What is True Love ?

[wil]

Yeah... but it's only during a period of time. Then she tells you to take out the trash... or put on a better shirt... or that her sister is coming to visit for two weeks... and the true love ain't that true anymore.

I'm not saying it disappears completely. But it changes. It waxes and wanes. Love isn't true. Your commitment might be true, but I think if your honest with yourself, you'll have to admit that your love isn't.

I've been happily committed and in love to the same woman for 17 years... and I'm not afraid to admit it.

Now I was only married for 22 years before getting traded in....and I can't say what we had was unconditional love or 'true' love. But I do know that my consideration at the end of our marriage was that if she wanted out and desired another, who was I to stand in the way? As I did love and care for her why would I consider wanting her to stay with me if that wasn't her wishes? However, I've seen unconditional love in other couples, couples married much longer, and in siblings, now who knows maybe it took decades to get to that space. Where there is no take of the trash or change your shirt with any kind of attitude. They do for each other willingly, continually and joyfully. The thing about 'true' love vs. unconditional love is if we can fall into love, we can fall out of it.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil,you said,

"...if she wanted out and desired another, who was I to stand in the way?"

--> I commend you on your unselfishness. Many of us are not so unselfish. Yours is an inspiring story.

"...I've seen unconditional love in other couples, couples married much longer, and in siblings, now who knows maybe it took decades to get to that space."

--> This reminds me of a movie that everyone absolutely must watch, the story of two people who travel a long, painful road to unconditional love for each other:

Scener ur ett aktenskap (1973)

The movie (actually six TV episodes) has English subtitles. The English title is Scenes from a Marriage (1973)

"The thing about 'true' love vs. unconditional love is if we can fall into love, we can fall out of it."

--> My point exactly. There is no such thing as "falling" out of compassion.

 

[wil]

--> I commend you on your unselfishness. Many of us are not so unselfish. Yours is an inspiring story.

Namaste Nick,

While my ego appreciates a good stroking (just to show how far I have to go yet), reality is it was more logical to me. I could fight and fuss, I could complain and whine, I could insist and yell. And all of those might have some benefit. But the reality was there were a number of souls involved in all this. There was my wife and I. There was our kids. There was my mom and my sisters family and her kids. There was her sister, and many others that had known us for decades. A messy drag out would affect all of them and was there the remotest possiblity what would occur in the end would be an improvement on the situation?

I was dealt a new hand, I had to play it the best I could, not just for me but for all concerned...which in the end was he best for me....unselfish, I think not. More likely simply pragmatic (and selfishness as well).

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil, spoken like the true stoic you seem to be. The one thing you have not mentioned is the emotional attachment you must have had for her, and the strain of going through the process of breaking that emotional attachment. It is only natural for a person to fight to keep one's spouse, in order not to suffer the pain of rejection and loss of the object of your emotional attachment. I see the real dilemma you faced at that time as being the painful choice between two difficult and unrecitfiable emotional choices, each with a terrible price to pay.

 

[Gatekeeper]

True Love appears in my life when there is unity between my mind and my body, unity between me and my wife and unity between us and our children. This is the standard of love, I always want to have.

What is your definition of True Love ?

Love is much more than a fickle emotion, just as it is more than mere action or words. It is the essence of God Himself. Love is THE divine essence that when utilized and embraced, removes the many strongholds that bind us in spirit.

Jealousy, anger, bitterness, greed, selfishness, pride, hate, fear, lust, envy, the intolerance of others, and every other spiritual vice can be conquered through love.

True love is not proud, jealous, envious, haughty, or boastful, nor do those that know it seek their own, but rather the good of others. It is the source of all virtue, just as lack of love is the source all of vice. It is life and light to those who keep it close to heart (It is a compass).

Love is not dependent upon condition; it realizes that none are perfect. It leads us toward unity with God, his grace, as well as his mercy. It is purity in essence releasing us from the darkness of heart, soul and mind.

Love lends to us comfort, peace, and power over the many spiritual negatives. It is mankind’s only real freedom, even when we ourselves become slaves to it. It is the strait gate, and the narrow path that so many fail to enter and follow.

Love is the Logos of God - Love is the Essence of God - Love is the Spirit of God - Love is the Seed of God, planted in the hearts of men, whereby we are made new in Christ's image (born again) in God's grace.

That's how I view love ...

GK

 

[wil]

The one thing you have not mentioned is the emotional attachment you must have had for her, and the strain of going through the process of breaking that emotional attachment.

