The WWII question

[Dogbrain]

Another interesting question is why isn't the genocide of the many nations of Native Americans considered a holocaust, while the genocide of Jews is?

Because the Indians were simply in the way of a land grab and were not, for the most part, specifically targeted for extermination by the USA or European powers. It is true that there were a few who took such a view, but the majority view of the invaders was that the natives were simply in the way and had to be removed, one way or another. The Holocaust, on the other hand, had the explicit motive of extermination.

Doesn't make one any better or worse than the other, but it is valuable to distinguish among the various types and motives for genocide. Saying that "genocide is genocide" and demanding that they all be called "Holocaust" is as foolish and futile as saying "disease is disease" and they all be called "cancer".

 

[Marsh]

Hi/peace--

Well, according to the statistics the numbers of the dead non-combatant is staggering. Ukranian non-combatants alone (non-Jews) are estimated between 5.5million--7.7million. Also, the Nazis held in the concentration camps many non-Jews as well. While any victim, Jewish or not, should be honored, I think when people talk about Holocaust, non-Jewish victims must be remembered as well. But, it seems, more so in North America and western Europe, the Holocaust is most exclusively remembered as the one against Jews.

What? Are you surprised that the Islamic states in the Middle East don't remember it this way?

The Holocaust is remembered as an attempt to destroy the Jews because it was an attempt to destroy the Jews. The word Holocaust means "destruction by fire," yeah? It refers to the burning of bodies in the extermination camps. These camps were built specifically for killing Jews, and were also used for killing other people considered undesirable.

Nazi leaders did not meet together to discuss a "final solution to the gay question," or a "final solution to the gypsy question," or a "final solution to the Muslims living in the Balkans question." They met to discuss the "final solution to the Jewish question," and the solution was the extermination camps.

I'm not Jewish, but if I was I would be extremely offended by your post, because while you attempt to come across as wanting to discuss the issue in a scholarly way, the undertones are clear: you don't think the suffering of Jews during WWII should be remembered, and it's not open to discussion. There are several replies to your first post that clarify the issue, and yet this second post completely disregards what was said. If you really wanted to discuss this issue, surely the intelligent and well-articulated thoughts of the people who replied to you should have figured into your most recent response.

 

[farhan]

Peace to everyone--

According to this source:
World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Total civilian deaths of WWII range between 34 million--46 million, out of which there is roughly 6 million Jews.

Although I feel it does not matter how many people are killed, for in my eyes one person is too horrible a crime and of course more than that is even worse.

But, why then, is the holocaust attributed only to the Jews? Surely, if one is to compare the numbers 30 million is 5 times that of 6 million. Why did the holocaust become exclusively jewish, when the 30+ million were just as innocent? They fought back Hitler and his supporters because they did not believe in oppression and racism.

And the evidence shows that it was not only the Jews who were in concentration camps. According to the sources we have, for instance, in the concentration camp Jasenovac (Croatia, former Yugoslavian republic) there were 30,000 Jews, close to half a million of Orthodox Christians (Serbs) and several thousands others (Muslims, Roma, some Catholics as well).

So why is the holocaust only associated with the Jews?

The Holocaust industry: reflections ... - Google Books

Never talk about it......holier than God....The Axiomatic Truth for the modern world.

The author, son of holocaust survivors himself, got fired for writing this book

 

[bananabrain]

I'm not Jewish, but if I was I would be extremely offended by your post, because while you attempt to come across as wanting to discuss the issue in a scholarly way, the undertones are clear: you don't think the suffering of Jews during WWII should be remembered, and it's not open to discussion.

marsh, as you know, i'm jewish and i'm not offended by it, partly because i am aware of the environment amica's in and she's honestly questioning it. i don't go on about it endlessly, because there was judaism (and zionism) long before the holocaust and has been long since, but i think this issue should be discussed without presumption of axe-to-grind - except where it is obvious, as in the case of the blatantly prejudiced farhan, above, who is saturated with the anti-semitism and holocaust denial that is endemic in the society he lives in and doesn't have the brains to question it, rather sucks up the poison and spews the iranian-sponsored islamist narrative right back out again without engaging his critical faculties. that is what's sad. obviously there are some people who abuse the holocaust, i have considerable experience with them myself, but perhaps if farhan would care to have his bigotry tested he'd like to hear some of the experiences of my late father-in-law, who had his entire family murdered in auschwitz.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Thomas]

So why is the holocaust only associated with the Jews?

