The Tantalising Cleverness of the Bible

[martynarthur]

Imagine that the Creator had enabled the production of religious records, the bible for example, that were historically accurate so as it was possible to confirm events therein by reference to demonstrable historical facts. The final resting place of the Arc identified so a to be verifiable perhaps, the location of the Garden of Eden firmly pointed to and its existence confirmed, and Genesis 1writen such that events could be tangibly related to our scientific “knowledge” of historical events leading to the creation of the Solar System.

Moving on from Genesis to the New Testament what if the occurrence of miracles could be proven, that Jesus could be demonstrated to be who and what he was claimed to have been, what then for human kind?

Ostensibly there might be significant benefits in certainty. However the inevitable question would be what’s the point of toiling within life when I can simple end it all in the clear knowledge of what comes next? At which point human life becomes an unnecessary burden.

Contradictorily therefore, the uncertainty afforded by the very nature of dogmas is a clear indictor of their validity and their tantalising cleverness.
Martyn Arthur

 

[wil]

Contradictorily therefore, the uncertainty afforded by the very nature of dogmas is a clear indictor of their validity and their tantalising cleverness.
Martyn Arthur

Namaste Marty,

So if I'm reading this correctly the numerous contradictions are actually amazingly proof that it is all true?

A lovely argument I must say.

Sort of like the Chinese proverb that indicates if it rains during your planned outdoor celebration that is the gods indicating their approval...can't go wrong...sunny day, great party...rainy day...the gods have smiled on our affair...

 

[Paladin]

Yes a seemingly neat little bulletproof argument, If you don't look too closely

 

[citizenzen]

Contradictorily therefore, the uncertainty afforded by the very nature of dogmas is a clear indictor of their validity and their tantalising cleverness.

The more they're wrong, the more they're right!

Goodness, that is brilliant!

 

[shawn]

-----------------

 

[martynarthur]

i am not describing anything in the bible as inaccurate...or even questioning its accuracy...it i a simple fact that the comparison between hisstory and the bible does create uncertainty...and human nature being what it is....if there was the "absolute" certainty of paradise to follow...to what extent would mankind simply opt out of this existence?
martyn arthur

 

[wil]

I think the same extent as there has always been. It is the fringe that feels a need to martyr themselves to hurry along the process. Early Christians headed to the lions for the same reasons radical suicide bombers do today...because somebody embedded in their mind that this act would be seen as faithful in G!d's eyes.

I say most of us believers would understand that we were put in 3d for a reason...that there ain't no shortcuts....and the inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the bible are an issue of a collection of man's writings being deemed sacred.

 

[Paladin]

Ironically the certitude being spoken about already exists. Just ask any of the Talibangelists about it, they will undoubtedly and at length explain why it's all true. In addition, their behavior reflects this certitude by opting out of the desire to enjoy the kindness and equanimity that is a priori in the human species.

 

[martynarthur]

interesting responses..i see it is a case therefore that...in a general sense those who "believe" on the basis of faith alone do not require any further "evidene" so only those who are on the pheriphory would be attracted to further evidence

 

[citizenzen]

...in a general sense those who "believe" on the basis of faith alone do not require any further "evidene" so only those who are on the pheriphory would be attracted to further evidence

Isn't that usually the case?

Those who believe based on faith alone — by definition — do not have any evidence. Please note those words, "by faith alone". But very few people are satisfied by faith alone. Most everyone seeks evidence of one sort or another.

For instance in another thread here at IO, one member is using maps and the locations of the capitals of Europe to build his case. People who study Intelligent Design certainly aren't relying on faith alone. Even people who look to the Bible seek corroboration for what is in their hearts.

