I've become an Evangelical Universalist

[Saltmeister]

Consider this: As a movement initiated by non Jews, the responsibility is not upon the Jews to take care of the members. The members should take care of themselves. But--if it is really a movement initiated by Jews, then there are going to be problems, because now Jews have to take care of non Jews. It is not easy to take care of someone else's kids.

I'm aware of the movement's relative independence, but Judaism does seem like a parent tradition/community to them. Some of them even adopt Jewish practices in their daily lives.

(As usual Netti you are putting a thread back onto its rails.)

I forgot how it started, but I think it was one of the members mentioning their exploration of the idea of being a Noahide. It was Dondi himself if I remember correctly. It sort of grew from there.

The things that Jesus said can never replace Judaism and he denied such himself. Judaism is a covenant. It is OLAM=perpetual.

There's actually a number of things I could have meant by "Jesus replaced Judaism." That's because both Jesus and Judaism can be a number of different things to people in religious terms, and this is perhaps where I would disagree with you when you say, "Judaism is a covenant." If Judaism was only a covenant, my statement would have no validity. But I meant something else other than covenant replacement.

Judaism is more than a covenant. Judaism is a tradition. Judaism is a religion. It is a religion that involves a covenant. You might be oversimplifying it a little too much when you say, "Judaism is a covenant." Having said that, you could now attempt to understand why I said "Jesus replaced Judaism" and try to figure out what I meant by it.

Jesus is not a religion, he is not a covenant, he is not a tradition, so Jesus cannot replace Judaism as a religion, covenant or tradition. There must therefore be something else in common between Jesus and Judaism for Judaism to be replaced by Jesus. What is it? Why did I say what I said?

Judaism had a purpose. Jesus also had a purpose. One thing I'd like you to understand when I say something like, "Jesus replaced Judaism" is that I certainly don't mean Judaism is completely useless. I do find Judaism useful. Judaism continues to be valid today. In fact I believe Judaism may actually help Christianity figure out its own purpose and destiny. But the latter concerns the 21st century, not the first century. Christianity is badly in need of reform and there are a lot of things I see in Judaism that are good enough to help in that reformation.

Let's go back to the first century. If Jesus had any purpose in the first century, it was to seek to fulfill a purpose in which Judaism had failed as a peer-reviewed religious tradition. Jesus, being a Jew, was an individual embodiment as well as being a participant in the peer-reviewed tradition of Judaism. I believe that he did, indeed, try to reform Judaism.

He lived under the authority of Judaism so much as being sufficiently at peace with most of its people. But the premise of Christianity is that Jesus' mission and purpose was greater than that of Judaism. He was not to just merely be a participant in a peer-reviewed tradition. He had a mission direct from God. If Judaism couldn't reform, then something far more radical was necessary.

. . . or at least we could have an entirely new tradition by which to remember him, so that he would not be forgotten, and so that perhaps maybe 2,000 years later, Judaism might benefit from it when it wasn't ready in the first century. Maybe that "radical solution" was a new religion, a heresy in the eyes of Judaism at the time.

This was what I meant by "Jesus replaced Judaism" and hence, "full of grace and truth, the Word became a human being."

But 2,000 years later, it seems more of the reverse. I think this time it's Christianity that needs reform. Christianity has wandered far from the man who inspired it.

It may indeed be a part of the prophecy of the "grafting back" into the tree of Judaism. I don't really mean that Jesus really replaced Judaism. It's more like "Jesus" was what "Judaism" need to become if you understand what I'm saying.

 

[Saltmeister]

Note on thread: a request has been made to moderators to edit this thread and split the discussion, moving the discussion on Noachides into a new thread.

Maybe the moderators can keep this post as an indication that the thread was edited so that people won't be confused?

 

[Dream]

I did not change the thread, Mondo Salt. My thread attention span is actually quite short compared with what it should be, although there are times when I feel a thread has changed so much that the post I was thinking about no longer naturally fits into the discussion! That can be annoying. It is a little like having the gift of perfect pitch but having to practice playing on a hokey saloon piano. I cannot imagine the pain.

"I'm aware of the movement's relative independence, but Judaism does seem like a parent tradition/community to them. Some of them even adopt Jewish practices in their daily lives."

When you feel you need a culture and you find one that you admire, then you feel attracted. I have considered spinning the dreidle before, and someday I might -- especially if I have kids. The attracting culture feels flattered, and there is a sense of responsibility to share. Its the principle of caring for orphans, I think; but it is also always controversial what exactly should be done for orphans. The USA has a similar strange relationship to immigrants. They are not cultural orphans, but there is a similar equation of consideration vs. self preservation. We feel responsible to share our wealth and education, but we also want to preserve ourselves and our identity. The immigrants keep coming though. People need culture and culture needs people. The US has benefited extensively from the influx of immigrants. They have added to our culture, not taken away from it.

