Koan on the Self

The Undecided

The Undecided

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This is for the Buddha-Heads out there. After thinking about that famous saying 'Know Thyself' I wrote a Koan on what is meant by the self. I would love to know if anyone thinks that it either has some wisdom to it or whether you think it is nonsense.


To know yourself is to know that you have no self.


All view points welcome.

TU:D
 
To know yourself is to know that you have no self.
Click to expand...
No your-self
But what does the knowing if there is no self?
:confused: :eek: :cool:
Is the self you?.....what is you?.....who is you?

I suppose that it is a proper koan in that it is circular and yet confounding at the same time, which is good, as koans are supposed to snap the logical portion of the intellect so the intuitive can shine through.
Nothing like a good thwack on the melon with a stick to help one achieve enlightenment.
Seems to be a common theme in zen stories.
 
I suppose that it is a proper koan in that it is circular and yet confounding at the same time, which is good, as koans are supposed to snap the logical portion of the intellect so the intuitive can shine through.
Nothing like a good thwack on the melon with a stick to help one achieve enlightenment
Click to expand...
.

Too true. Thanks for your comment shawn.

shawn said:
No your-self
But what does the knowing if there is no self?
:confused: :eek: :cool:
Is the self you?.....what is you?.....who is you?
Click to expand...

Buddhists believe that there is not a self in the way we usually think of the self (Captain Kirk self on the bridge controlling all of our actions), but in fact this permanent never changing self doesn't actually exist, it is an illusion. We have a mind which is constantly changing from moment to moment. The simple test for this is to try and find your 'self', where is it? It is in your toe when you stub it, your head when you bang it. How can it be in both of these places. The more we look for this self the more we realise that it doesn't exist the way we thought it did. So, to know yourself (who and how you are) is to know that this self doesn't exist, and that nothing about us is permanent.

TU:D
 
Is it in your toe? Is it in your head? Yes... It is. How can it be in both of these places? Because both of those places are one. ONE?! Yeah, one place. Simple. Guess what... If I also banged my finger..... Not only would I start to wonder if I were an accident prone moron, but I would of again hit injured my self. It's in that place too....

Nothing is permanent? Sure it is. Our energy we borrow and return to the universe. And our physical being sure it breaks down.... But it is stil atoms and matter..... And it still flows on :) It is NEVER 100% gone/destroyed.


shawn said:
No your-self
But what does the knowing if there is no self?
:confused: :eek: :cool:
Is the self you?.....what is you?.....who is you?

I suppose that it is a proper koan in that it is circular and yet confounding at the same time, which is good, as koans are supposed to snap the logical portion of the intellect so the intuitive can shine through.
Nothing like a good thwack on the melon with a stick to help one achieve enlightenment.
Seems to be a common theme in zen stories.
Click to expand...


zen stories are just nonsense... Pretending to be "wisdom" and "intelligent" lol Never heard of koans... But if they're meant to be the same as zen then the koan TU posted is in harmony.
 
Snoopy said:
In "common" usage of the term "self", the acceptance of an inherent self suggests eternalism. The acceptance of no self suggests nihilism. The Buddhist mark of anatta I think refers to no inherent, independently existing self. The middle way of the Buddha rejects both extremes.
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Hi Snoopy. The middle way of the Buddha suggests that the self simply doesn't exist in the way we think it does. It is actually a mental continuum that is ever changing. It is a rejection of the "inherent, independently existing self," but not without replacing it with something else.

TU:D
 
The Undecided said:
but not without replacing it with something else.
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Hi,:)

Too many negatives in this for me to get what you mean. d'uh!




I think if you start from the basis of universal contingency then you can't go far wrong, meself. hehe.

s.
 
17th Angel said:
Is it in your toe? Is it in your head? Yes... It is. How can it be in both of these places? Because both of those places are one. ONE?! Yeah, one place. Simple. Guess what... If I also banged my finger..... Not only would I start to wonder if I were an accident prone moron, but I would of again hit injured my self. It's in that place too....
Click to expand...

I agree that all of these places are part of one whole, of course, it is our body. I was referring to the self which considers the body as 'mine', that thinks my toe is hurting, I have banged my head. That is the self that does not exist. The body exists but the kind of mind that considers itself in possession of the body, or anything else like my car, my computer, my money does not.

