Behind the burka

[Dogbrain]

According to the Bible, women are to wear head coverings in public

That's a misinterpretation. To quote St. Paul, who is the only Scriptural Christian authority on this subject: "if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head". In other words, if it is not a disgrace for her to have her hair cut, then she need not cover her head. It is not a disgrace in many cultures for a woman to have her hair cut, therefore, in those cultures, there is no mandatory necessity for her to cover her head at all times.

Christians are expected to abide by the biblical laws too (Mosaic laws which Muslims view as the laws Christians are expected to follow, too, according to the NT we have).

Your New Testament is false. Let me offer you a deal. If you lot get to dictate what is in the "new testament" for Christians for your legal purposes, then WE get to dictate our own version of the "koran" for OUR legal purposes. It's only fair and just, after all.

Regarding Old Testament requirements, refer to the book of Acts: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell."

 

[iBrian]

Exactly, and one facet of being truly secular and democratic is to protect the rights of the minorities and allowing them the freedom to practice their beliefs.

But not where these beliefs are seen to undermine the protected rights of the individual in said democracy.

Demanding women hide themselves is seen to work against the very foundation of equality that so many campaigned for over the 20th century, because it is perceived to denigrate women to the status of property. Similar for forced marriages, which are also being challenged.

The US has a more liberal stance on the issue, not least as demonstrated by the Ku Klux Klan and Nambla. But in Europe, we have too much real experience of allowing small transgressions to explode into larger issues, not least facism..

 

[Sam Albion]

Honestly... all this "women should not provoke men" stuff- it's bloody shocking. I infer from this then, that Muslim women who wear the full veil are never... sexually assaulted, raped, never sexually abused as girls.... and all the women who do get raped deserve NO sympathy whatsoever because, hey, they're slags, and they deserve it -- they tempted men with their exposed legs and shoulders...

With talk like that you're providing men with an excuse, AND you're colluding with men, yourself, to entrap yourselves. Thanks, girls. It doesn't matter what you wear- a woman never deserves to be raped. If your men cannot control their lusts they should be locked away in institutions, not prowling civilised streets looking for uncovered slags to rape...

Now, instead, of feeling tolerant of Muslims, and their rights, now... well... if that's the ****e you come out with- up yours. If you think I deserve to be raped for being immodest and not covering myself up in that ghastly, opressive garb -- **** you, collectively...

 

[Muslimwoman]

But not where these beliefs are seen to undermine the protected rights of the individual in said democracy.

Demanding women hide themselves is seen to work against the very foundation of equality that so many campaigned for over the 20th century, because it is perceived to denigrate women to the status of property. Similar for forced marriages, which are also being challenged.

I agree with you Brian, where women are forced to wear burka.

The problem is we have a catch 22. If a woman chooses to cover herself or wear burka we cannot decide it is denigrating because it was her choice and telling her she cannot wear it takes away her rights to dress as she pleases and her freedom to express how she interprets her religious duties .. again something we campaigned for in our free society.

It's a rock and hard place I'm afraid, we either have to decide these women live in a democracy so have the same rights as all women here in choosing their clothing and religious beliefs or we have to decide we do not live in a democracy and all women must dress as the state dictates (ie what we perceive to be acceptable in our society).

Honestly... all this "women should not provoke men" stuff- it's bloody shocking.

Hi Sam welcome to the forum. So what if a woman chooses to dress this way because she deems it a modest way of dressing and she belives she is following the instructions of God? Should be derided as you are doing? Is her choice any less valid than yours?

 

[iBrian]

The catch 22 isn't so clear - it is interpreted as a cultural expectation for a woman to wear coverings. Just as it is a cultural expectation for a woman to expect an arranged marriage. In both instances, is the woman really making a personal choice, or simply following what the men around effectively dictate?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW,

I'm sorry, but I cannot accept the idea that a woman's staying completely covered from head to foot (except for two tiny eye-slits) is a form of healthy modesty, nor can I accept the idea that 'God' would 'instruct' her to dress that way (even if she felt she had received such divinely-transmitted instruction).

If muslim men really think such dress is a form of 'healthy modesty,' then they must adopt it immediately. It is true that women desire men less in a carnal way than men desire women, but a small number of women do, so muslim men must be willing to stop ALL temptations to carnal desire if they see it as such a danger.