 

[shawn]

It may indeed be a part of the prophecy of the "grafting back" into the tree of Judaism. I don't really mean that Jesus really replaced Judaism. It's more like "Jesus" was what "Judaism" need to become if you understand what I'm saying.

Makes sense to me.
His purpose was to get Judaism back on the rails.....so to speak, but they did not listen, so the temple was destroyed and the people were scattered to the 4 corners of the world and have suffered terribly for an age.

So what we have then is a bunch of Abrahamic religions today, all in need of major reform.

 

[bananabrain]

When you think about it, the dhimmi in Islam is very much like Islam's equivalent of a Noahide, that of a secondary adherent outside of the mainstream or primary tradition.

whoa! back up there, salty. the dhimmi in islam is very much a second-class citizen; they have to pay a special tax to be entitled to protection and would be subject to any number of restrictions and disablers to ensure that they were in no doubt about their inferior status. non-jews in islam are in no sense considered second-class; they are simply not subject to the same obligations. they may not be harmed, defrauded or otherwise suffer prejudice against them. a dhimmi's inferior status stems from their refusal to accept "the TRUTH" of islam, whereas a noahide non-jew may accept the truth of judaism, but is not obliged to become jewish. that is a huge difference both in style and purpose.

But Christianity in contrast to Islam and Judaism doesn't have the equivalent of a Noahide of dhimmi.

a dhimmi is an intermediate status between "convert happily" and "die for your recalcitrance", which is the ultimate fulfilment of all evangelical religion, or at least certainly has been - jews experienced christian dhimmitude in the middle ages, when we were a protected minority suffered for our ability to engage in "usury" and moneylending, although the authorities tended to revert back to "convert or die" whenever convenient. islam offered far more protection, albeit at the price of contempt. judaism does nothing of the sort.

My question here would be . . . is it really necessary for God to be reconciled to everybody? Is total reconciliation ideal?

no - G!D Is already Reconciled; it is us that need to make the effort to live properly.

My view on atheists and possibly agnostics if they don't want a relationship with God is that, the notion of justice and punishment should not apply to them for the simple reason that they don't seek a relationship with God.

they can still live properly and thus be considered functionally as if they had sought the relationship; that is why you don't have to be an "official" noahide to be considered a good person.

To make an atheist or agnostic have a relationship with God or to wait for him to do so would in my opinion qualify as a kind of abuse.

exactly.

happen to know the original spelling and pronunciation is 'Noachide,' however 'Noahide' is likely the British transformation.

depends how you pronounce the letter "het" - in the throat or at the back of the mouth. that's lost on ashkenazis though....

The Law of Moses was God teaching the Jews that they need Jesus.. (I know this is going to rile other people up)

yes, because you are talking total bollocks.

I can read through the OT and see Jesus all the way through it.

well, some people can see him in a window, or a slice of pizza and so on. if you fancy slinging some of those texts up, we can debate them. suffice it to say that we have never found such arguments to more than a waste of breath. you believe what you believe - don't worry about not understanding the language that's been used, or its context. i expect you thought frodo in lord of the rings was symbolic of jesus too. deary deary me.

Many false doctrines have come out with taking scriptures out of context.

ain't that the truth?

In Jewish tradition the idea I got from the Rabbi I studied with was that there was a period of time, at most a year (in our subjective time) which a soul may spend in such a spiritual correctional facility and further that when they were sent back into the world they may have an additional sentence of having to live as a creature or a plant or such or have some really bad karma to deal with

as a matter of speculative theology there is no hard and fast doctrine on this, you are entitled to follow whatever reasonable opinion that makes the most sense.

Christianity is not Noach-ide as it does violate the whole idolatry bit.

that isn't actually correct - if christianity were idolatrous it would be forbidden to interact or even do business with a christian. it isn't. some strains of judaism continue to insist that it is, but the halakha gives them the lie. christianity is not noahide because it considers jesus the messiah, when he did / does not meet the halakhic criteria for messiahship.

His purpose was to get Judaism back on the rails.....so to speak, but they did not listen, so the temple was destroyed and the people were scattered to the 4 corners of the world and have suffered terribly for an age.

er.... the person who actually got judaism back on the rails (we agree it was coming off, one manifestation of this being a rise in false messiahs) was rabbi yohanan ben zakkai, who founded the first yeshiva in yavneh and began the process of migrating judaism to a new, non-Temple-dependent model. this, arguably, was a roaring success, as it survives to this day!

So what we have then is a bunch of Abrahamic religions today, all in need of major reform.

arguably, we have been doing this for some time....