Namaste Nick,

The emotional attachment is not gone. While I have no inclination to return to our formal relationship, I have lost no love or concern for her. She is the mother of my children, I spent over two decades with her. I look back on the situation and am pretty much convinced that it was I who chose not to fulfill her needs in the relationship, which caused her to look elsewhere. Now one could argue until they were blue in the face who harmed who or who didn't do what, but in reality if her expectation were for me to stand on my head and spit wooden nickels and I consciously or subconsciously made a decision not to comply I am part and parcel of any subsequent decisions she may make.

So while my understandings of what committment to family and marriage may have been different than hers, and while I was oblivious to the extent of her discontent, none of that absolves me from being part of the process.

Heck, I've got two 16 year old kids that will still sit in my lap, that will pile on top of me if I lay on the couch, that will tell me the stories of their day and ask my opinion on topics and choices that concern them. What's not to like? The one thing I know is I don't know how it all fits together for the best of all concerned, but I know it will, and I know I am content, and if I'm not that is my choice, not someone elses.

 

[Ahanu]

At first, I believe Soleil10 was speaking of love between people, but now the thread has shifted to romantic love, right?

Keeping true love in an intimate relationship hangs on three things: social status, looks, and vitality/warmness. Any of those three components of true love come in various orders of importance depending on the person. That's why people fall out of love; all of these conditions are subject to change.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil, you said,

"...it was I who chose not to fulfill her needs in the relationship..."

--> I think that one of the most important things two people can do is sit down and discuss such a topic frankly and honestly as soon as they are best buddies. Did the two of you ever discuss this topic? Did the two of you used to be best buddies?

"Heck, I've got two 16 year old kids that will still sit in my lap, that will pile on top of me if I lay on the couch, that will tell me the stories of their day and ask my opinion on topics and choices that concern them."

--> I call this Sharing, and I think that Sharing is perhaps the most important thing in a relationship, much more important than romance, sex, etc. You have a need to have Sharing everyday, and you are getting that from your children. Good for you.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Ahanu,

I agree that there is "love between people" and romantic love. I call the first one compassion and the second one love. I think a lot of people confuse the two.

 

[soleil10]

I get to be the cynic here...

True love between humans is a fairy tale. Love comes with conditions. It changes by the moment. True love of God is another story. That love is always present, whether I am receptive to it or not. The compassion that rains down upon us is the truest, most constant love we will ever know.

Parental love is unconditional. That has been my experience

 

[Gatekeeper]

I get to be the cynic here...

True love between humans is a fairy tale. Love comes with conditions. It changes by the moment.

True love of God is another story. That love is always present, whether I am receptive to it or not. The compassion that rains down upon us is the truest, most constant love we will ever know.

I might suggest that the love between man and a woman (Romantic love) comes and goes, but humans "can" have an unconditional love for one another. Not only is it possible; it is obvious when one considers the love of a child.

[youtube]rXecU2tLFgo[/youtube]

 

[wil]

Parental love is unconditional. That has been my experience

How does that relate to the fall?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil,

The other thing that is happily missing from your story is a lack of the pain of rejection. When I break up with a woman (I am a guy), I get a tremendous feeling of rejection. I am devastated after I break up with someone. You seem to have handled the breakup with only a small amount of unhappiness, and not the sense of devastation that many of us feel in a similar situation.

It must be nice!

 

[citizenzen]

Parental love is unconditional. That has been my experience

Yeah... that thought had crossed my mind to, though not being a parent, I wouldn't know.

I'm probably being nit-picky here, but I suspect that even that love is conditional. If a child were evil enough, even a parent could fall out of love.

Do you really think that there's nothing an offspring could do to cause a parent to stop loving them? If that were true, the concept of "disowning" would never have originated.

I think it's pretty safe to say that any love felt by a human being is conditional.

 

[nativeastral]

Yeah... that thought had crossed my mind to, though not being a parent, I wouldn't know.

I'm probably being nit-picky here, but I suspect that even that love is conditional. If a child were evil enough, even a parent could fall out of love.

Do you really think that there's nothing an offspring could do to cause a parent to stop loving them? If that were true, the concept of "disowning" would never have originated.

I think it's pretty safe to say that any love felt by a human being is conditional.

your'e so right zen l got so annoyed with my kids when they didn't do what they were told and l still see it in situations where l had 'expectations'
too idealistic [neptune rising], blame the fairy tales

 

[Raksha]

The latest (to me, disheartening) fad is something called hooking up.