Nor can I accept the idea that to dress in such a way is mentally healthy for any woman.

People are not free to do whatever they want in our culture. For example, they are not free to committ suicide, nor are they allowed to murder other people in order to put them out of their misery, for the same reasons that I believe justify us in saying the above-mentioned dress is wrong.

 

[Muslimwoman]

The catch 22 isn't so clear - it is interpreted as a cultural expectation for a woman to wear coverings. Just as it is a cultural expectation for a woman to expect an arranged marriage. In both instances, is the woman really making a personal choice, or simply following what the men around effectively dictate?

Sorry I can't agree ... I have spoken many times about my husbands niece, who chose to wear niqab against her families wishes. My two sisters in law also chose to wear niqab .. as did I. I do not have their cultural upbringing but I can assure you their choices were not made to please men or the village.

Of course some women are forced to dress this way, either physically forced or through peer pressure and I do not accept it but to ban it based on it being denigrating is simply ludicrous and I believe goes against the principles of democracy.

If muslim men really think such dress is a form of 'healthy modesty,' then they must adopt it immediately.

Hi Nick

Muslim men do have a modest dress code. Of course you get your men who dress in western clothes and insist their wives/sisters dress Islamically but that's guys for you lol.

It is true that women desire men less in a carnal way than men desire women, but a small number of women do, so muslim men must be willing to stop ALL temptations to carnal desire if they see it as such a danger.

But women who do lust after men are seen by most Muslim men as unattractive and morally bankrupt, so they are a non-issue in Muslim society.

Nor can I accept the idea that to dress in such a way is mentally healthy for any woman.

I found it very liberating and more mentally healthy (gosh is that even English? Sorry very tired) than the way I am expected to dress/behave in my home country.

People are not free to do whatever they want in our culture. For example, they are not free to committ suicide, nor are they allowed to murder other people in order to put them out of their misery, for the same reasons that I believe justify us in saying the above-mentioned dress is wrong.

No we are not free to do whatever we like, we set moral boundaries and acceptable forms of behaviour. As a secular and democratic society we decided that people have the right to dress as they please provided nudity is not their chosen dress code (although we do allow areas where nudity is permitted). We also decided that freedom of faith was a principle of our society. How can we now decide that these are our principles but they are for us and not this group or that group of our society?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW,

You said,

"Muslim men do have a modest dress code."

--> I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

"But women who do lust after men are seen by most Muslim men as unattractive and morally bankrupt, so they are a non-issue in Muslim society."

--> So these women become throw-aways in Muslim society? If so, I cannot accept this aspect of Muslim society.

"Nor can I accept the idea that to dress in such a way is mentally healthy for any woman. --> I found it very liberating and more mentally healthy."

--> This is a huge difference in our value systems. I'm sorry, I do not accept your opinion as valid.

"How can we now decide that these are our principles but they are for us and not this group or that group of our society?"

--> The issue here is mental health vs. freedom of religion. Eveyone must decide which is more important. I say the first is more important. You say the second is more important. This is the essential difference between you and I. Also, you seem unwilling to admit that there are women who are being mentally damaged by wearing burkas/niqabs and they are unaware that this is happening to them.

A burka is an outfit with eye-slits and a niqab is an outfit with a mesh 'faceplate,' is that right?

 

[Dogbrain]

The catch 22 isn't so clear - it is interpreted as a cultural expectation for a woman to wear coverings. Just as it is a cultural expectation for a woman to expect an arranged marriage. In both instances, is the woman really making a personal choice, or simply following what the men around effectively dictate?

Do you freely choose every single thing you do without any influence at all from cultural expectations?

 

[bananabrain]

As a secular and democratic society we decided that people have the right to dress as they please provided nudity is not their chosen dress code (although we do allow areas where nudity is permitted).

that's not much different from what i'm proposing - there are areas, i suggest, where niqab is permitted and areas where it's prohibited. then we're just haggling over where. at the moment i'd say yes, in a mosque, islamic shop or cultural centre, but no in a school or a bank, for reasons recently outlined on the other thread.