Nothing is permanent? Sure it is. Our energy we borrow and return to the universe. And our physical being sure it breaks down.... But it is stil atoms and matter..... And it still flows on :) It is NEVER 100% gone/destroyed.
Click to expand...
Firstly atoms are made up of sub-atomic particles and are 99% space, and if you know anything about Quantum Mechanics you'll know how unpredictable and random sub-atomic particles are, not what I would call permanent. Matter is made of atoms, and things like rocks, trees and people are made of matter, this is true. But our physical beings are doing more than breaking down, we are changing on a moment to moment basis on a cellular level. We get a whole new cellular structure every seven years, so how can this be considered permanent? I agree that everything flows on that is true, but when you said "It is NEVER 100% gone/destroyed" what were you referring to? What is it?

zen stories are just nonsense... Pretending to be "wisdom" and "intelligent" lol Never heard of koans... But if they're meant to be the same as zen then the koan TU posted is in harmony.
Click to expand...

Koans are Zen stories. They are supposed to get you thinking. Koans don't have one answer, they are to be contemplated on to gain more "wisdom" and "intelligence," it is a means to an end. If they are not your thing that's cool.

TU
 
One of the peculiar characteristics about zen is that introspection has its place. It is language that creates illusions.

Another introspective koan, featured in a Natsume Soseki novel, goes like this:

"What was your face before your parents were born?"

Koans are meant to give a sudden silent illumination, but that is not all. The roshi chooses a koan for each monk based on his intuitive understanding of what is preventing that individual monk from seeing clearly. Each monk then has to struggle with the koan for weeks or months not just in meditation but throughout all their daily tasks of cooking, cleaning, and everything else. It is not so much about arriving at a fundamental truth as it is about focusing the mind on one question at a time, and using it as a tool to clear away illusions.

So, to the undecided I say, if the koan works for you use it. Then pick another one to focus on at a later time.

The koan which every zen monk has to face at some point is, "Mu" (nothingness). How do you respond to that?
 
nativeastral said:
take away all of your senses [ non sense] and what is left?
Click to expand...


This is difficult to answer. I am reading a book called No Boundary by Ken Wilber which states that you are your senses, you are your experiences. There is no boundary between you and your experiences. In the book this is referred to as Unity Consciousness, meaning that there is no boundary between anything in the universe, all boundaries, like the one we see between us and the rest of the world, are illusions. So to take away all of your senses would leave you with nothing else. But I am a believer in reicarnation, and I wonder if this is true then what is reincarnated?

TU:D
 
Sancho said:
One of the peculiar characteristics about zen is that introspection has its place. It is language that creates illusions.

Another introspective koan, featured in a Natsume Soseki novel, goes like this:

"What was your face before your parents were born?"

Koans are meant to give a sudden silent illumination, but that is not all. The roshi chooses a koan for each monk based on his intuitive understanding of what is preventing that individual monk from seeing clearly. Each monk then has to struggle with the koan for weeks or months not just in meditation but throughout all their daily tasks of cooking, cleaning, and everything else. It is not so much about arriving at a fundamental truth as it is about focusing the mind on one question at a time, and using as a tool to clear away illusions.

So, to the undecided I say, if the koan works for you use it. Then pick another one to focus on at a later time.

The koan which every zen monk has to face at some point is, "Mu" (nothingness). How do you respond to that?
Click to expand...


Thanks Sancho. Maybe I created this Koan because I felt that I needed to think more about the subject of the self, or maybe as I have some understanding of No Self then I created it to prove this point. In which case it was created to fan my ego, which would render this Koan useless to me. Though perhaps it is good that I created it because it has shown me that I have some ego left to work on. I shall contemplate this Koan some more.

TU:confused:
 
Snoopy said:
something...that can't be tasted, smelled, touched, heard, seen or thought about?

s.
Click to expand...

Like star dust?! I was gonna reduce to the four elements then thought of the fifth and came across this [you know l like posting links for dissemination even tho it may have 0 to do with this particular topic!]
The Fifth Element

Undecided
This is difficult to answer. I am reading a book called No Boundary by Ken Wilber which states that you are your senses, you are your experiences. There is no boundary between you and your experiences. In the book this is referred to as Unity Consciousness, meaning that there is no boundary between anything in the universe, all boundaries, like the one we see between us and the rest of the world, are illusions. So to take away all of your senses would leave you with nothing else. But I am a believer in reicarnation, and I wonder if this is true then what is reincarnated?
Click to expand...
from that same site [ps has a bit on reicarnation]
[youtube]WCLjoT14JPI[/youtube]

this 'no boundry' was also what Heidegger was trying to focus on in his dasien concept ['being there'] and his three modes of being, 'we are the world existingly', in breaking down the subject/object dichotomy of western philosophy [and use of 'substance'], which the eastern philosophies of non duality have a richer grasp on.
 
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