 

[Mohsen]

My name is Mohsen, and I would like to expose the dark and mysterious sides of religion.. I really don't attempt to offend anyone with my belief system...
So, I was born and grew up in Islamic country ( Bahrain ) to Muslim parents surrounded by a religious father ... Throughout my life, I considered myself to be a Muslim, and I maintained a large arsenal of uninformed apologies, explanations, and blind denials to promote and defend Islam. I had relied exclusively on what I heard from my Father,, my relatives, my Muslim friends, and the Islamic media. As a Muslim I vigorously denied the existence of thousands of Gods claimed by other religions, but I was irritated when someone denied the existence of my God. I had an emotional attachment to my belief. My beliefs are now based on logic and reasoning and not emotional feelings.

As living in an Islamic society, I was mindlessly and blindly in demand to pray and worship mysterious God!!!
Well, I was a victim like millions of other Muslims who've been brain washed. By false promises and exaggeration Claim. I have recently found out that I was so gullible who believed some myths, and have known that religion been created by some religious and political to control people and keep them in line .they knew that the best idea to control primitive people was to surround them by religion. To convince them that God had given them some commandments. it's obvious that religion is viciously oppressive ideology that stifles progress and individual freedoms....on the one hand, God is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, all-wise, and on the other hand he is savage, brutal. God of extermination, genocide, assassination, Murder, hate, terror, torture, brutality, slavery and rape.

It's extremely confusing to people who are looking for the right path. Hard for them to get rid and cut off the seed of the false dogma that were planted in their minds, and been passed from generation to generation. I myself emancipated my mind, cleared my head and eradicated the false and filthy dogma that contaminated my mind, my head, and my whole life,,,
Finally I could escape from the tyranny of Islam, and now I can see with total clarity that religion is myth and bull****!!!


Each claims that their religion is celestial ( From God!!!), But after going through most of religions. I found out that in Islam, Christianity (Old testimony) and the book of mormon. God is the most violent, repulsive, savage and brutal, creator ever imagined by mankind. He is homicidal maniac, who easily tells as to kill people who don’t believe in him? Anyone who blasphemes the name of the GOD must be put to death, and after that he has a place called” HELL”!! Full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ‘til the end of time!


How would a loving God burn people in hell forever simply because they disagree with his rules???? I myself don’t worship this strange God…I really don’t consider him as a loving God plus his not perfect… He demands to kill who doesn't believe in him. He is so devilish and spooky Creator. Just read the history to realize that he is one of the leading causes of killing and destruction. Yeah!! This is the truth. Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews, all taking turns killing each other and that because religion told them it was a good idea. The sword of God, the blood of the land, vengeance is mine!!!

Mohsen

 

[citizenzen]

My name is Mohsen...

Welcome to IO and atheism Mohsen.

I'm not going to disagree with your assessment of religion, but I will argue that it has been a positive influence for many people.

We're all finding our place. I'm glad you gained some insight into yours.

 

[wil]

interesting responses..i see it is a case therefore that...in a general sense those who "believe" on the basis of faith alone do not require any further "evidene" so only those who are on the pheriphory would be attracted to further evidence

to me, if they didn't need any more evidence, then they wouldn't have such convuluted solutions as to why there are two versions of creation, or how the curtain was torn before in one story and after in another, or how Paul couldn't figure out which road he was on...

While it is just clear these are mistakes of man, and the scribes and memories...the apologists want to stick to the innerant thing and start a dance...but it justs digs the hole deeper.

Acceptance is soooo much easier, and so much more freeing, allowing belief to grow rather than be so constrained.

 

[Dondi]

How would a loving God burn people in hell forever simply because they disagree with his rules???? I myself don’t worship this strange God…I really don’t consider him as a loving God plus his not perfect… He demands to kill who doesn't believe in him. He is so devilish and spooky Creator. Just read the history to realize that he is one of the leading causes of killing and destruction. Yeah!! This is the truth. Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews, all taking turns killing each other and that because religion told them it was a good idea. The sword of God, the blood of the land, vengeance is mine!!!

There are some of us Christians who believe that hell is remedial. That one doesn't spend all eternity there, but that a purfication process takes place to draw one toward righteousness (fair togetherness) with God. A sort of purgatory.