women who do lust after men are seen by most Muslim men as unattractive and morally bankrupt, so they are a non-issue in Muslim society

no, they're not a non-issue. they're a suppressed, very serious issue. this is an example of a society systematically eliminating female sexuality from public space and discourse; you only have to read about what goes on in saudi under the niqab to realise what a counterproductive and, essentially, anti-islamic strategy this is. remember the victorians and their table-leg covers? well, at the time that whole thing resulted in a horrible picture of sexual exploitation outside "polite society" and you'll see exactly the same thing in islamic societies as you know very well. all this is is neurosis - and i'd say the same for judaism (other than the fact that womens' desire is explicitly catered for in the halakhah within the usual limits) , some parts of society have their nutty obsessions with "tzniut" (modesty) which go beyond stupidity in their stringency, with the same predictable results - high clandestine use of prostitutes and illicit same-sex relationships - many of which are exploitative or abusive given the power that ends up in the hands of male teachers. don't tell me this isn't the same in parts of islamic society. i hear the same denial-based wishful-thinking dawa/kiruv arguments and lack of open social research.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[c0de]

.


sorry 4 the late response, forgot all about this thread

But not where these beliefs are seen to undermine the protected rights of the individual in said democracy.

Demanding women hide themselves is seen to work against the very foundation of equality that so many campaigned for over the 20th century

If you are defending rights,
then the option to cover OR not to cover
is the same thing.

 

[Muslimwoman]

So these women become throw-aways in Muslim society? If so, I cannot accept this aspect of Muslim society.

Hi Nick

So the words sluts/slappers/whores/tarts/etc do not exist in our society?

I would bet if I go out in the street tomorrow and ask young men if they would spend a night with the local slut they would all say yes .. if i then asked if they would marry or date her regularly I bet they would say no.

The only difference between our societies is the degree of what is deemed to be slutty behaviour.

This is a huge difference in our value systems. I'm sorry, I do not accept your opinion as valid.

ROFL .. so would I be fair to say your opinions based on your life experiences are not valid, even though I have not had the same experiences?

I was watching tribal wives last night. The tribe was from the Masi region of Africa and one of their customs was a ritual dance where girls would dance into a frenzy and then beg men to whip them with sticks .... their backs were actually bleeding. Of course you and I would say it is crazy and unhealthy but we cannot invalidate their views simply because we neither understand or accept them. The women were so proud of this ritual and to take it away from them because we don't accept it would be far more damaging to them in my opinion.

--> The issue here is mental health vs. freedom of religion. Eveyone must decide which is more important. I say the first is more important. You say the second is more important.

Well first let's find some concrete evidence that choosing to dress this way is mentally unhealthy. Have you seen any studies which talk to women who chose to wear niqab or burka and show this has damaged them mentally? Or are you just making assumptions based on your view of the world?

Also, you seem unwilling to admit that there are women who are being mentally damaged by wearing burkas/niqabs and they are unaware that this is happening to them.

Don't be silly, I have said repeatedly that women must have the choice. If women are forced to dress this way, eg under the Taliban, then we can safely assume it is unhealthy because anything we are forced to do leaves mantal scars.

A burka is an outfit with eye-slits and a niqab is an outfit with a mesh 'faceplate,' is that right?

There are many names for each type of dress. The burka is most known to us as the blue outer clothing worn in Afghanistan. The niqab is the face veil with eye slit, usually worn over humar or jilbab (large cloak).

that's not much different from what i'm proposing - there are areas, i suggest, where niqab is permitted and areas where it's prohibited. then we're just haggling over where. at the moment i'd say yes, in a mosque, islamic shop or cultural centre, but no in a school or a bank, for reasons recently outlined on the other thread.

I agree with you BB that niqab in a bank/airport/government building is not appropriate. I would also agree that teachers in a secular school should not wear niqab but I wouldn't agree to an outright ban in public places, it means women in niqab cannot shop/seek medical assistance/go to a solicitor/etc. We saw in Italy how the law is being interpreted, the woman was walking to mosque near a shcool .. that's when it becomes silly.

no, they're not a non-issue. they're a suppressed, very serious issue. this is an example of a society systematically eliminating female sexuality from public space and discourse;

That isn't what I was talking about. I was saying that most Muslim men are simply not attracted to such women, as their behaviour puts the men off.

