Behind the burka

I think someone posted above that sexual liberation involved the ability to say "yes" and "no" - and these rights are protected and respected to varying degrees.

What patriarchal societies are effectively doing is punishing the women for the sins of the men - ie, "men will do bad things, and if a man does a bad thing to a woman, the woman will be punished." Seems kind of counter-intuitive, doesn't it?

Hence let's chemically castrate men until they need to procreate and allow women to do wear what they want - no problem. :)
 
... a free, sexually open society would and does benefit society. Beyond what society and our cultures tell us, men and women are not that different. We are all exposed to the same images and themes and ideals and we experience the same types of arousal: men and women both hate, and love, and lust. If we were not conditioned, from childhood, to accept such distinct gender roles and accept the behaviours and attitudes that go with them then we would not have "bad mothers", and nor would we have "rapists".

Unfortunately, men are still perceived to be more powerful than women within wider society, socially, and financially, and in many instances this perception is correct.

Today I was reading a book about a young woman who escapes from the controlling misery of the FLDS. Raised in a polygamous household and taught her role (and that of men) from an early age, she eventually left the cult and became eductated and now lives a fulfilling life.

This girl knew no different. She did not go to school. There was no point- her many mothers and sisters and aunts taught her all she would ever need to know- how to cook, clean, and change nappies.

At 14 years old, the religious leader had a vision: she would marry! A little virgin, who had never been to school, read a magazine, watched TV. They made her a pink nightgown and married her off to an old man. On her wedding night she knew nothing about sex. But she still had to do it.

In fundamentalist Christian households the man is the authority, the woman the helper, his supporter. He works, in the world, and earns the money, and she sits at home, scrubbing and cleaning and dropping litters of children as if they were puppies. She defers to him. He makes the decisions, and she acepts his "rule".

Most religions do this: "good women" are: mothers, nuns, and virgins. "bad women" are those who don't listen to men/leaders/priests, they like sex, and they can think for themselves.

There is no bigger danger to patriarcal systems than women who consider themselves man's equal. Divide and rule is a very successful policy... but only if at least 50% of the people play.

Conversely, indoctrinating women is a very good way of ensuring more people adopt the faith -- they, after all, infect their children...

Regardless, in my opinion, any religion that states this inequality of the sexes is "God's plan", and any religion that states that gender roles must be so rigidly observed is:

1) behind the times
2) discriminatory
3) psychologically harmful to women.

oh, and I forgot to mention....

possibly illegal...

Islam says "Women must be protected"; hence covering themselves, and yet...

I don't see women being protected when they can't go to school (no point educating cattle), when they can't choose who to marry, are married off early, can't choose what to wear, and must succumb to conformity or risk... death, stoning, explusion from the family/the community/ a bad reputation.

And perhaps it isn't JUST a gender thing: when these behaviours occur in new religious movements we call these religions CULTS, we refer to this behaviour as negative, and we consider it psychologically damaging.

Forcing members to adopt distinctive or unusual dress means: a) the identify with the group more readily, and b) it means that they are made seperate from wider society.

What use is that to anyone, EXCEPT the people who want to control the power... ???
 
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men and women are not that different. We are all exposed to the same images and themes and ideals and we experience the same types of arousal:

Hi Sam

That is what we tell ourselves but science tells us differently. There was a scientific study in the UK recently on the effect of pornography on men. They had groups of volunteers and recorded their heart rate, brain patterns, etc while they watched various types of porn. Even among men they reacted very differently, some were very aroused by some images and some not aroused at all. I have no doubt groups of women would show the same degree of difference in results.

We are also only exposed to the same images, themes and ideals within the society we live and the education we receive.

Islam says "Women must be protected"; hence covering themselves, and yet...

I don't see women being protected when they can't go to school (no point educating cattle),

Islam states that all must be educated, men and women. So this is a cultural issue in certain areas not a religious one.

when they can't choose who to marry,

Islam states that a woman must consent to the marriage. Forced or arranged marriages are a cultural issue in certain areas.

are married off early,

We have kids here choosing to have babies at 10 and 11 years old, I think you would be damned lucky to find a 14 year old virgin in the UK who isn't from a traditional religious family. So surely the only difference is we do not allow sexually active youngsters to marry, even if they are ready to.

can't choose what to wear,

Who can't choose what to wear? Have you seen the range of clothes worn in the Arab world alone and they are less than 20% of Muslims worldwide.

and must succumb to conformity or risk... death, stoning,

An Islamic court can only issue a death penalty for intentional murder/terrorism/high treason/rape/piracy/adultery. I don't have a problem with the death penatly for any of them other than adultery but to be convicted of adultery under Islamic rules you would have to be doing it in the town square and men and women are subject to the same punishment.

