A phone conversation with a muslim missionary

[rodgertutt]

The point I am trying to make is that there is plenty of evidence that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation.

Here are fifteen chapters of evidence to that effect that cover every aspect of the subject.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World

Whether or not the Bible is "the word of God" is a different subject.

 

[citizenzen]

The point I am trying to make is that there is plenty of evidence that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation.

What difference does it make how it was translated, when it was written, edited and compiled by men in the first place? The pages didn't flutter from the sky. They were purposefully chosen (or discarded) to fulfill the social, political and religious desires of certain individuals and groups.

 

[OAT]

Hi Roddertutt!

the Quran says hell is eternal, so then on what grounds can we desbelieve in that?

Well, it is entirely a matter of faith for a start.

Here my preferred way to look at it, it is a reasonableness test:
God created man,
then God created hell for man,
Is that reasonable?
Answer: No.
Why? Whatever causes that man created to qualify him to hell, God cannot escape culpability because he is the first cause.

 

[OAT]

Hi rodgertutt,
Did God choose the church of Christian Universalism to carry his correct doctrine and ignore the incorrect doctrine carried by the other denomination, and thereby allowing wrong ideas about the type of God He is and the message that he would like to send to the world, to be disseminated?

 

[rodgertutt]

Why god allows evil

Hi rodgertutt,
Did God choose the church of Christian Universalism to carry his correct doctrine and ignore the incorrect doctrine carried by the other denomination, and thereby allowing wrong ideas about the type of God He is and the message that he would like to send to the world, to be disseminated?

Yes He did.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

There will come a point in time in the future when everyone will look back from the point of view the consummation of God's plan for the ages of time, and all will agree that it was better that everything happened the way that it did, including the temporary prevalence of false ideas about God.

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

 

[citizenzen]

Re: Why god allows evil

...and all will agree that it was better that everything happened the way that it did, including the temporary prevalence of false ideas about God.

*Phew* Imagine my relief. For a moment there I almost thought I was damned to Hell.

But it was all for the better after all.

I knew I was atheist for a reason.

 

[OAT]

Re: Why god allows evil

Yes He did.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

There will come a point in time in the future when everyone will look back from the point of view the consummation of God's plan for the ages of time, and all will agree that it was better that everything happened the way that it did, including the temporary prevalence of false ideas about God.

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

I've learned to be a little more discriminating, now that I have lived about two thirds of man's expected life-span. So, could you help me along and give me some concrete evidence of God's choice of Christian Universalism over the rest of Christiandom?

I have problem going over the first hurdle that there is a Creator God, so I'll just have to kiv your comment that everything is according to God's plan.

By the way, does Christian Universalism believe like the rest of Christianity that Christ is the only way to salvation?

 

[rodgertutt]

Re: Why god allows evil

*Phew* Imagine my relief. For a moment there I almost thought I was damned to Hell.

But it was all for the better after all.

I knew I was atheist for a reason.

According to the Bible Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it.
Chapter Eleven

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

 

[rodgertutt]

Re: Why god allows evil

I've learned to be a little more discriminating, now that I have lived about two thirds of man's expected life-span. So, could you help me along and give me some concrete evidence of God's choice of Christian Universalism over the rest of Christiandom?

What I can give you is evidence that the Bible teaches universalsim.
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World
Whether or not one believes the Bible is "the word of God" is an etirely different subject.

By the way, does Christian Universalism believe like the rest of Christianity that Christ is the only way to salvation?

Yes. But everyone will experience that salvation by Christ sooner or later.
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
absolute assurance in jesus christ

 

[OAT]

Re: Why god allows evil

What I can give you is evidence that the Bible teaches universalsim.
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World
Whether or not one believes the Bible is "the word of God" is an etirely different subject.

But other part of Christiandom interprets the Bible differently from Christian Universalism. In other words, the absence of consensus on the issue of universalism weakens the use of universalism itself as evidence.

Yes. But everyone will experience that salvation by Christ sooner or later.
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
absolute assurance in jesus christ

Again I have to kiv this since I cannot get pass the hurdle of a Creator God. In addition, from my point of view, there is a no good explanation of the purpose of our creation by Christian, Islam or any religion that posit a Creator God.

 

[rodgertutt]

Re: Why god allows evil

But other part of Christiandom interprets the Bible differently from Christian Universalism. In other words, the absence of consensus on the issue of universalism weakens the use of universalism itself as evidence.

Again I have to kiv this since I cannot get pass the hurdle of a Creator God. In addition, from my point of view, there is a no good explanation of the purpose of our creation by Christian, Islam or any religion that posit a Creator God.

As you well know, there are many opinions about this subject.
Personally I found the following very satisfactory.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

 

[OAT]

Re: Why god allows evil

As you well know, there are many opinions about this subject.
Personally I found the following very satisfactory.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

Agreed, if one were to assert the existence of an Almighty God of Love. In fact, there would be no way out but to accept that God is the creator of evil. The use of free will by other Christian denominations to pass the buck really lacks credibility.