Honest Questions and Answers about Hell

 

[The Undecided]

My name is Mohsen, and I would like to expose the dark and mysterious sides of religion.. I really don't attempt to offend anyone with my belief system...
So, I was born and grew up in Islamic country ( Bahrain ) to Muslim parents surrounded by a religious father ... Throughout my life, I considered myself to be a Muslim, and I maintained a large arsenal of uninformed apologies, explanations, and blind denials to promote and defend Islam. I had relied exclusively on what I heard from my Father,, my relatives, my Muslim friends, and the Islamic media. As a Muslim I vigorously denied the existence of thousands of Gods claimed by other religions, but I was irritated when someone denied the existence of my God. I had an emotional attachment to my belief. My beliefs are now based on logic and reasoning and not emotional feelings.

As living in an Islamic society, I was mindlessly and blindly in demand to pray and worship mysterious God!!!
Well, I was a victim like millions of other Muslims who've been brain washed. By false promises and exaggeration Claim. I have recently found out that I was so gullible who believed some myths, and have known that religion been created by some religious and political to control people and keep them in line .they knew that the best idea to control primitive people was to surround them by religion. To convince them that God had given them some commandments. it's obvious that religion is viciously oppressive ideology that stifles progress and individual freedoms....on the one hand, God is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, all-wise, and on the other hand he is savage, brutal. God of extermination, genocide, assassination, Murder, hate, terror, torture, brutality, slavery and rape.

It's extremely confusing to people who are looking for the right path. Hard for them to get rid and cut off the seed of the false dogma that were planted in their minds, and been passed from generation to generation. I myself emancipated my mind, cleared my head and eradicated the false and filthy dogma that contaminated my mind, my head, and my whole life,,,
Finally I could escape from the tyranny of Islam, and now I can see with total clarity that religion is myth and bull****!!!


Each claims that their religion is celestial ( From God!!!), But after going through most of religions. I found out that in Islam, Christianity (Old testimony) and the book of mormon. God is the most violent, repulsive, savage and brutal, creator ever imagined by mankind. He is homicidal maniac, who easily tells as to kill people who don’t believe in him? Anyone who blasphemes the name of the GOD must be put to death, and after that he has a place called” HELL”!! Full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ‘til the end of time!


How would a loving God burn people in hell forever simply because they disagree with his rules???? I myself don’t worship this strange God…I really don’t consider him as a loving God plus his not perfect… He demands to kill who doesn't believe in him. He is so devilish and spooky Creator. Just read the history to realize that he is one of the leading causes of killing and destruction. Yeah!! This is the truth. Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews, all taking turns killing each other and that because religion told them it was a good idea. The sword of God, the blood of the land, vengeance is mine!!!

Mohsen

I can tell that you are angry and disillusioned by religion, but I would argue that this is because of how you were taught about religion rather what you were taught. It is true that some individuals within any religions are quite dogmatic, but it is the people that perhaps you should be angry at not the religion itself. It really does depend on what we take from religion, as to how helpful it is to us. There are so many similarities between religions that I think that these similarities are more like universal truths, the law of karma in Buddhism and 'You Reap What You Sow' in Christianity, for example. Also, religion is not religion when it divides people, it is dogma. I feel that religion can be a way of living that can help make you a better person, and should be thoroughly tested in reality using logic and reason. Some Muslims would say that this is a necessity of being a Muslim, Buddhists say the same. In fact Buddhism says that if something doesn't make your life better and yourself happier over a long period of time, then it doesn't work. If so then try something else. Buddhism recommends that you do this with it's own teachings too. It sounds like you need some time away from religion for a while and then to revisit it when you feel less raw about it, perhaps through a spiritual teacher or widely respected Imam. I used to be an atheist and now I'm quite a spiritual person. Having a faith can set you free, but this needs to be a personal choice rather than received dogma. Feel free to disagree with what I have said, it is just what I think based on my own experiences and spiritual journey.

The Undecided.