What I meant was that many Noahides were anti-Christian, to the point that they demonise and vilify Christianity. Many of these Noahides were either former Christians, or simply shunned Christianity because of things they didn't like about it.

i am interested to hear - were these noahides taught by chabad rabbis?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Dondi]

As promise, FaithfulServant, I feel obligated to respond after the weekend, starting with you post #32.

I believe Gods overall plan is to have a relationship with His creation that they CHOSE to have with Him. Not forced not coerced and not frightened into because of sheer awe. GOD IS LOVE and He wants to share Himself with His adopted children but they have to CHOOSE Him….

For the personal question I believe the word of God and I believe that a parents faith will cover their children and childrens children.. I believe this and it comes down from the Old Testament starting with Noah. Im sure I have family that was not saved but I also trust that Jehovah God is GOOD.. not just an adjective but that is who He is. And I trust that in the end His WILL be done and it will be JUST HOLY RIGHTEOUS AND GOOD. And I will be satisfied with that in Life and in Eternity because He promised that one day there will be no more tears.. That is the Faith He rewarded me with in my long journey have having doubts and asking for wisdom and discernment.

You’ll have to clear this up for me. On one hand you seem to be saying that one must choose Christ, but when it comes to children (and subsequent descendants) they ride in on their parents’ faith? What if you have rebellious children? If you trust God is good, then you must believe that everything will work together for good to those who love God. What of the parents who have prayed and prayed for their children’s salvation, but never seen evidence of it before said children died? Did God not answer their prayers?

Do you think Lucifer and His horde will also be reconciled with God.. ?? According to the bible the heavenly host outnumber all the humans lives that have ever existed and 1/3 of them are fallen. Revelation is very clear to their outcome. They are also His creation and some theologists believe that they existed on this world before us.

That I haven’t come to any conclusion on. I do not know if Christ’s sufficiency includes angelic beings. But all things are possible with God.

But here is a question. If hell was a place prepared for the Devil and His Angels (Matthew 25:41), why are humans put there, also? Wouldn’t it have been just a well to say that everlasting fire is prepared for unrepentant humans?

Paul talks of God sending people strong delusions in 2TH 2:11 I imagine that they might continue to live in that delusion in eternity. That is how I work it out in my head. But I don’t TELL people it as scripture! That’s the danger. We are commanded to do a few things.. Love God and Love our neighbors as we have been loved. Get Baptized because we become a new creation at our re-birth and Spread the Good News of Jesus Christ.. that only through Jesus Christ are we saved… NOT that eventually you will be saved so live in this world today everything will work out in the end.. that is lukewarm teaching that is people-pleasing teaching and Jesus Christ even said that in the end even the very elect will be deceived.

But what I’ve said is by no means people-pleasing. I believe in a drastic hell as dramatic as you can imagine. I can’t imagine just one minute in hell not seeming like an eternity. I’m not looking for easy fixes or loopholes. I’m all for righteous punishment. The danger of hell is just as real. Our behavior, our every sin will affect how we are to be righteously judged. All one is doing when one sins is storing up more and more wrath from the hands of God. All I’m trying to do is investigate how God will be fair in the matter. The way hell is portrayed in evangelistic circles seems neither fair nor merciful.

You are forgetting that theres a judgement to come where God will divide the wheat from the chaff.. The sheep and the goats… I do know the bible tells us that not all are held accountable to the same measure.. I believe you and I are held to a higher standard than say someone who lived in a place that worshipped some pagan god and never knew of Jesus. They will be judged differently… but I do know that we ARE different.. we are His church because we CHOSE.

The sheep and the goats may well be talking about nations, according to Matthew 25:32. Certainly nations will be judged during the Tribulation the kings of the earth are gathered at Armageddon (Rev 19:19), then after the Millennial reign nations are deceived once more by Satan (Rev 20:8), then nations of them that are saved walk by the Light of God and His Lamb (Rev 21:24), and the fruit of the Tree of Life are for the healing of the nations (Rev 22:2).

As far as the wheat and the chaff is concerned, both are part of the same plant. The chaff is the outer covering of the seed (wheat in this case). They way they are separated if both are tossed into the air and the chaff, being lighter, gets blown toward another pile while the wheat, being heavier, falls down into the original pile. Once the two gets separated, the chaff, the unwanted portion, is burned up, while the wheat remains.

I don’t see this any different than the purging process we see in I Corinthians 3:11-15. All the wood, stubble, and hay is burned up while the gold, silver, and precious stones last, while the one going through the process is saved, yet as by fire.

 

[Dream]

Dondi, please stop changing the subject. We are talking about rails right now. Thread rails, Judaism rails, and any other kind of rails would be an acceptable contribution. Can't you please just start your own thread?

 

[Saltmeister]

Can't you please just start your own thread?