Of course these rules are twisted and turned, usually to punish women, but again that is down to culture.

explusion from the family/the community/

again that is largely a cultural issue, if you look at honour killings no such thing exists in Islam and is haram but look at India where families of all religions consider tha family honour to be paramount.

a bad reputation.

Again I would ask, do we not have the words slut/whore/tart/trollop/slag/etc in our language? We have these words in our language because we use them to sully someone's reputation.

So all of these "Islamic" issues you pointed out are in fact, other than in one case, cultural issues and nothing to do with Islam.

Forcing members to adopt distinctive or unusual dress means: a) the identify with the group more readily, and b) it means that they are made seperate from wider society.

Unusual dress for who? And which wider society?

I am Muslim and dress in a certain way in Muslim countries. When I was returning to the Uk it was Islamic scholars who told me there was no harm in changing how I dress so I don't stand out from society, they actually recommended it. I am perfectly capable of dressing modestly here without having a neon sign saying LOOK MUSLIM OVER HERE.
 
Of course these rules are twisted and turned, usually to punish women, but again that is down to culture.

Hrm, so show me a country that formally adopted Muslim law and does not "twist and turn" in that fashion. That should silence all argument quite nicely. Just show some real world examples of how Muslim law is "properly" implemented.

After all, we live in the real world, not the world of how things are supposed to be done.
 
Hrm, so show me a country that formally adopted Muslim law and does not "twist and turn" in that fashion. That should silence all argument quite nicely. Just show some real world examples of how Muslim law is "properly" implemented.

You are asking the impossible, to name a country that had no pre-Islamic culture or or a country where Islam was spread without the influence of the Arab patriarchal system.

There are plenty of Muslim countries where their legal system is based on Sharia law or is interwined with French or British legal systems ... that's colonialism for you.

If we look at countries like Egypt and Jordan, both legal systems are based on Sharia and yet despite Islam allowing women to divorce both countries forbade women to apply for divorce until the last few years.

This is what I am talking about, these things are purely cultural. Is there a great Islamic state which demonstrates true Islamic values on earth today ... NO WAY and I don't believe there will be but that is not the fault of Islam or a testiment of Islamic teaching.
 
In fundamentalist Christian households the man is the authority, the woman the helper, his supporter. He works, in the world, and earns the money, and she sits at home, scrubbing and cleaning and dropping litters of children as if they were puppies. She defers to him. He makes the decisions, and she acepts his "rule".

Actually, that's false. I've seen many a fundamentalist Christian household in the USA where the woman has a job outside the home and major decisions are made by the couple, together.

This is in complete accord with Scripture, specifically Ephesians 5:22-33. I realize that there are fundamentalists out there who pretend that Ephesians 5:25-33 do not exist. So much the worse for them at the Final Judgment, when God asks these men if they loved their wives "just as Christ loved the church", "as their own bodies", and "as he [the man] loves himself"

I will be charitable and presume you simply do not know any better and choosing to hold up the loudest and the worst as the sole example of all that is possible within fundamentalist Christianity.

Couples that do live in full accord with Scripture tend not to trumpet how holy and righteous they are to the world, since Christ has stated rather plainly "Be careful not to do your acts of righteousness before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven"
 
You are asking the impossible, to name a country that had no pre-Islamic culture or or a country where Islam was spread without the influence of the Arab patriarchal system.

I see. So, you're saying, that Islam isn't much good when it comes to making a better world, or at least it's not at all better than any religion (or no religion at all). Funny how you keep using "better world" arguments in favor of Muslim dress and behavior codes for women (do I need to remind you of our "slut" postings?), but then turn around and say that it's all really just "cultural". You can't have it both ways and not be supremely dishonest.
 
MW,

What Dogbrain is saying is that it would be impossible to have an Islamic country without it turning into an Arab male patriarchal system. Do you disagree?
 
Salaam/hi--

I said earlier that I am for all people following the laws of the lands they live in. If they are minority and the laws are prohibiting their practice of their faiths, then I hope they could find a way to move.