Because after about a ten-year silence, and with the establishment of the State of Israel, the Jews have made a consistent and concerted effort to keep the memory of it alive as a lever in negotiations with the West.

The number of Russians and Ukrainians killed, for example, far outnumbers the Jews, and will probably never be known. But the Ukraine doesn't figure in the Western European mindset as much ... didn't before, and it doesn't now ...

Added to that, a large dollop of guilt. Most of Europe was unthinkingly antisemitic before the war, and the occupied countries made little effort to hamper the rounding up of the Jews ... the Allies made no attempt to hamper what they knew was going on ... never bombed the railroad to Auschwitz, never dropped arms and supplies to the Jews fighting in the Warsaw ghetto, even tho the bombers passed overhead ...

Take WWII — we (the Brits) think we won it ... the Americans think they won it ... but without the Russians ... and when do the Russians ever get a mention as paying a far greater price in terms of lives lost, and exacting a far greater price in terms of enemy killed than either we or the Americans achieved?

For them it is The Great Patriotic War.

Thomas

 

[17th Angel]

The jews were not the only ones to be targets in the holocaust, the JW's were also involved in the Die Endlösung. *nods sharply* So yeah Genocide wasn't exclusive...

But yeah all in all... Others had way bigger body counts than the jews. Well pointed out. I will agree that those who suffered the genocide were treated in such inhumane and terrible ways... It is so sad and sickening.... But in war... Everyone loses and suffers.... Seems alot of focus however, only goes on how the jews suffered... Like they were the only victims... Sheesh, please.

 

[Marsh]

Like they were the only victims... Sheesh, please.

Yeah, what a bunch of sissies! We should set a rule: no complaining until 7,000,000 people are murdered. That'll fix 'em...

*sigh*

 

[bananabrain]

i think the salient point was that the jews were targeted for extermination because of our *racial inferiority*. you could "give up" being a jw or a communist or a homosexual, those were considered by the nazis to be matters of choice. similarly, the "slav races" of russia and the ukraine, though "sub-human", were considered to be suitable slave labour for the aryan overlords of the new lebensraum. they could co-operate and collaborate, fulfilling their "place" in nazi "society". however, you could not "give up" being a jew, not by conversion, not by surgery (though that was of course tried) or by collaboration. you could not stop being a jew, because it was innate and racial. your only function was to be removed from the human race before you could do any more "damage".

similarly, there is a question of proportion. nobody disputes that a great number of millions of russians died as a result of the war - but the jewish population was reduced by 80%. my father-in-law and his brother and one uncle were all that survived from a family of something like thirty or forty - including his 8-year old sister, for whom mrs bb is named. we only have one photo of her and she looks very like my daughter.

perhaps that is why we "go on" about it. we do not deny that others paid a terrible price - but you need to understand why it was so uniquely a tragedy for us.

i thought "proportionality" was all the rage these days.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[17th Angel]

Yeah, what a bunch of sissies! We should set a rule: no complaining until 7,000,000 people are murdered. That'll fix 'em...

*sigh*

Not calling them sissies... I AGREE they suffered. Just they sure like to remind people constantly of their suffering.... And they simply don't have exclusive rights to suffering... Many lost their lives, families homes and were treated like s***. S*** Even Nazi soldiers suffered.

Points to the post afterwards.... I don't see it as a unique tragedy... I also don't see it as a competition... We're all in this together. May such an event never happen again.... Although I am certain it will. *shrugs*

perhaps that is why we "go on" about it. we do not deny that others paid a terrible price - but you need to understand why it was so uniquely a tragedy for us.