Dream are you kidding me?

Are you dreaming? Wake up! Are you seeing birdies and stars flying all over your eyes?

This was the thread!

We just decided that the topic of hell was too boring so we started branching out in other still relevant directions. Kudos to Dondi for keeping us bored.

 

[Dondi]

Dream, Saltmeister,

Believe me, hell will be anything but boring.

 

[Saltmeister]

whoa! back up there, salty. the dhimmi in islam is very much a second-class citizen

I was somewhat aware of that. I was just drawing an analogy.

i expect you thought frodo in lord of the rings was symbolic of jesus too. deary deary me.

Yeah I guess Aslan and Neo are a bit like Christ too. Harry Potter I'm not sure.

christianity is not noahide because it considers jesus the messiah, when he did / does not meet the halakhic criteria for messiahship.

I was not aware of belief in a "past messiah" as something that would disqualify one from being a Noahide. Doesn't that have more to do with Judaism than just plain Noahidism?

A brief look at the Wikipedia page, superficial as it may be, leads me to a Rabbi Jacob Emden who suggested that Jesus and Paul intended to make the early Christians a kind of "Noahide."

er.... the person who actually got judaism back on the rails (we agree it was coming off, one manifestation of this being a rise in false messiahs) was rabbi yohanan ben zakkai, who founded the first yeshiva in yavneh and began the process of migrating judaism to a new, non-Temple-dependent model. this, arguably, was a roaring success, as it survives to this day!

Different people will have different ideas on the "ideal state of a religion," whether it's insiders or outsiders. Christianity's premise was that Judaism's ultimate purpose was justice, but that it got itself pre-occupied with pointless conformity to rules that had little to do with efforts at achieving justice.

Fast forward 2,000 years and we see Christianity regressing to a similar state as first century Judaism, with people obsessing over conformity to pointless rules that aren't conducive to the goal of social justice.

But let's consider the third major tradition: Islam. Islam was supposed to bring Judaism and Christianity back together. Fast forward 1,400 years and we see that it failed. It not only failed to bring unity, it failed to bring justice to the world. Like Judaism and Christianity before it, it too fell prey to the idea of obsessing over pointless rules that didn't ultimately achieve social justice.

All three traditions failed.

If Judaism has reformed and put its house back in order then it should be considering its mission and purpose in the world. But personally, I don't think much can be done until the three traditions see themselves as part of a common purpose. They are presently ideologically opposed to each other, each conforming to rules they have made for themselves. That is what I see as the biggest problem of all. As long as we keep making and maintaining rules to which we must conform to maintain some religious identity, we are derelicting and neglecting the mission to bring justice to the world.

When we see a way to look past our conformist ideological rules, we may realise that what divided us was never really important in the first place. Judaism, Christianity and Islam will simply disappear.

That may not happen for several generations. I may not be alive when it happens. But there must be a time to reach consensus. That would be the real reformation.

i am interested to hear - were these noahides taught by chabad rabbis

Have a look at the following two web sites and compare them. In the first you will find some not so friendly things said about Christianity if you look in the right places. In the second, it hardly mentions Christianity. I don't really have a problem with the second. But the first one really disturbs me.

JAHG-USA Official Web Site
Noahide.org - Home Page

To be fair though, when I see "Christian" (I prefer to call them fundamentalist) web sites talking about "who is saved" with regards to other religions, I can see how some might see this as an appropriate response. But I don't like those web sites either anyway. I've become disillusioned with sites that promote one tradition over the others without giving credit to them.

I would much prefer the ideas of Jacob Emden and E. P. Sanders over these Christian sites and the first Noahide site above.

So what we have then is a bunch of Abrahamic religions today, all in need of major reform.

I agree. Too much energy is expended on making and maintaining pointless rules of conformity that have less to do with justice than maintenance of a religious identity. When are we going to finish putting our houses in order and start doing something constructive socially, politically and economically?

95 % of religion is superficial rubbish and decoration and only 5 % is real justice. I think that would make a nice rule for Judaism, Christianity and Islam combined.

The devil is in the details.

By the way, when I mention E. P. Sanders, his ideas are actually relevant to this discussion of salvation and hell, so I'm not just venting over people's views of Christianity's relationship with Judaism and Noahidism here. (Just in case the moderators finally intervene and start editing.)

 

[Faithfulservant]

If it is OLD TESTAMENT then why was the word OLAM used???? (You know, by God, when referring to the covenants he made with Abraham and Moses)
Meaning perpetual, as in forever????
The thing that I discovered that christians have done is misinterprete the passage in Jeremiah 31 which discusses an alleged "NEW" covenant.
At least that is the way the word is translated into Greek and English. But if you spend some time doing word studies you will find that the meaning is actually "RENEWED" and not "NEW". So the original covenant is not void at all.
Make such a fundamental blunder in a court of law and you will swiftly find that the rest of your lengthy and carefully crafted case is render moot and irrelevant.
This, by the way, is part of the path which led me out of the christian ideology (which I once seriously believed in).

