who would be interested in helping make change in the lives of others. I made it quite clear that I was looking for leaders to help out. I'm simply taking the first step by reaching out to those like minded, who would be willing to help lead such an effort. You disagree with my outreach, which is fine. You are more than welcome to disagree with anything you like.

The reason I thought you were a high school student is because your approach is sophomoric. DrumR has done more to make your argument for you than you have done yourself. Perhaps you should make him your leader and all follow him. DrumR can articulate a clear vision.

I'm not making an argument at all, I'm simply asking for help. The idea is to simply create a group of individuals who want to help others. The fun part will start once we put our heads together, and decide the best methods on how to do accomplish this goal. I can't do it by myself - Two minds are better than one, and so on ...

Bringing your friend Tigger here is not going to win the argument either. It is another weak example of blind reliance on comradeship. But it proves again that it is ideas that win the case not blind loyalty. Two weak arguments are no stronger than one.

I told Brian I would link this forum so others can come and discuss this idea - You assume too much. TRiG came here by clicking the link I provided on another group. Btw, this isn't about me, nor should it be -

It's about helping our fellow man to the best of our ability. I can take a little heat from the likes of you. Believe me, I've dealt with worse. Then again, this shouldn't be about you either, should it?

Also, I am not going to try to build your case for you. If you are unable to do it, just pack it in and go back to the drawing board. Come back when you have some new ideas.

You're not willing to help. I understand ....

Finally, if you cannot take some criticism when you claim that your goal is to create a better world, you might as well pack it in right now. It takes guts and wisdom to create a better world, not loud hornblowing.

Horn blowing? I came here asking for a little help in attempt to do something good for our world. The criticism you gave was in form of insult, so no ... It didn't set well with me. I suspect it wouldn't have set well with you either.

Of course we never find fault in ourselves - It's always someone else who is in the wrong, right? I'm not going to insult you, nor do I care how you view me, or how naive you view my efforts and ideas to be. But I will say this - You seem to have nothing more than hot air to offer.

Take care,


James

 

[DrumR]

Spoken as the intellectual leader of this movement, DrumR

There you go again, Avi, despoiling my evil reputation. What's a fellow got to do around here to get a bad name anyway??

Besides, I do not claim ownership of this movement intellectual or otherwise. In this wise should it fail the onus of blame does not fall on me (I told you I was evil, didn't I).

One of the problems with the internet is it is so easy to connect with a group, that some believe they can solve all their problems by simply asking for help on the internet.

To be able to search for solutions is different than actively seeking solutions, yet both may be seen as an advantage of the internet, Avi. It is also unfortunate "in this day and age" that students are taught where to find the information rather than making the information theirs on a personal level when they may end up in a location that those resources are not readily available. Is it any wonder then that so many use this resource?

If James really wants to help people in need I suggest he go out as an individual and help some of these people first. Then in the future he might have some ideas of his own about how he can lead a group of cyber-comrades to do that, and he will be able to articulate his vision of how to do it.

Gatekeeper may indeed be doing just that, we do not necessarily know with any certainty that this is not so. Thus it would be considered more the appropriate thing to do, IMHO, to give him, and others like him who may come our way, the benefit of the doubt until proved otherwise. Yet should one be left adrift of one's society and be placed into the position of learning "from a scratch" and without guidance? If so, should we not then extend this philosophy to include infants and then throw them to the wolves to see if they would survive unprepared on their own?

To deny one interested in learning some small assistance is not the credo I was trained in nor is it the manner in which I conduct myself. I choose to assist others and to learn from and with the aid of others. To do less would be to dishonour my teachers and their teachers through the generations before them.

I beg your Pardon should I be reading into your words an inference that is not there but at least one may judge from my responce that there exists a weak spot or chink in my armour concerning the denial of the propagation of knowledge.

All of this is much too much seriousness for one day. I think,... no wait, that can be dangerous.

 

[Avi]

Re: Why you want to make this about me I don't know

But I will say this - You seem to have nothing more than hot air to offer.

James, I offer you this challenge my honorable, fine Knight. Tell us some of the service activities that you have been involved in which you suggest that we likewise part take in ?