But, some Westerners are really double faced when it comes to Muslims. These Westerners would want to strip the Muslim woman of her clothes she deems modest, because they believe her 'oppressed' even when the woman says it's her choice.

So, where is that western ideal then of "do what you will, just don't break any laws"? Where is the freedom of religion, speech, etc?

Muslims have different beliefs when it comes to modesty, why can't you respect that??
 
Muslim men are accused of 'lusting' after women, as women opressors and such. But, look who is actually lusting after women and who has made women sexual slaves.

You have porno industry booming in the West. Every magazine you see in stores has titles such as "his secret sex moves,' 'how to be a b***c,' 'new sex moves,' 'get a sexy body with these moves,' etc. Supermodels are easily starved away because of the 'ideal' body. Women are changing their bodies with breast, butt and whatever other implants to be more attractive. Men and women start sexual experience very young and usually have many sexual partners in their life time. Men won't look at a modestly dressed woman (even the non-Muslim women who choose to wear more modestly) but are looking to find 'sexy' ones. One night stands (sex) is very common and there is no Western non-Muslim that I know who did not have more than one of those.

So. Who is trully obsessed with sex?
I am not saying that covered Muslim women do not get assaulted, because they do. There are monsters in every society, from every culture and they should be severely punished.

But please. The only purpose you do not want to see a covered woman in the West is because it defies the sex-crazed societies of the West.
 
But please. The only purpose you do not want to see a covered woman in the West is because it defies the sex-crazed societies of the West.
This is patently untrue.
An assumption.
This is stating that all people in western societies (read- non-muslim) are then to be considered as being sex-crazed.
This is wrong and no different than stating that all Muslims are terrorists which is also untrue.
There are barbaric fanatics on both sides which make all look bad and are held up as the representatives.
This is propaganda.
I thought better of you Amica.
 
These Westerners would want to strip the Muslim woman of her clothes she deems modest, because they believe her 'oppressed' even when the woman says it's her choice. So, where is that western ideal then of "do what you will, just don't break any laws"? Where is the freedom of religion, speech, etc?

I agree. People assume that just because they cover their heads that they are oppressed. But it's just a piece of cloth. People will have different reasons for wearing it. The many interpretations of one's choice of clothing is like the many interpretations of Scripture.

Muslim men are accused of 'lusting' after women, as women opressors and such. But, look who is actually lusting after women and who has made women sexual slaves. You have porno industry booming in the West. Every magazine you see in stores has titles such as "his secret sex moves,' 'how to be a b***c,' 'new sex moves,' 'get a sexy body with these moves,' etc. Supermodels are easily starved away because of the 'ideal' body.

The women involved in the sex/porno industry are not slaves. They work in that industry by their own free choice. They could easily change their career and do something else. A slave is locked into a particular trade. These women in theory, could have done anything they wanted. They could have studied science, engineering or medicine at university. They could have been lawyers or politicians. They could have been teachers. But they chose to make money from sex.

Women are changing their bodies with breast, butt and whatever other implants to be more attractive.

There is no compulsion. It's their choice. There aren't that many women involved in the sex industry. It's a small fraction of the population. Most women I know have nothing to do with it.

Men and women start sexual experience very young and usually have many sexual partners in their life time.

Many do. Many don't. Although the idea of a teenage father disgusts me, I realise that they are good for the economy. Some people are career-focused and wait until the age of thirty to start a family. Some want to make babies. Baby-making is good for the economy. It increases the size of the population and provides more potential labourers and workers. That allows a country to compete against others economically.

Look what's happening in Europe. The "native European" (ie. non-African) population is aging. Less and less "native Europeans" are having kids. European governments are now relying on migrants to keep the economy going and to boost the population.

Men won't look at a modestly dressed woman (even the non-Muslim women who choose to wear more modestly) but are looking to find 'sexy' ones.

Trust me when I say this. Even the "modestly dressed" women can be "attractive" and men do look for these women. To say that women have to do something their bodies is to assume that men are shallow (and stupid). I think a lot of men would appreciate it if women didn't try to change so that we'd like them more. We like them the way they are. Be yourself. We will come looking for you.

If you got lost in the forest would you stay in your current location and wait for your parents to find you or would you keep shifting around to make it harder for them to find you?

Women don't have to expose more skin to be more attractive. They don't even have to dress feminine and womanly. They can wear jeans, long pants, long sleeves and trousers and men will still seek them out. A woman's desirability isn't strictly to do with the way she dresses anyway. It could be her personality and intelligence.