Shawn
Im not sure where you get your information but I feel the need to correct you because I would want someone to correct me if I was giving wrong or partial information.

I am using the KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

B@riyth is the word hebrew used in the OT for Covenant

1. covenant, alliance, pledge
   1. between men
      1. treaty, alliance, league (man to man)
      2. constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects)
      3. agreement, pledge (man to man)
      4. alliance (of friendship)
      5. alliance (of marriage)
   2. between God and man
      1. alliance (of friendship)
      2. covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges)
2. (phrases)
   1. covenant making
   2. covenant keeping
   3. covenant violation

And when crosschecking from Hebrew to English in the OT… I could find no “Olam” so sorry I don’t know what to tell you.

Anyways… Yes Gods covenants are forever… but He never said He wouldn’t offer a new version because He is merciful or because He just feels like it. A person has two choices.. follow the Old Covenant and be bound by the Law or follow the New Covenant and have liberty in Jesus Christ.. it really isnt hard to understand Hes not replacing as much as giving an alternative because we are all bound by one or the other. Jesus, Himself said so. .

This is what I could find on “Olam’ using Britannica.com

(Hebrew: “this world”), in Jewish theology, present life on earth, as opposed to ʿolam ha-ba (“the world to come”). Though ʿolam ha-ze is full of misery and injustice, one’s view of life is transformed by realizing—as the Mishna (code of Jewish law) explains—that “this life” is but an antechamber where one prepares oneself to be admitted to the banquet hall that is “the world to come

As far as supporting my statement that Testament in fact means Covenant

Diatheke is the greek word for Testament and covenant using The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Meaning: a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will a compact, a covenant, a testament God's covenant with Noah, etc.

Thank you shawn for your contribution to this thread.

 

[shawn]

Shawn
Im not sure where you get your information but I feel the need to correct you because I would want someone to correct me if I was giving wrong or partial information.

I am using the KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

B@riyth is the word hebrew used in the OT for Covenant

1. covenant, alliance, pledge
   1. between men
      1. treaty, alliance, league (man to man)
      2. constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects)
      3. agreement, pledge (man to man)
      4. alliance (of friendship)
      5. alliance (of marriage)
   2. between God and man
      1. alliance (of friendship)
      2. covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges)
2. (phrases)
   1. covenant making
   2. covenant keeping
   3. covenant violation

And when crosschecking from Hebrew to English in the OT… I could find no “Olam” so sorry I don’t know what to tell you.

Anyways… Yes Gods covenants are forever… but He never said He wouldn’t offer a new version because He is merciful or because He just feels like it. A person has two choices.. follow the Old Covenant and be bound by the Law or follow the New Covenant and have liberty in Jesus Christ.. it really isnt hard to understand Hes not replacing as much as giving an alternative because we are all bound by one or the other. Jesus, Himself said so. .

This is what I could find on “Olam’ using Britannica.com



As far as supporting my statement that Testament in fact means Covenant

Diatheke is the greek word for Testament and covenant using The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Meaning: a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will a compact, a covenant, a testament God's covenant with Noah, etc.

Thank you shawn for your contribution to this thread.

Need to sharpen those research skills then.
As there is lots of references.
Do you have a strong's concordance?

******************
Torah, Bereshis 8, 9 :
|8| And Elohim spoke unto
Noach, and to his banim with
him, saying,
|9| And I, hineni, I establish
My brit (covenant) with you,
and with your zera after you;
|10| And with kol nefesh that
is with you, of the bird, of the
behemah, and of every animal
of ha'aretz with you; from kol
yotzei hatevah (all that go out
of the ark), to every creature of
ha'aretz.
|11| And I will establish My
brit (covenant) with you,
neither shall kol basar yikaret
(be cut off, violently killed) any
more by the waters of the
mabbul; neither shall there be
any more mabbul l'shachat (to
destroy) ha'aretz.
|12| And Elohim said, This is
the ot (sign) of the brit
(covenant) which I make
between Me and you and every
nefesh chayyah (living
creature) that is with you, for
dorot olam (perpetual
generations);
|13| I do set My keshet (bow)
in the anan (cloud), and it
shall be for an ot brit between
Me and ha'aretz.
|14| And it shall come to
pass, when I bring an anan
over ha'aretz, that the keshet
be'anan (rainbow) shall be
seen;
|15| And I will remember My
brit, which is between Me and
you and kol nefesh chayyah of
kol basar; and the waters shall
no more become a mabbul
(flood) l'shachat (to destroy)
kol basar.
|16| And the keshet shall be
in the anan; and I will look
upon it, that I may remember
the brit olam between Elohim
and kol nefesh chayyah of kol
basar that is upon ha'aretz.
********************
13 V’Shamru / And They Shall Keep
V’shamru b’nei Yisrael et ha Shabbat / The people of Israel are to keep the Shabbat
La’asot et ha Shabbat/ To observe the Shabbat
l’dorotam b’rit olam / Throughout all their generations as a perpetual covenant
Bayni u’veyn bnei Yisrael ot hi l’olam / “It is a sign between Me and the people of Israel forever;
Ki sheyshet yamim asah Adonai / For in six days the L‐RD made
Et hashamayim v’et ha’aretz / heaven and the earth,
U’vayom hashvi’i / but on the seventh day
Shavat v’yinafash / He stopped working and rested.