 

[wil]

Namaste and welcome Moshen,

Ah questioning, thinking, contemplating...I love that!

My name is Mohsen...

...How would a loving God burn people in hell forever simply because they disagree with his rules????....

I also don't believe in that G!d, but also do believe as you said these type of things were added to govern and control. It helps when the power you refer to is invisible and then you conveniently implicate said power when someone has some infliction or calamity...'see...see! you better be good'

But I believe as you that is not how it is.

It sounds like you need some time away from religion for a while and then to revisit it when you feel less raw about it, perhaps through a spiritual teacher or widely respected Imam. I used to be an atheist and now I'm quite a spiritual person..

Quite nice advice. Don't beat your religion up too much...in time you may return to it from a different angle and understanding.

 

[Jenn]

Quite nice advice. Don't beat your religion up too much...in time you may return to it from a different angle and understanding.

Mmm, I've been experiencing that in the past six months or so and it's been an odd feeling. After I managed to wrangle myself away from the dogma and viewpoints of my childhood's fundamentalist Christianity and went on a more animistic pagan earth-centred path, it's given me enough time to heal and in some ways disassociate from the old indoctrinations and approach other forms of Christianity afresh.

My step-father's family is Catholic, something that my fundamental Baptist rearing made into the devil incarnate. But it has been particularly meaningful to me to attend eucharist, and join in the service ... and although in many ways I do not agree at surface value with what is being said, I can now see deeper truths and meanings hiding there that I was closed to before.

For example, on Sunday we went to the Epiphany mass, so the whole service focused on the wisemen of the Christmas story. As the appropriate Bible passages were being read, from someplace deeper I began to perceive a more symbolic interpretation ... the star of Bethlehem is our soul, our inherent radiance or life, and if we are wise and watchful (like the magi), then we too will follow it, no matter where it takes us, especially in times of darkness (like the "dark night of the soul") until we can bring gifts to the divine child (not sure what to equate this to--our inner deity? our inner Christ, but in infant immature form?).

I got *so* much meaning from that church service, as much as I can get from Friends' meeting or a Druid ritual or a Zen meditation session.

............. As for the "cleverness of the Bible", there are always multiple arguments and research projects out there trying to validate the Bible. In fact, at one point there was a whole type of historian who was dedicated to "proving" the Bible as totally true.

But most arguments for the Bible's cleverness or validity or its literal inspiration are circular. I think it is almost impossible to rationally argue matters of faith, because faith is not something from the head but the heart. Unfortunately, I think for many faith dwells in the realm of the pre-rational ... it is infantile, immature and literalistic.

Then I would say that there is a trans-rational faith, which has undergone the rigours and challenges of the rational mind and has actually moved beyond, or transcended but also can still include rational thought. It is not opposed to, but works with our human logic, and in this way, we can begin to gain new thoughts and insights because that trans-rational faith takes our minds to new places.

Just some thoughts

 

[wil]

I've come to realize that everyone is currently where they need to be. That being said, they may wander and then wander back....or wander away...we all grow in our time in the wilderness because sometimes the wilderness is just what we need.

The whole is not easy to grasp from within, and within isn't easy to grasp from without. But the value of the journey in our youth is no less valuable than the journey today.

 

[The Undecided]

I've come to realize that everyone is currently where they need to be. That being said, they may wander and then wander back....or wander away...we all grow in our time in the wilderness because sometimes the wilderness is just what we need.

The whole is not easy to grasp from within, and within isn't easy to grasp from without. But the value of the journey in our youth is no less valuable than the journey today.

Wil,

I agree, sometimes we need to go on a walkabout and then come back again to understand ourselves better, and then the world around us too.

The Undecided.

 

[martynarthur]

thank you for your responses..maybe my questions are misplaced....

i just thought that that the strength of scientific evidence points towards the inevitability of a form of divine creation regardless / in addition to the strength of peronal conviction....my thoughts were whether it might be possible to explore things other than the norm of personal conviction and belief at a more scientific human level
thank you all