-EDIT-

BB, You say that a homosexual or a JW could change this? What about black people? Could they change their skin? Couldn't a jew change his/her faith? Or conceal/deny it? You don't have to admit you're jewish.. The only one's I can see that couldn't hide what they were are black people... Unless they got that skin disease like MJ.

 

[bananabrain]

Just they sure like to remind people constantly of their suffering....

really? you've known me and dauer and phyllis on this site a good long time, 17th - when was the last time any of us started a thread on this? when was the last time any of us brought it up? when was the last time any of us abused it to avoid criticism? frankly, this is turning into one of those bull**** "give a dog a bad name and hang him" memes and i don't care for it. i know some people can behave like that, but once you start talking about what "they" like to do, then you're into stereotype and prejudice territory and i hope you know better than that.

And they simply don't have exclusive rights to suffering... Many lost their lives, families homes and were treated like s***. S*** Even Nazi soldiers suffered.

who ever said anything different? nobody denies this.

BB, You say that a homosexual or a JW could change this?

no, i'm saying that that's what the nazis thought - and, at any rate, it could be denied, or recanted, in a way that being jewish couldn't, because it was inherently part of our genes, part of who we were "racially".

What about black people? Could they change their skin?

i don't seem to recall the nazis setting out to eliminate all the black people in europe, although they certainly regarded them as sub-human, the same as slavs - remember jesse owens and the berlin olympics. they were seen as "useful beasts of burden, to be dominated, tolerated and exploited as such", whereas this was not possible for us. there was no such thing as a "useful" jew, because according to them, to destroy the "aryan race" was written into our dna. you could send a black back off to africa, but a jew anywhere would still be a threat - that was the way they thought - and still think in many places.

Couldn't a jew change his/her faith? Or conceal/deny it? You don't have to admit you're jewish..

many tried. many denied it, many hid. some were successful. if they were caught, they went to the camps and to death. my father-in-law actually escaped death once because an ss guard couldn't believe he was jewish as his hair was so fair, so he let him clean his boots instead. however, once it was known that you were racially jewish - that you had one jewish grandparent was the rule - it didn't matter what you said or what you did, or how much you protested you thought the nazis were the best thing since sliced bread and that judaism was terrible - it would still be a death sentence.

are you getting this yet, or do i need to give you a reading list?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[17th Angel]

I am just asking questions. *shrugs*

As I wasn't there, and as I am not from a jewish family, I am not fully in the know about things eh? And I was just curious to know how without admitting you're jewish someone could look at you and say.. You, yep. You're a jew. So for your father in law judgement came to his physical appearance. (the hair.) Interesting, so say a non jewish person who had a rather large nose.... He could be in danger of been stereotyped as a jew? And Risking death.... Just from appearance?

 

[bananabrain]

I am just asking questions. *shrugs*

well, you were asking them like you already knew the answers - and the reasons for it all, too.

As I wasn't there, and as I am not from a jewish family, I am not fully in the know about things eh?

i wasn't there, either, but i read, study and ask when i don't know.

And I was just curious to know how without admitting you're jewish someone could look at you and say.. You, yep. You're a jew.

really? seriously? have you even seen nazi propaganda before? their "racial scientists" (who had a grip on everything, from the school system to the army) were famous for their attention to detail - they used to measure peoples' heads with calipers, check how far their eyes were apart, how big their noses were - how far it departed from the "aryan ideal". nobody got into the ss without going through a battery of "racial purity tests". as for anyone else who fell under suspicion for whatever reason, "something jewish" about them could always be found - it wasn't always a matter of checking whether you'd had the snip or not. it was one of the ways the nazi apparatchiks got their hands on most of the assets in the country, by finding ways to declare the owners jewish and therefore lootable. the point is this - the nazis had their own weirdo way of defining "racial" judaism, but it was certainly flexible enough to allow them to use it to remove anyone that was inconvenient.