******************
"brit kehunat olam" = the covenant of perpetual priesthood.

****************
http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah.com/HebEngTaNaKh19.html

9 Vechagarta otam avnet Aharon uvanav vechavashta lahem migba'ot vehayetah lahem kehunah lechukat olam umileta yad-Aharon veyad-banav.
And you shall gird them with sashes, Aharon and his sons, and put the hats on them. The priesthood shall be theirs for a perpetual statute. So you shall consecrate Aharon and his sons.

*****************
Becoming Jewish - Jewish Theology

[SIZE=+1]Biblical Covenants[/SIZE]
There are five Biblical covenants in the Tanach (Hebrew Scriptures).
1. Noachide (Genesis 9:8-17) - The eternal covenant with Noach and his descendents that G-d would never again destroy the earth with a flood. The sign of this covenant is the rainbow.
2. Avrahamic (Genesis 15:7-21; 17:10) - The eternal covenant with Avraham and his descendents regarding the Land of Israel and his descendents perpetual entitlement to that land. The sign of this covenant is the circumcision.
3. Sinatic (Exodus 19-24) - The eternal covenant with the Children of Israel and their descendents regarding G-d being their god forever and protecting them. The sign of this covenant is the Law.
4. Priestly (Numbers 25:12-13) - The eternal covenant with Phineas regarding the eternal priesthood to the Aaronic line. The sign of this is the priesthood that remained in the Aaronic line and the Aaronic priesthood will return to perform the duties in the Third Temple.
5. Kingly (II Samuel 23:5) - The eternal covenant with David regarding the eternal kingship to the Davidic line. The sign of this is the kingship that remained in the Davidic line and will return with the last king - the Moshiach (Messiah).

*************
The bible was not written in English to people in our Age, so it behooves one to make the effort to get some word study books and learn how to read the book in its original form which is Hebrew, well actually Aramaic. Otherwise you are working with second and third hand information which is proven unreliable.

Shawn

 

[Dondi]

Anyways… Yes Gods covenants are forever… but He never said He wouldn’t offer a new version because He is merciful or because He just feels like it. A person has two choices.. follow the Old Covenant and be bound by the Law or follow the New Covenant and have liberty in Jesus Christ.. it really isnt hard to understand Hes not replacing as much as giving an alternative because we are all bound by one or the other. Jesus, Himself said so.

If we are not bound by the Law, then do we need to be worried about sin? (I speak rhetorically) Are we at liberty to live as we will? What does it mean, really, to have liberty in Christ? What kind of alternative do you mean?

 

[Faithfulservant]

Dondi You are asking me a question you know the answer to

Im not sure I understand why other than you are testing me...?

a believer becomes a new creation Dondi and a believer begins the change that will one day cause them to become "like Christ" A beleiver knows he cannot live as he will because when Jesus is your Lord you cannot help but want to live to please Him and not yourself He literally becomes Lord of your life and your life no longer belongs to you.. Its the same thing with works.. we are not saved by them but they are a product of our faith they happen because we believe. Its the natural progression as we grow spiritually. Yes there are those that had their seed sown in shallow soil. but thats between God and that person and none of mine or any other Christians business other than the effect it has on the rest of the body.

God judges us and God decides what is right or wrong... He judges the heart. He is not going to judge me the same as the next person. In a sense my judgement will be worse because I knew better and I will know I was disobedient but the person that didnt read the bible and didnt pray and didnt grow will not be held to the same standard I will.

I know you know your bible and I know you know there are two judgements. The white throne judgement and the bema seat judgement. The bema seat judgement is for the believer where their works are judged by fire the rewards are given and the rest burned up flame... the rewards then placed at the feet of Jesus. The white throne judgement is to see if the persons name is written in the book of life.