It is idea of having countless one-stands without even attempting to learn the other person's first name, much less strive for any emotional intimacy.

Tom Wolfe

Sex Without Intimacy: No Dating, No Relationships

HUH??? Why would anyone even WANT that? Guess I'll have to read the articles to find out! I'd find that very unsatisfying and imagine most other people would feel the same way.

--Linda

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Linda,

There are several factors. One is that there is a tremendous pressure on young people to be sexually active. I think that most adults have no idea how widespread casual sex is among young people. If I remember correctly, something like 30% to 50% of 13-year-olds have already had a sexual experience. To us it is shocking, but to them it is the norm, because so many of their friends are doing it. (You can also imagine what this means by the time they are 16, still an unfathomable age to be doing the things they are doing.) I do not know, but I think the pressure to have sex on first dates is too large, and it is too much the norm for all of their friends, for most college students to say no. No one wants to be the laughing stock of half (or more) of the dorm. (You and I know that anyone who says "abstinence until marriage" IS going to be the laughing stock of the entire dorm.)

I think there is also a rising sense of alienation and loneliness in our society. Emotional needs are going more unfulfilled than ever before. These young people are in more need for emotional intimacy, more desperate for love than at any other time in our history, and they think they can find it through sex -- a mistaken assumption, but they do not see the mistake.

 

[Raksha]

If I remember correctly, something like 30% to 50% of 13-year-olds have already had a sexual experience. To us it is shocking, but to them it is the norm, because so many of their friends are doing it. (You can also imagine what this means by the time they are 16, still an unfathomable age to be doing the things they are doing.)

Nick,

I'm not sure how old you are, but I came of age in the 1960s when the "new" values of the sexual revolution were just beginning to manifest. It didn't happen overnight but it still happened pretty fast--I'd say over a period of about five years, from about 1960 to 1965.

Probably the biggest change wasn't so much in actual behavior, but in the elimination of a certain level of hypocrisy that had been the norm until then. In my case, what it basically amounted to was a vehement rejection of the double standard--you know, the old madonna/whore, good girl/bad girl thing. In other words, it was all of a piece with my feminist orientation.

I think all of us tend to consider the sexual mores of our youth (whatever they were) as somehow being "normal." And so sooner or later, we all turn into a bunch of old fogeys saying, "Now back in MY day..."

Okay, so back in MY day...yes, thirteen would have been considered shockingly young to start having sex. Because after all...I was eighteen, and that's normal. And so sixteen seems a little bit young to me , but not "unfathomably young." Eighteen is normal.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. It's the alienation you talked about that disturbs me the most--the lack of emotional intimacy. That would not have been considered normal in the 1960s.

--Linda

 

[wil]

Wil,

The other thing that is happily missing from your story is a lack of the pain of rejection.

It must be nice!

I do believe I went through quite a period of undiagnosed and largely ignored depression. But rejection issues, no just loss of future expectations. I expected one of us to eventually be pushing the other in a wheel chair at some point in time, growing old with each others wrinkles... But that was a great lesson in expectations.

I'm probably being nit-picky here, but I suspect that even that love is conditional. If a child were evil enough, even a parent could fall out of love....I think it's pretty safe to say that any love felt by a human being is conditional.

2 thoughts.

Just cause you don't like em, doesn't mean you don't love em.

I've seen many a parent loving many a child all the way to jail...

I think all of us tend to consider the sexual mores of our youth (whatever they were) as somehow being "normal."

It's the alienation you talked about that disturbs me the most--the lack of emotional intimacy. That would not have been considered normal in the 1960s.

First I sort of missed the 60's but since 11 is normal to me...I caught the tail end of it. But the swingin and orgies and free love...there was a lot of sex without emotional intimacy. It was sex rebelling against conformity and authority.

None of that makes it any easier to have 16 year olds today....

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Raksha,

I agree that the lack of emotional intimacy is the big problem, and that it is increasing in our society at an alarming rate. All we can do is try to reach out to the people around us and help them find some inner peace.

Wil,

I am sorry to hear about your "undiagnosed and largely ignored depression." (That is a great phrase.) I think a lot of people are suffering from it. A lot of people are depressed, but it is not bad enough to where it can be diagnosed as what I call "clinical depression." A lot of people are just struggling to get through life.