A phone conversation with a muslim missionary

You can "keep trying" to convince me of the validity of your point of view as much as the strongest influences in your brain CAUSE you to want to keep trying MORE than not continue to keep trying.

But after all of your effort to convince me, it will still be true that all of the choices you made in the past were the only ones you could have made, at that particular point in time, all influential factors being exactly the same.

There is no possibility you could have chosen anything else.

No one can choose what they do not prefer MOST. There is no such thing as an object being "choicest" which has not yet been chosen.
We can no more exercise volition contrary to our understanding and
disposition than a tree can bear fruit contrary to its nature.

Therefore, there is no such a thing as "free" will.

The strongest influence on my mind CAUSES me to love and worship a "personal" God Who will eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it temporarily prevailed.

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 
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bob x said:
it is an absurdity to talk of any evil being "made right" ever: it is always what it is, and the fact that something else exists, no matter how good, doesn't change the evilness of the evil.
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It's not an absurdity to me. Of course evil is evil. But I love and worship a God Who has the intention, and the ability to transform the negative results of evil into something better for everyone that they temporarily prevailed.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

From the point of view of the consummation of God's plan for the ages of time, everyone will look back and understand that it was far better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did.

That's the kind of "personal" God that I love and worship!

Here is a universal transformation Christian point of view.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Here is a quote from it.
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
 
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citizenzen said:
How's it going for you Bob? :D
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It will "go" for Bob however the strongest sets of influences CAUSE him to go.

Whatever decision he makes in answering you will be the result of the strongest influences on his mind that CAUSE him to reply as he MUST.

Even if Bob changes his mind about what he's going to say just to try to prove me wrong, then that attempt will have become the strongest influence.

Everything that you and Bob have ever done was the ONLY thing you could have done at the particular point in time that you did it.

You guys call that "free" will.
I don't.
 
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rodgertutt said:
It will "go" for Bob however the strongest sets of influences CAUSE him to go.

Whatever decision he makes in answering you will be the result of the strongest influences on his mind that CAUSE him to reply as he MUST.

Even if Bob changes his mind about what he's going to say just to try to prove me wrong, then that attempt will have become the strongest influence.

Everything that you and Bob have ever done was the ONLY thing you could have done at the particular point in time that you did it.

You guys call that "free" will.
I don't.
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Thank you sir! May I have another?! :D

[youtube]qdFLPn30dvQ[/youtube]

Original Title - Rodger Tuttle, Determinist Paddle
 
bob x said:
Same old same old :p
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I am repeating this post because I "timed out" while composing it.

And here is even more of the "same old same old." :)

THE PHANTOM OF "FREE" WILL
biblical studies: The Problem Of Evil - Part One - Chapter Thirteen - The Phantom of Free Will

We are only "free" to choose what we want MOST at any given point in time.

A few seconds before, we might not have wanted it the MOST.
A few seconds later, we might not have wanted it the MOST.
It may even be true that most of the time we would have wanted to choose something else the most.
But at that point in time when we actually make a choice, it's because we want it the MOST, and, at that point in time we cannot choose anything else.
 
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rodgertutt said:
I am repeating this post because I "timed out" while composing it.
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You should see a doctor about that.

Do you realize that you're also repeating virtually the same post over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over?

You might want to see a doctor about that too.
 
citizenzen said:
You should see a doctor about that.

Do you realize that you're also repeating virtually the same post over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over?

You might want to see a doctor about that too.
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Perhaps it's my age?
I'm 71, and my memory is not as good as it used to be. :(

By the way, did I remember to mention that every choice we ever made in the past was the ONLY one we could have made, because, at that particlular point in time, it was the choice that we wanted to make the MOST? ;)
 
No ranking of the influences from "weaker" to "stronger" existed before the choice, therefore it is entirely improper to speak of the strengths of the influences CAUSING the choice; on the contrary, it is the choice which CAUSES the outcome to be what you "want most".

At that particular point in time, there were many possible outcomes, and no-one who was not omniscient about the future could say anything but "all these outcomes remain possible"; not even someone who was omniscient about the complete present state of the material universe could speak of "only" one outcome as possible. So if you want your repetitively-made argument to appear as anything but noise, you need to show that omniscience of the future exists.

And I am not persuaded that any Being who is "omniscient about the future" does exist. However strongly you may believe that such is the nature of God, you should know that it is not "self-evident" to anyone who has no reason to believe the Bible infallible, and therefore is unimpressed with any string of Scripture quotes. There is little point in your posting more articles of the same kind, if you will not bother to discuss them with anybody who actually does read them.
 
bob x said:
it is the choice which CAUSES the outcome to be what you "want most".
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No, it's the other way around.
It is what you want MOST that CAUSES the choice you make at any given point in time.

bob x said:
At that particular point in time, there were many possible outcomes,
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No, at any particular point in time there is only one outcome possible, and that is what you decide, after due deliberation, that you want the MOST.
Since no other outcome is even possible, every choice you made is the only one you could have made.

bob x said:
And I am not persuaded that any Being who is "omniscient about the future" does exist. However strongly you may believe that such is the nature of God, you should know that it is not "self-evident" to anyone who has no reason to believe the Bible infallible, and therefore is unimpressed with any string of Scripture quotes.
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I love and worship a God Who not only is omnicient, but is also the CAUSE of everything within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, and He will eventually transform all of the negative consequenses of evil and suffering that He allows, into something better for everyone that it occured, and that includes your temporary inability to believe what the Bible says, that God is Love, and He is responsible for everything.