I know Im confusing people. I promise Im not trying to. Most the time I would just shut up and drop it to avoid ugliness but for some reason I cant

Dondi I know you know these things. So im confused by the questions.

Liberty to me is knowing
Jesus is my Truth I can stand in it and be assured..
that Jesus is my Righteousness and not by MY goodness but His
Jesus is my Peace... not my strength but His.
Jesus is my Hope of Salvation... His promised return
Jesus Christ is my Faith.

that is the result of recieving the armor of God when I was saved and mentally putting it on everyday when I have fears and doubts.

Shawn

the Jews will perpetually and forever be the priesthood for Hashem.. Ive never denied that lol. But thats different than what you were impying before. Im glad we got that straightened out

 

[shawn]

Faithfulservant
the Jews will perpetually and forever be the priesthood for Hashem.. Ive never denied that lol. But thats different than what you were implying before. I'm glad we got that straightened out

I am not sure what you think we have gotten straight

 

[Dondi]

Dondi You are asking me a question you know the answer to

Im not sure I understand why other than you are testing me...?

Well, yes, I said I spoke rhetorically. Not to get an reaction, but to consider whether there is a difference between Law and Grace. Everything in the OT points to Christ, including the Law. But the Law hasn't passed away (Matthew 5:18). Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law in that we need no more to sacrifice bull and goats. His Blood is what give us Grace. Now we can operate in the Law of Love, which really is what the the Tem Commandments reflect: Love God and love your neighbor. Only the Law is written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit of God.

a believer becomes a new creation Dondi and a believer begins the change that will one day cause them to become "like Christ" A beleiver knows he cannot live as he will because when Jesus is your Lord you cannot help but want to live to please Him and not yourself He literally becomes Lord of your life and your life no longer belongs to you.

But to make Him you Lord, you have to be willing to follow Him. I do not believe that change is automatic. Well, you may argue that a person never really became a Christian in the first place if he doesn't follow the Lord. But the fact is there are so many that believe that they are saved, yet do not.

I was once like that. I got saved at the age of about 13 in an invitation in a Baptist church. My motivation was that I didn't want to go to hell, for that was the overall theme of the sermon that night, so I went forward and accepted Jesus in my heart (And I meant it!). But then my attitude was, "Hey, I'm in! So PARTY ON!". Oh I went to church, joined the youth group, but never really clicked in. And for a long time I drifted in and out of church and into the world, STILL believing for the most part that I was saved.

By the time I entered the Navy, I pretty much lived as I pleased. And I drifted far and partied hard. But there was no real love for God. But then I gotten into a situation of depair, where nothing was going right. It was in the low place that I reached out to the Lord, though He seemed a million miles away and I had doubts if He even was there at all. But I knew then I needed a change, so I took a chance with God. And that is where I found God, found the love of God and cleansing in my soul, and a real relationship with Him.

The point is, I didn't come to God that time because I had a fear of hell. I came to God because I had a real need in my life. And that when things changed for me. And that's what I've been trying to get at with you. You can tell people about dangers of hell all day long, and yes it is real, but that doesn't always work. And even if they come, they come out of fear. They will not know to love God.

I've seen it many times. I go out on visitation and praise God when someone gets saved and I'm all excited about it. But then I wonder why these people don't come to church when invited. Some do, but not many. Do they have the same attitude that I did long ago?

Its the same thing with works.. we are not saved by them but they are a product of our faith they happen because we believe. Its the natural progression as we grow spiritually.

James will disagree with you. What is the product of our faith? Does our belief produce them? Our trust in God produce them? James says be doers of the word, not hearers only. We exercise our faith be doing what the Lord wills. We have to be a sacrifice to Him, it's not going to come naturally (maybe for some, but I've had to work at it). We show our faith by doing. And I don't see that being any different than what Abraham, Moses, and David did, yet they were under the law.

Yes there are those that had their seed sown in shallow soil. but thats between God and that person and none of mine or any other Christians business other than the effect it has on the rest of the body.

Yeah, but see it is our business. Aren't we supposed to make disciples? Aren't we suppose top help the weaker brothers and sisters in Christ, bear each other's burdens and such?

God judges us and God decides what is right or wrong... He judges the heart. He is not going to judge me the same as the next person. In a sense my judgement will be worse because I knew better and I will know I was disobedient but the person that didnt read the bible and didnt pray and didnt grow will not be held to the same standard I will.

God will judge on the same standard, even on the heart. But to much is given, much will be required.

But why didn't that person read the bible, nor pray, nor grow? Wouldn't that person have been just responsible for not doing these things as you are for knowing better?

I know you know your bible and I know you know there are two judgements. The white throne judgement and the bema seat judgement. The bema seat judgement is for the believer where their works are judged by fire the rewards are given and the rest burned up flame... the rewards then placed at the feet of Jesus. The white throne judgement is to see if the persons name is written in the book of life.