Also, are you suggesting that you will play a leadership role in this club, or that Brian or DrumR provide the leadership ? If you are involved, can you please tell us the leadership skills which you bring ?

Also, if you are going to start a club, I suggest you need 3 things. A name, you cannot steal a club name from a bunch of high schoolers. A mission, you cannot just take some platitudes from the middle ages and hope that everyone latches on. And a vision. What unique perspective you bring. After you have done one or more of these there will be something to discuss further.

And finally, you need to bring some sensitivity to the table. Referring to poor neighborhoods as "questionable" shows some underlaying biases which we might explore further. Also, your club name, shield and code of honour have some sexist connotations to them. I also do not agree with your views about authority and loyalty. I suggest you re-visit these issues and report back.

 

[wil]

Here lies the issue to me. If an organization is created to take the high road, it must take the high road. And relish the opportunity to overcome, rise above whatever challenge comes by. I guess that is also the reason I have issues of signing on. I'm trying to be the change by not being into the fight...(regularly failing miserably)

 

[Gatekeeper]

Re: Why you want to make this about me I don't know

James, I offer you this challenge my honorable, fine Knight. Tell us some of the service activities that you have been involved in which you suggest that we likewise part take in ?

There isn't much that I have done or have been able to do in my community, and that is exactly what I want to change. Soup kitchens, volunteer photography (Cub Scouts & Weddings), donating toys and cloths to the salvation Army and Goodwill foundations is about the scope of my service activities. Unless of course you count my support, and ministering, and ongoing encouragement/friendship to those struggling with poverty & drug addiction, whom live in those “questionable” neighborhoods.

Also, are you suggesting that you will play a leadership role in this club, or that Brian or DrumR provide the leadership ? If you are involved, can you please tell us the leadership skills which you bring ?

Of course I would, but it doesn't look like DrumR or Brian will be involved until we have already developed a council of leaders and have gotten this group off its feet. I've already spoken to Brian, and declined using his forum until we get better organized. Otherwise, people like you would rip apart the efforts as displayed in this thread. (If anyone is still interested after this quite humiliating bludgeoning I took by Avi, just pm me).

The leadership (In the beginning) will more than likely consist of about 12 council members, all of which will have equal authority, and voice. All decisions will be voted on by the council. The council will be responsible for making the big decisions and will take suggestions from our regular members.

Not everyone who has shown interest thus far wants to serve on the council, however – Most the seats are still available. Of course the council will be subject to change as we get more involved, depending on qualifications of those interested.

Also, if you are going to start a club, I suggest you need 3 things. A name, you cannot steal a club name from a bunch of high schoolers. A mission, you cannot just take some platitudes from the middle ages and hope that everyone latches on. And a vision. What unique perspective you bring. After you have done one or more of these there will be something to discuss further.

Actually the mission statement was the opening text of the OP. The list is simply a code by which we encourage our members to live by, and it has already been revised so that it is more reasonable. The name was not “stolen”. Even so, the name can certainly be changed to something else. In the end, you can't please everyone, so we will make a decision on our name as a group later.

And finally, you need to bring some sensitivity to the table. Referring to poor neighborhoods as "questionable" shows some underlaying biases which we might explore further. Also, your club name, shield and code of honour have some sexist connotations to them. I also do not agree with your views about authority and loyalty. I suggest you re-visit these issues and report back.

Are you suggesting that criminal activities are common place in all “poor” neighborhoods? The type of neighborhoods I am speaking of, I have gone to often and have ministered, encouraged, and and have shown ongoing support to many of the resident there. They certainly know that their neighborhoods are questionable because of the crime. Yes, I am biased against crime. I'm not one to sugar coat the reality behind such places.

I didn't come here to argue … but when you put me in a corner and slap me around like you did I'm going to react. I apologize if I offended you in any way, but you were wrong to do so. You have an obvious problem with loyalty/trustworthiness, so I don't expect you will ever be on board. I made my case for loyalty and what I thought it entailed. You still disagree, no worries... There are others whom value loyalty as a desired characteristic.