In Roman culture, a large forehead made you attractive because it was a sign of intelligence.

I sometimes wonder when I look at a couple. How did they get together? I don't even find the women attractive. It's because a woman's desirability can depend on her temperament, personality and intelligence. I don't want someone who is arrogant, rude, obnoxious and inconsiderate. People get tired of looks. It is more practical to find someone you can tolerate for a lifetime than someone who stops being cute after five minutes.

One night stands (sex) is very common and there is no Western non-Muslim that I know who did not have more than one of those.

You've been talking to the wrong people.

So. Who is trully obsessed with sex? But please. The only purpose you do not want to see a covered woman in the West is because it defies the sex-crazed societies of the West.

If Muslim societies were not sex-crazed, why would people insist that women have to wear hijabs, niqabs and whatever other dresses they have? Why don't you just take off your headdress if it isn't a problem?

Maybe the reason why they don't wear them in Western countries is because it is less of a problem.:) It's relative.
 
MW,

What Dogbrain is saying is that it would be impossible to have an Islamic country without it turning into an Arab male patriarchal system. Do you disagree?

Yes I do disagree. I can see the women's liberation movement in the Middle East, with women fighting for their Islamic rights from behind their niqab and burka (a dress code many of them chose to adopt).

Women are highly educated in the Middle East now and they are starting to speak out for their rights ... not rights according to the West but their rights granted to them by Allah (swt) and the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) but largely removed following the death of the Prophet.

Arab Muslims make up less than 20% of world Muslims now. The Arab fundamentalists usually talk about liberal Imams in the West as having been corrupted but as more Muslims follow liberal Imams we will start to see Islam in it's true light again ISA.
 
Yes I do disagree. I can see the women's liberation movement in the Middle East, with women fighting for their Islamic rights from behind their niqab and burka (a dress code many of them chose to adopt).

What about the ones who don't choose it?

When government favors one religion over any other, that government is a tool of Satan.
 
But please. The only purpose you do not want to see a covered woman in the West is because it defies the sex-crazed societies of the West.

Muslims are all sex crazed. I can see a woman in a bikini and not be overcome with lust. Muslims, on the other hand, are so lustful and sex crazed that they require laws preventing them from seeing a woman in such an outfit.
 
Muslims are all sex crazed. I can see a woman in a bikini and not be overcome with lust. Muslims, on the other hand, are so lustful and sex crazed that they require laws preventing them from seeing a woman in such an outfit.

How strange, I am a Muslim and don't feel in the slightest bit sex crazed.

Nope just asked hubby if he's feeling sex crazed and he says he's too busy watching a film, maybe later.

Ho hum, aren't stereotypes amusing.
 
Hi MW,

We discussed,

"...it would be impossible to have an Islamic country without it turning into an Arab male patriarchal system. Do you disagree? --> Yes I do disagree."

--> I guess the proof is in the pudding. Please keep us posted of examples in Muslim countries that show a trend to becoming more liberal.
 
How strange, I am a Muslim and don't feel in the slightest bit sex crazed.

Nope just asked hubby if he's feeling sex crazed and he says he's too busy watching a film, maybe later.

Ho hum, aren't stereotypes amusing.

You are the one blindly and ignorantly spewing stereotypes. I was just illustrating the absurdity of one of your stereotypes, specifically the pig-ignorant, stupid, and outright moronic stereotype that women must keep themselves covered up or men will assault them left and right. This is, of course, coupled with your other favorite stereotype, that women who do not choose to dress as you dress are all "sluts".
 
Hi MW,

We discussed,

"...it would be impossible to have an Islamic country without it turning into an Arab male patriarchal system. Do you disagree? --> Yes I do disagree."

--> I guess the proof is in the pudding. Please keep us posted of examples in Muslim countries that show a trend to becoming more liberal.

Hi Nick

There are a few Muslim countries I would like to visit to see how their system works in reality.

Jordan would be my first stop, from what I read of the country they are quite liberal. Christians and Jews can worship freely, women serve in cabinet and there is no strict dress code.

Bahrain has public decency laws (so no kissing in public) but has a number of synagogues, so suggests religious tolerence. Kuwait, is also meant to be quite liberal.

UAE not only allows Jews and Christians to worship but Hindu's as well.

I point out countries which allow religious tolerence because I feel this is so demonstrative of their attitudes to "others", which is such a key issue in a liberal society.
 
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