Interesting you brought up the judgement seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10)(and yes, I know all about what is called the two judgements). But I'm wondering if they aren't the same thing. Sure, Baptist doctrine tell us they are two. But what are we being judge on? The verse says we will be judged on what we've done in the body, whether good or bad. But Rev 20:12 seems to tell us the same thing, they are judged by their works. How do you know that they aren't the same thing?

What interests me as an aside if that further down in that same chapter (2 Cor. 5:17-20) we have the very passage that has led me to this doctrine that you seemed vehemently against. Am I not to have hope that God will reconcile the world to Himself?

 

[wil]

Everything in the OT points to Christ,

We were discussing elsewhere truth. What you are indicating is a decidedly Christian truth POV, ask a Jew and he will tell you the truth of exactly how we have misread the Jewish texts.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I also believe we are operating under the law of Love. I also do not believe that change is immediate.. it would be too traumatizing lol. God deals with us slowly so as to not overwhelm us. This is why I like the term strongholds. Each layer revealing Christ in us as its dealth with. I also believe you were saved at 13 even if it was an immature decision. He will use any tactic and any medium to do His will that is why I don’t have issues with other denominations. Its like cutting off your nose to spite your face.. You believed in Him that is all that is required. He let you go through your rebellion and allowed you to get to the point in your life when He could call you back into the fold because He promises to never let us fall a fatal fall and He is forever the shephard isnt he. I will make a wager with you? Is that a sin?? Lol I bet when you are before the Lord receiving your rewards you will have unknowingly received a lot of them from that age of 13 till the point your backsliding brought you. Not everyone FEELS the saving.. Its not always a feeling or a knowing. I had a friend who kept doubting her salvation she kept going to her pastor telling him she was afraid she wasn’t saved. I asked her if she accepted Jesus into her heart she said yes.. I asked her if she believed He is risen and she said yes then I said why don’t you believe and she said because she couldn’t “feel” it. You also don’t have to do anything to maintain that salvation.. you don’t lose it. I reject any teaching that says otherwise.

I will also suggest that James does agree with me. Faith put into action is Works .. it is the product of Faith. We are to live by Faith and works is faith made visible. I think maybe I am not speaking clearly because you are saying what I say.. Works do not save us. We do not receive Salvation for being a good person with good works. Its only through Christs righteousness that we can produce pure of heart works at all.

Yes we are to make disciples of men… but its also not my place to judge whether someone is saved or not. I can inspect fruit but each person has to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

So I think you contradict yourself by saying we are judged by the same standard… the same standard is simply that He judges the motive of heart. But you also say to much is given much will be required… contradicts the same standard you think it will be.

There is no why this why that.. Jesus came Jesus saved that’s enough.. Im not interested in casting a stone at someone elses dirty deeds… heck I got my own to parlez with Jesus about.

I like the theory of the Judgement seat of Christ being at the marriage supper. I think its not going to be about judgement like at a trial to convict.. but a judgment at a trial to reward. The White throne judgement will happen at the end of the thousand years in Christs reign. But these are open to interpretation but what I do know is that the bema seat is for believers and the judgement seat is for the those that are alive and the dead that lived before. I also believe in the rapture but that’s a whole other can of worms that I refuse to go into again but that is why I do not believe they are the same thing.. we will already be with Christ. And the only way to test that is to just wait but on that I wont budge either.. lol

These are what I say is the closest to my belief system and why they are separate
http://www.gotquestions.org/great-white-throne-judgment.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment-seat-Christ.html

and while I was finding that I found this
http://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html

which kind of shows your new belief might have a label anyways. Lol and that response is so much better than I could ever explain and fits right along with my view. So really. I suck at this. Sorry L

 

[Faithfulservant]

We were discussing elsewhere truth. What you are indicating is a decidedly Christian truth POV, ask a Jew and he will tell you the truth of exactly how we have misread the Jewish texts.

and thats why Im not saying that in Judaism, wil Im saying it in a dialogue with another evangelical Christian that holds the same belief. Im not the only one with this belief in the Christian faith. I would like to make sure BB understands that when he is so rude.. that I dont put myself in his face on the Judaism board telling him how wrong his people are for rejecting their messiah.. It for sure would not be tolerated. but for some reason everyones up BBs butt.. but oh well its not my forum and I just deal with it like I have for the past how many years with grace and dignity befitting my gender. right? well I try anyways.

 

[wil]

I just deal with it like I have for the past how many years with grace and dignity befitting my gender. right? well I try anyways.

Namaste FS,

Seriously now, how many monitors have had to eat shoes after some of our discussions?

On another note from another discussion, do your beliefs include the trinity?