An example, my hubby and I were in a market locally, where he had made some male friends. I went off to shop and came back. One of his friends told me my hubby was a perv and had been lusting after a young girl. I asked which girl and he pointed out a great looking, thin, 25ish woman in tight jeans and a low cut top ... I just laughed, knowing fine well my hubby wouldn't fancy her if she was the last woman on earth. His friend had simply picked out a girl who would be seen by most as very attractive in our society but didn't realise this is not considered attractive in my hubby's culture. Had she been wearing hijab or niqab I could have believed it.

Sexuality is eliminated from all Muslim society, not just through females, hence the lack of public displays of affection between husbands and wives.

That said of course it goes on ... I was appalled when some young friends of hubby back in Egypt asked if they could use our apartment to bring a girl to and said hubby could join in if he wanted Their thought was because I am European I would accept it ... hubby told them where to go and broke his friendship with them. These girls tend to be ones who have been rejected by their family and basically they have to turn to prostitution.

There is very much a "do as I say not as I do" aspect to arab society but it's cultural more than religious .. as Islamically both men and women must remain virgins until marriage and even Mrs Palm and her five lovely daughters is out of bounds. A man who is a slut brings shame to his family but once he straightens up and gets married it's forgotten and he is forgiven .. a girl in this situation is simply rejected and nothing will make her family forgive or accept her again. Pretty much as it was here until my mothers generation.

Women's desire is catered for in Islam as well, through marriage. As you know we have hadith saying a husband should not leave the bed until his wife is satisfied and womens desire is not considered shameful within a marriage, its positively encouraged.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi MW,

You said,

"The only difference between our societies is the degree of what is deemed to be slutty behaviour."

--> No, the difference is that women who lust after men are a non-issue in Muslim society, but they are very much an issue in western society. Surprisingly, Muslim society seems unwilling to provide support for these women (while western society is). As a matter of fact, I happen to provide such services to such women. (Are you saying I would be scorned for providing such services in your country?)

"…would I be fair to say your opinions based on your life experiences are not valid, even though I have not had the same experiences?"

--> Yes, you would. For example, I believe in reincarnation and I think you do not. If you say the idea of reincarnation is not valid, I respect your right to say that. But when you say that reincarnation is stupid, then you have crossed the line of decency. The question here is how much can we show dismay at another person’s belief system before we stop showing respect for that belief system (and that person).

"Of course you and I would say it is crazy and unhealthy but we cannot invalidate their views simply because we neither understand or accept them."

--> To me, to say these ideas are crazy and invalid is the same thing. But I think saying they are crazy is being disrespectful while saying they are invalid is respectful. (But whether they have the right to practice such religious beliefs is an entirely different question. For example, no one has the right to practice human religious sacrifices, and some people say that no one has the right to practice animal religious sacrifices, although there may be people in the world who still feel justified in doing these things.)

"Have you seen any studies which talk to women who chose to wear niqab or burka and show this has damaged them mentally? Or are you just making assumptions based on your view of the world?"

--> I am making assumptions based on my view of the world. In comparison, we cannot allow adults to have sex with children just because we have no psychological studies that prove such sex damages the children psychologically. The same logic applies here to wearing niqabs and burkas.

"…you seem unwilling to admit that there are women who are being mentally damaged by wearing burkas/niqabs and they are unaware that this is happening to them. --> Don't be silly, I have said repeatedly that women must have the choice. If women are forced to dress this way, eg under the Taliban, then we can safely assume it is unhealthy because anything we are forced to do leaves mantal scars."

--> It is not a question of being damaged by being forced to wear one, it is not a question of choice, it is a question of maybe being mentally damaged by wearing burkas/niqabs voluntarily. All I am asking you to do is agree that such a possibility exists. (In my above statement, I should have said "…women who might be mentally damaged…")

 

[Dogbrain]

Hi Nick


The only difference between our societies is the degree of what is deemed to be slutty behaviour.

Therefore, according to this so-called "reasoning", there are NO executions in Muslim countries in response to "slutty behavior", right?

After all, if the ONLY difference is what is deemed to be slutty, and there are no executions in the USA for "slutty behavior", then there are no such executions in Muslim countries.

 

[Muslimwoman]

--> No, the difference is that women who lust after men are a non-issue in Muslim society, but they are very much an issue in western society. Surprisingly, Muslim society seems unwilling to provide support for these women (while western society is). As a matter of fact, I happen to provide such services to such women. (Are you saying I would be scorned for providing such services in your country?)