So for your father in law judgement came to his physical appearance. (the hair.)

in that case, on that day. the guy was in a good mood. often enough the reverse would be true and someone would be shot out of hand, beaten to death or "selected" (ie for execution) on an official or guard's whim.

Interesting, so say a non jewish person who had a rather large nose.... He could be in danger of been stereotyped as a jew? And Risking death.... Just from appearance?

decidedly. that's the nature of prejudice - it doesn't have to make sense, except in the bigot's own internal world.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Shergar]

I am just asking questions. *shrugs*

A very dangerous thing to do, it would appear. With the kind of venom you get it makes you wonder what the world would be like if Jews had a majority. Oh..... wait a minute....we can see. Gaza!
They have started a vigilante police force in parts of London now. Tomorrow the world!!

 

[bananabrain]

sorry - are you accusing the jewish people of something, shergar? venom? for getting irritated that someone can't be arsed to read a bit of history rather than making flippant comments about genocide? or have you decided to call me as an elder of zion or something? and bringing gaza into it? why, are you planning to fire rockets at my house, or send suicide bombers into my neighbourhood?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[17th Angel]

Shergar :/ They had a unique tragedy.

 

[Dream]

Most of the time stereotypes about Jews come from a reading of the NT, and to a large extent the responsibility lies with Christians to correct those stereotypes. The real enemy in the NT is the organizations of the day and the way that things were being done. The gospel writers concentrated on faults in order to point out the need for improvement. It is not supposed to summarize what Jews are 'Like', so its very bad that it often is taken for that use for which it is completely unsuitable! That accounts for probably 60% of the current stereotyping -- more if you factor in its indirect influence upon other religions.

I will answer the unasked question "Why don't Christians know these things?" The gospels are written assuming that Christians already know about Judaism, so when Christians do not know about it the gospels are partly emptied. They simply aren't meant as a general introduction to Judaism (or Christianity either). If they were, then we wouldn't be having this issue.

What does it have to do with the WWII question? Mostly it is background information. It is also partly to put the blame, about 60%, where it goes. That is important. It is important to understand what causes what in order to keep out a sense of general paranoia. Blame is important when it comes to genocide. How did it happen? How do we prevent it happening again?

 

[Marsh]

A very dangerous thing to do, it would appear. With the kind of venom you get it makes you wonder what the world would be like if Jews had a majority. Oh..... wait a minute....we can see. Gaza!

I sincerely hope you're not comparing the situation in Gaza to the situation in Europe during the Holocaust. A bit alarmist, no?

Several times people have said or implied that the Jews have made the Holocaust into something bigger than it actually was. I don't agree, but assuming for a moment that they have, then how much more the people who compare Israel's harshness with the Palestinians to the Holocaust?

I agree that the bulldozing of city blocks and air strikes that cause collateral damage by the dozens of bodies is cruel, but it's by no stretch of the imagination as significant as the Holocaust was. There's a big difference between dropping a bomb on Gaza city knowing that civilians will be killed, and purging Gaza city of it's Muslims, interning them into camps, systematically murdering those who can't work and working those who can to death.

I see a distinction, anyways.

 

[17th Angel]

I agree that the bulldozing of city blocks

That many times still have people in them.

 

[nativeastral]

Shergar :/ They had a unique tragedy.

All genocides are uniquely tragic but this ''burnt offering' especially so to be remembered [today], and never forgotten - attached as it is to an already horrific WWII and with Christianity implicated [as an 'enlightened' western worldview that hadn't 'forgiven' the jews for not accepting you know who].

Of course now we have international laws governing behaviour during wars but who takes heed of that? Alls fair in love and war and all that baloney.

 

[Marsh]

That many times still have people in them.

I doubt that very much, not on the grounds that the Israeli army (or any army) would be kind enough to wait for the Palestinians to vacate the buildings, but on the premise that any Palestinian (or anyone) would be dumb enough to wait for the bulldozers, and not get out. It's not like a bulldozer is a stealth piece of equipment.