God is Love
1John 4:8 and 16

ALL is of God
2Corinthians 5:18

God works ALL things according to the counsel of His own will
Ephesians 1:11

bob x said:
There is little point in your posting more articles of the same kind, if you will not bother to discuss them with anybody who actually does read them.
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To what, specifically, are you referring that I did not discuss?
I don't remember anything that I did not discuss.

Here is what I believe, and why I believe it
THE GOAL OF THE UNIVERSE by Adlai Loudy
God's Eonian Purpose - Chapter 21 - The Goal of the Universe
 
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Here is a quote by A.E. Knoch, that Adlai Loudy records in THE GOAL OF THE UNIVERSE

"God is not experimenting in human life. He does not adventure at the creature's risk. He does not gamble on chance, or trust to a lucky turn of the wheel of life to bring a possible handful of His creatures back to Himself. In order to save one soul He is not compelled, by some hideous necessity, to doom a hundred.

When His purpose in human life is completed, no debris will remain to mar the finished perfection of His work. The circle of human freedom is itself enclosed within the larger circle of the divine decrees. `Known unto God are all His works.' Sin's entrance into the universe was no accident, nor did it take the Almighty by surprise.

God knew what it would do when He allowed it to enter; and when sin finally vacates the scene it will do so defeated in every particular, not even a partial victor over any that God brought into existence for Himself. Sin will not remain in the universe, either as wielding the lash of endless torment, or holding the scepter of endless death.

Death itself shall die, and destruction be itself destroyed. That such a glorious end is to be the grand climax of eonian times, it is now our province to show from the store house of God's revealed truth"
(Excerpt from ALL IN ALL)

BTW, Knoch's reference to "human freedom" refers to our freedom to choose ONLY what we want the MOST.
 
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rodgertutt said:
No, it's the other way around.
It is what you want MOST that CAUSES the choice you make at any given point in time.
No, at any particular point in time there is only one outcome possible, and that is what you decide, after due deliberation, that you want the MOST.
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You acknowledge yourself that there is no ranking of what you want "less, more, or most" until after you decide. What comes after is not properly called the "cause"; it is, rather, the effect.
rodgertutt said:
Since no other outcome is even possible, every choice you made is the only one you could have made.
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It is the only choice you did make, but up until you choose, all the other options were possible.
rodgertutt said:
I love and worship a God Who not only is omnicient, but is also the CAUSE of everything within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, and He will eventually transform all of the negative consequenses of evil and suffering that He allows, into something better for everyone that it occured, and that includes your temporary inability to believe what the Bible says, that God is Love, and He is responsible for everything.

God is Love
1John 4:8 and 16

ALL is of God
2Corinthians 5:18

God works ALL things according to the counsel of His own will
Ephesians 1:11
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In response to my pointing out how totally worthless it is to quote the Bible to somebody who has no reason to regard the Bible as infallible, you do precisely what is totally worthless, as far as possibly exerting any influence on me. If you wanted (MOST :) ) to actually have any influence, you would either have to argue in some way other than Bible quotes, or try to justify the underlying assumption that the Bible has some authority.
rodgertutt said:
To what, specifically, are you referring that I did not discuss?
I don't remember anything that I did not discuss.
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You have never really "discussed" anything. Repeating over and over what you believe, without reasons why anybody else should believe it true, without making any answer to the reasons that have pointed out to you why your beliefs do not appear true to anyone who does not already believe, is not "discussing". A trained bird could do as well.
 
Bob, you will believe or not believe whatever the strongest set of influences have on your mind, as will everyone else.

I started this thread and posted my conversation with a Muslim missionary for Bible believing Christians who are unable to love a God who would let anyone suffer forever.

I posted it to guide them to evidence that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach that God will let anyone suffer forever.

Obviously, this evidence is irrelevant to people who think like you do.

So I would just like to say the following in case anyone else is reading this thread who might find it helpful.

"A great introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid biblical perspective. Highly Recommended! "

THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES
Savior of the World Series

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
 
I think there are Muslim universalist perspectives out there, Roger.

"Hell is meant for purification.

Quite in accordance with the idea of paradise as a place of unending progress to
higher stages of life is the idea of hell, where punishment is not meant for torture
but for purification, in order to make a man fit for spiritual advancement. The idea
underlying hell is that those who wasted their opportunity in this life shall, under
the inevitable law which makes every man taste of what he has done, be subjected
to a course of treatment for the spiritual diseases which they have brought about
with their own hands. It is for this reason that the Holy Qur’ån makes a difference
between the abiding in paradise and the abiding in hell, allowing a termination in
the latter case but not in the former."

Introduction: p. 1-49

ww.muslim.org/english-quran/quran-intro.htm
 
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Gullytale said:
I think there are Muslim universalist perspectives out there, Rodger.
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I agree with you Gully.
Just like in Christianity there is a wide range of beliefs in Islam, all the way from untra-concervative to very liberal.

Here is the ultra-conservative Muslim point of view.

"Non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
The Afterlife in Islam - ReligionFacts
 
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