However, the model of a Creator God is not the only model to explain our existence and the existence of evil.

I used to toy with the idea that perhaps there was an Almighty God but instead of being good, He is evil pretending to be good. And the whole of creation is just a sick joke on us humans.

Fortunately, there are models that do not require the existence of a Creator God. These can be found in the philosophy of religious Taoism, Jainism and in Buddhism. Hinduism on the other hand seemed to have a curious blend of creator god approach and creation arising from a formless substrate.

So if there is really an Almighty God of Love, He would have to allow for the fact that there are people like me who finds it more reasonable not to believe in His existence but prefers a different model.

 

[OAT]

Btw rodgertutt, if I have met Christian Universalism thirty years ago, there would be a high chance that I would have not left on Christianity.

 

[rodgertutt]

Btw rodgertutt, if I had met Christian Universalism thirty years ago, there would be a high chance that I would have not left Christianity.

I think there are very many people who would say the same thing Oat.

In my opinion, being an atheist is part of the process that God puts some people through.

My hero and mentor Ray Prinzing said that it is God Who decides for us what belief or non-belief system each of us gets involved in.
And He decides how long we stay in that system.
But sooner or later the afterlife is going to be good for everyone.
I think that too.

 

[OAT]

I think there are very many people who would say the same thing Oat.

In my opinion, being an atheist is part of the process that God puts some people through.

My hero and mentor Ray Prinzing said that it is God Who decides for us what belief or non-belief system each of us gets involved in.
And He decides how long we stay in that system.
But sooner or later the afterlife is going to be good for everyone.
I think that too.

On looking back, it was a good thing that I left Christianity because it freed my mind to other possibilities. Prior to that, my mind was rather closed without my realising it.

 

[rodgertutt]

On looking back, it was a good thing that I left Christianity because it freed my mind to other possibilities. Prior to that, my mind was rather closed without my realizing it.

Ya, there are a lot of closed minded people in this world.
That's for sure!

 

[bob x]

I hope you won't be offended by this analogy, but: frequently I used to encounter true-believer Marxists who agreed that Soviet and Chinese Communism went off track and turned to evil, but that these were not "real" Communism. Communism "could have" developed in a beautiful way, and still could if the correct path were followed; it was all the fault of Stalin and Mao that things got off-track; a lot of these true-believers were Trotskyites who thought that if only Trotsky had prevailed in the power struggle, everything would have turned out differently, and if I pointed out that Trotsky too behaved like a rather nasty SOB in, for example, the early phases of the Russian Civil War, this would offend them.

But the more fundamental problem I had with this line of thought was: doesn't it say something bad about Marxism that every time it has been tried, the bully-boys just take over and turn it into an excuse for a tyranny? Wasn't there a "historical inevitability" about Stalin prevailing in Russia: that is, could Trotsky possibly have prevailed in any other way except by being even worse than Stalin?

And this is my analogy for you: you say that the prevailing idea of Christianity isn't "real" Christianity, but doesn't it say something bad about Christianity itself that the prevailing form of Christian beliefs, everywhere, has always developed in what you think of as the "wrong" direction? If the early Christians had it "right", how come Christianity didn't "stay right", anywhere? Is Satan more powerful than God?

 

[OAT]

Ya, there are a lot of closed minded people in this world.
That's for sure!

From a Christian Universalism point of view, that would be God given. But I think that is part of being human ... it made for for efficient decision making, though not necessarily effective decision making.

 

[citizenzen]

Ya, there are a lot of closed minded people in this world.
That's for sure!

I believe the vast majority of people in this world are well-meaning and trying to make the best of the existence they have.

I hope you don't consider people to be closed minded when they don't agree with you.

 

[rodgertutt]

I hope you won't be offended by this analogy.

Was not offended Bob.

This is my analogy for you: you say that the prevailing idea of Christianity isn't "real" Christianity,

What I did say (instead of that) is that there is evidence that the Bible teaches universal salvation for all, not everlasting suffering for some.
Savior of the World Series

but doesn't it say something bad about Christianity itself that the prevailing form of Christian beliefs, everywhere, has always developed in what you think of as the "wrong" direction?

All evil (including false ideas about God's character) will temporarily prevail for reasons that will ulimately be perceived as good.
God has the intention, and the ability to eventually successfully transform the existence of all evil into good.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

If the early Christians had it "right", how come Christianity didn't "stay right", anywhere? Is Satan more powerful than God?

Even Satan's greatest acts of opposition only further God's purposes.

It is not without prophetic significance that Jesus told Satan,
"The Lord your God shall you be worshipping,
and to Him only shall you be offering divine service (Matt. 4:10).

This will spell the final doom of Satan as an adversary, but retain him
as a creature who will ultimately love and worship God.
Thus will God be glorified.
Reconciliation in the Heavens