GK

 

[Avi]

Re: Why you want to make this about me I don't know

There isn't much that I have done or have been able to do in my community, and that is exactly what I want to change. Soup kitchens, volunteer photography (Cub Scouts & Weddings), donating toys and cloths to the salvation Army and Goodwill foundations is about the scope of my service activities. Unless of course you count my support, and ministering, and ongoing encouragement/friendship to those struggling with poverty & drug addiction, whom live in those “questionable” neighborhoods.

Good response James. This is the best idea that you have put forward so far. I think you should include these ideas in you organizational description. It makes your organization seem more "real".

Of course I would, but it doesn't look like DrumR or Brian will be involved until we have already developed a council of leaders and have gotten this group off its feet. I've already spoken to Brian, and declined using his forum until we get better organized. Otherwise, people like you would rip apart the efforts as displayed in this thread. (If anyone is still interested after this quite humiliating bludgeoning I took by Avi, just pm me).

Alright James, now you have made me feel suitably guility .
I did not mean to humiliate or bludgeon you and I apologized several posts ago for my sarcasm. After all, you were arguing at every step with me and many of your responses are reasonable ones.

You may not have noticed, but I posted two threads in the last couple of weeks related to leadership. And I have been studying some of the classic texts related to leadership. So when I saw your thread, I thought it would be interesting to explore this part of your nature. I did not mean to do this in a judgmental way, but I can see why you interpreted my comments in that way.

I should not have compared your leadership skills to Brian and DrumR, who both have considerable leadership capabilities, that is no reflection on you.

The leadership (In the beginning) will more than likely consist of about 12 council members, all of which will have equal authority, and voice. All decisions will be voted on by the council. The council will be responsible for making the big decisions and will take suggestions from our regular members.

Not everyone who has shown interest thus far wants to serve on the council, however – Most the seats are still available. Of course the council will be subject to change as we get more involved, depending on qualifications of those interested.

I still think you are getting ahead of yourself. I believe you need to focus more on content and less on process at the early stages of the work, which is where you are. In my view, you still have not defined your goals and objectives clearly.

Actually the mission statement was the opening text of the OP. The list is simply a code by which we encourage our members to live by, and it has already been revised so that it is more reasonable. The name was not “stolen”. Even so, the name can certainly be changed to something else. In the end, you can't please everyone, so we will make a decision on our name as a group later.

Ok, my comment about the title being "stolen" was sarcasm, again, but I still feel you have not thought sufficiently about the name of your organization.

Are you suggesting that criminal activities are common place in all “poor” neighborhoods?

No.

The type of neighborhoods I am speaking of, I have gone to often and have ministered, encouraged, and and have shown ongoing support to many of the residents there.

Good for you ! Now those acts have real significance and are probably worthy of further discussion.

They certainly know that their neighborhoods are questionable because of the crime.

What do you mean the neighborhoods are questionable ? I do not think that is what you mean. I think you mean they are dangerous. Why are you using a euphamism, why not just say what you mean ?

Yes, I am biased against crime. I'm not one to sugar coat the reality behind such places.

And I am not suggesting that you do so.

I didn't come here to argue … but when you put me in a corner and slap me around like you did I'm going to react.

Ok, I get your point, I apologize if you feel slapped.

I apologize if I offended you in any way, but you were wrong to do so.

You did not offend me, no worries.

You have an obvious problem with loyalty/trustworthiness,

We have not discussed trustworthiness and I feel that your ideas about loyalty are misguided.

so I don't expect you will ever be on board.

Actually, I am quite interested in service opportunities. But my nature is to question authority and challenge poorly articulated ideas. It is also possible that you will never be on board, because that depends on what it is that we are boarding !!

I made my case for loyalty and what I thought it entailed. You still disagree, no worries... There are others whom value loyalty as a desired characteristic.

I still think your ideas of loyalty need more maturing.

James, you are obviously a good guy and you are trying to do good things. You have support from Brian and DrumR, and that is a pretty good start. Maybe the reason others are reluctant to join up is because you have not articulated a vision. Perhaps you should try to clarify and develop your case to make it stronger.

I know that I have to work on restraint and toning down my sarcasm.