No I don't think you should be scorned for such services and there should be more emphasis on this in the ME. However in the UK we pay millions and millions a year to take care of people with drug habits but elderly people die every year because they are afraid to put the gas fire on due to the cost of heating ... I know which I would rather give my money to.

If a woman makes the choice to act like a tart why should society go out of it's way to care for her, when she knew her decision was taking her out of the realm of accepted public decency? If a woman in a Muslim country finds herself destitute she can go to a mosque for help or charities which are given a lot of money at the end of ramadan each year precicely to care for the needy in society, so there is really no need to turn to prostitution.

Of course there are always people who fall through the cracks and they must be cared for but that is a far cry from accepting their behaviour.

--> Yes, you would. For example, I believe in reincarnation and I think you do not. If you say the idea of reincarnation is not valid, I respect your right to say that. But when you say that reincarnation is stupid, then you have crossed the line of decency. The question here is how much can we show dismay at another person’s belief system before we stop showing respect for that belief system (and that person).

but I would never say your opinion of reincarnation is invalid, I may not agree with you or believe as you do but you have a right to your opinion based on your life experiences. To say an opinion is invalid is to say the opinion is null and void (ie not worth consideration).

--> I am making assumptions based on my view of the world. In comparison, we cannot allow adults to have sex with children just because we have no psychological studies that prove such sex damages the children psychologically. The same logic applies here to wearing niqabs and burkas.

but we have a mountain of evidence that suggests having sex with a child has psychological affects as the child grows up and begins to understand what happened to them.

--> It is not a question of being damaged by being forced to wear one, it is not a question of choice, it is a question of maybe being mentally damaged by wearing burkas/niqabs voluntarily. All I am asking you to do is agree that such a possibility exists. (In my above statement, I should have said "…women who might be mentally damaged…")

Well we could use the same argument about mini skirts/bikinis/jeans/baseball caps/etc. So yes I would agree the possibility exists, we are all to differing degrees psychologically affected by our choice of dress and peer pressure in making those choices.

 

[iBrian]

If a woman makes the choice to act like a tart why should society go out of it's way to care for her, when she knew her decision was taking her out of the realm of accepted public decency?

The trouble with this statement is you have created a strawman, that equates liberal sexual woman with prostitution. Plus you have already determined that dressing femine is against public decency.

 

[shawn]

No I don't think you should be scorned for such services and there should be more emphasis on this in the ME. However in the UK we pay millions and millions a year to take care of people with drug habits but elderly people die every year because they are afraid to put the gas fire on due to the cost of heating ... I know which I would rather give my money to.

So what about the elderly and such who have legal drug habits which do them no good, but are pushed on them by the pharma-pushers.
That cartel is no better than the mafia as they seek to exploit the elderly and the sick with their patent-medicines which are largely snake-oil and do them no good.
I see no difference between them and the heroin pushers.
Just because they have lobbied extensively to get public consent and legal status does not confer righteousness. They still are busy doing evil.
So what ultimately is the difference.........there is none.
(that being said the odd drunk or addict who has begged money from me in the past I would buy them a sandwich before giving them any cash though)

If a woman makes the choice to act like a tart why should society go out of it's way to care for her, when she knew her decision was taking her out of the realm of accepted public decency? If a woman in a Muslim country finds herself destitute she can go to a mosque for help or charities which are given a lot of money at the end of ramadan each year precicely to care for the needy in society, so there is really no need to turn to prostitution.

Of course there are always people who fall through the cracks and they must be cared for but that is a far cry from accepting their behaviour.

Why should society go out of its way????????????
Are you serious?
Society across the board...in fact people....everyone has defects of a variety of types, so to say well, we are better than them, those lowlifes...those scum, who make such morally bad choices which I do not do, does not mean thaty such people (from their high-horses) are really superior..they just have an arrogant attitude and are proud.
This is just as bad as being immoral.
Let he (or she) who is without sin cast the first stone.
Who then can cast any stones, as we all make mistakes....granted some make bigger mistakes than others, but we must help everyone as that shows true compassion and spiritual maturity.
Any other mode of judgment is arrogant and spiritually immature.
(granted, this is a big topic and I am speaking in generalities....just so you know)

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi MW,

You said,

"If a woman makes the choice to act like a tart why should society go out of it's way to care for her, when she knew her decision was taking her out of the realm of accepted public decency?"

--> There are two different issues here.

First, there are those women who ‘make the choice to act like a tart’ because they don’t have a choice, they have to in order to survive — they are supporting themselves as prostitutes. It is easy for us to have compassion for such a woman, and see the need for society to ‘go out of its way to care for her.’

"If a woman in a Muslim country finds herself destitute she can go to a mosque for help or charities which are given a lot of money at the end of ramadan each year precicely to care for the needy in society, so there is really no need to turn to prostitution."

--> I am glad to hear that. But we are talking about women who live in the west, not women who live in the Middle East.

Then there are those women who suffer extreme unhappiness because of an extreme need for attention, affection, etc., and will ‘dress up’ to attract a man’s attention. I feel that you are unfair to characterize such women as women who ‘decide to take themselves out of the realm of accepted public decency.’ Perhaps you not aware of the unhappiness and need for compassion that these women have? My belief system can be described in one word, "compassion," and I strive to feel as much compassion for these women as I can.

"…I would never say your opinion of reincarnation is invalid, I may not agree with you or believe as you do but you have a right to your opinion based on your life experiences. To say an opinion is invalid is to say the opinion is null and void (ie not worth consideration)."

--> You have brought up a very important point: what do we say when someone’s idea is absolutely unacceptable to us? Must we maintain politically correctness and say nothing more than, "You have a right to your opinion"? I do not think so. We must be free to say their ideas are unacceptable to us — and we are. But it is when we say their ideas are stupid, etc., that we cross the line. No, I do not think that saying someone’s idea is invalid crosses that line (although I can see why you would feel that way). It shows the minimum amount of respect they deserve, while at the same time telling him/her that I reject such an idea outright. (Do you agree?)

"…but we have a mountain of evidence that suggests having sex with a child has psychological affects as the child grows up and begins to understand what happened to them."

--> So the fact that we do not have such proof about niqabs proves them as not having an adverse psychological affect? That’s like saying the ground gets wet when it rains, the ground is not wet right now, so it proves it didn’t rain (an invalid use of logic).

"Well we could use the same argument about mini skirts/bikinis/jeans/baseball caps/etc."

--> (Wearing baseball caps causes psychologial damage? ha) I fully admit that there are women who are forced to wear bikinis by social pressure, and they hate wearing them. I have no problem admitting such a thing. (We now have a fascinating question of which is more psychologically damaging to a woman, wearing a bikini maybe 20 times a year, or hiding behind a veil each and every time a women goes out into public life for her entire adult life.)

"…yes I would agree the possibility exists…"

--> Thanks, I appreciate your acknowledgment. One of the big problems in these discussions (debates?) is the that each side is absolutely unwilling to see it from the other person’s viewpoint, at least to the point of acknowledging that the other person’s opinion might be valid. (I see this in marriage counseling all the time.) You and I have made important progress in Muslim/non-Muslim dialogue.

I also want to thank you for giving us this a window into your society.

 

[Muslimwoman]

The trouble with this statement is you have created a strawman, that equates liberal sexual woman with prostitution. Plus you have already determined that dressing femine is against public decency.

Brian we are talking about Muslim societies. Our society in the UK may have moved to acceptance of liberal sexual women over the past couple of decades but it doesn't mean every society has to agree with it. Certainly in the middle east if a girl starts sleeping around she would be deemed little better than a prostitute.

Why should society go out of its way????????????
Are you serious?

Yes I am serious. In Egypt a family will reject a daughter who chooses to sleep around. Should I charge in with my liberal banner and demand her rights to behave this way, even though it goes against her cultural and religious beliefs?

First, there are those women who ‘make the choice to act like a tart’ because they don’t have a choice, they have to in order to survive — they are supporting themselves as prostitutes. It is easy for us to have compassion for such a woman, and see the need for society to ‘go out of its way to care for her.’

Hi Nick

This is where Islam steps in. It should be rare for a woman to be destitute, the men in her family have responsibility for her throughout her life (so if she is divorced then her father or brother become responsible for her financially again until she remarries). If she has no family the zakat collected each year would be used to care for her and her children.

Of course this is the principle but in practice doesn't always work out this way.

--> I am glad to hear that. But we are talking about women who live in the west, not women who live in the Middle East.

I think we might be mixing threads up, I was talking about the ME, however mosques in the UK have the same duties as those in the ME.

Then there are those women who suffer extreme unhappiness because of an extreme need for attention, affection, etc., and will ‘dress up’ to attract a man’s attention.

That sounds rather like a personality disorder to me, which needs to be treated by professionals and not something society just needs to open up and accept.

--> We must be free to say their ideas are unacceptable to us — and we are.

Feel free to disagree or say my opinions/experiences are unacceptable to you, I have no problem with that. My problem comes with the use of the word invalid. I can't say to you that your opinion of China is null and void, therefore to be dismissed without a second thought. I may not agree with you or accept your ideas but they are yours and I may learn something from them.

--> So the fact that we do not have such proof about niqabs proves them as not having an adverse psychological affect? That’s like saying the ground gets wet when it rains, the ground is not wet right now, so it proves it didn’t rain (an invalid use of logic).

Not at all, it would be an interesting study and I would certainly read the results. My experience of wearing niqab and asking some very intrusive questions of other niqabi's suggests no such psychological damage happens but my contacts are limited to a certain society and I don't have the expertise to make such a study ... it's just my personal experience but as you have no such experience I find it strange that you would make such an assumption without even asking niqabi's about the experience.

--> (Wearing baseball caps causes psychologial damage? ha)

My point was simply that we have as much evidence that wearing niqab is psychologically damaging as we do that wearing baseball caps are ... zero. Unless we either try wearing a niqab/baseball cap or have a scientific study into it's affects we are only making huge assumptions.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi MW,
　
You said,
　
"My experience of wearing niqab and asking some very intrusive questions of other niqabi's suggests no such psychological damage happens but my contacts are limited to a certain society and I don't have the expertise to make such a study ... it's just my personal experience but as you have no such experience I find it strange that you would make such an assumption without even asking niqabi's about the experience."
　
--> I think the reason I have done it is because I believe that niqabis are suffering psychological damage that they are not even aware of.
　
"I think we might be mixing threads up, I was talking about the ME, however mosques in the UK have the same duties as those in the ME."
　
--> I agree that we may be mixing up threads. I am talking about all women in the world who wear niqab, regardless of where they live. (I do not think there is a big difference is in the psychological damage that niqabis suffer living in the west vs. living in the Middle East.
　
"Should I charge in with my liberal banner and demand her rights to behave this way, even though it goes against her cultural and religious beliefs?"
　
--> Yes, although it would be better to do it while standing on a street corner in front of your own house instead of invading her house and saying such things.
　
"…there are those women who suffer extreme unhappiness because of an extreme need for attention, affection, etc., and will ‘dress up’ to attract a man’s attention. --> That sounds rather like a personality disorder to me, which needs to be treated by professionals and not something society just needs to open up and accept."
　
--> Some people are slightly unhappy, others are somewhat unhappy, others are rather unhappy, and others are extremely unhappy. It is a huge sliding scale. There is a huge group of people between the two groups of 100% emotionally stable people and people with personality disorders.
　
I also disagree with the idea that society should refuse to accept such people. People with personality disorders have just as much right to live in our society as anyone else, and they have the right to be treated with a minimum amount of respect. I must say, I get the feeling that Islam feels it does not have to treat such people with a minimum of respect.
　
"My problem comes with the use of the word invalid."
　
--> I agree that the word invalid is distasteful. What word do you suggest we use instead, to describe ideas that we refuse to take into our own personal belief systems?
　
"My experience of wearing niqab and asking some very intrusive questions of other niqabi's suggests no such psychological damage happens…"
　
--> We have to keep in mind the goal of having this discussion. The goal here is for me to consider the idea that no psychological damage happens from wearing a niqab, and your goal here is to consider the idea that psychological damage does happen from wearing a niqab. I feel that both goals have been achieved, and this is a good thing.
　
"…I find it strange that you would make such an assumption without even asking niqabi's about the experience."
　
--> I guess it is because I am afraid that most niqabis are closed-minded about all of this, at it would only result in an argument. You are open-minded about all of this, and I am happy to see that.
　
"Unless we either try wearing a niqab/baseball cap or have a scientific study into it's affects we are only making huge assumptions."
　
--> I understand your point, and I agree that it is a 'huge' assumption. But you are implying that we should not be allowed to act on such assumptions. I disagree.