I have seen Heaven and there is no hell!

Why, though, Snoopy?

Because without one there cannot be the other. It is not like, say salt and pepper, where salt could exist without pepper, it is like light and dark. An essential criterion for light is the absence of darkness. An essential criterion for darkness is the absence of light. If one rejects the notion of darkness, how can there be light?

s.
 
Not on that premise ... if what you suggest was the case, then I think the general attitude would be 'if nothing counts, then live for today — anything goes', surely?

That would seem to suggest the entire human race, across the world now and always, has always lived in fear of divine retribution after death.

And yet, humanity seems perfectly fine and able to create "moral structures" based around the concerns and interests of their cultures. It appears hard-wired within us as social apes, regardless as to whether the justification for such structures is claimed to be divine or secular.



I mean, if the end is an eternity of bliss, regardless, then morality would go straight out the window. The most inviting solution to life would be to take up the option now — I would think suicide numbers would be pandemic.

Indeed, but it would take a huge amount of belief, and as physical constructs we tend to become rather fond of our physical attachments of being. :)

And just because there is bliss after death does not mean to say there isn't work and responsibility in life. Otherwise it would be pointless for Divinity to create physical life in the first place!


Because without one there cannot be the other. It is not like, say salt and pepper, where salt could exist without pepper, it is like light and dark. An essential criterion for light is the absence of darkness. An essential criterion for darkness is the absence of light. If one rejects the notion of darkness, how can there be light?

s.

Dualism is a fallacy. There is nowhere in the universe that is completely dark. At the most extreme, there is always light we cannot see. Light is simply a part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and there are other forms, from radio, microwave, IR, UV, X-rays,etc.

The light/darkness duality fallacy occurs because we are a species whose experience of the world is dominated by our visual perceptions of a very narrow range of the EM spectrum. Therefore we define existence according to that experience.

But just because we as naked apes experience a subjective darkness if visible wavelengths are weak does not mean there is an actual objective absence of light. We cannot allow our limitations as a species to claim superiority over the larger universe.

Something I've longed to do is to set up different cameras on the same area, to record different aspects of the electromagnetic spectrum and then create a composite from all of these. It will still require some degree of transformation to visible wavelengths, but that can be done with infra red and ultra violet well enough to show a distinction from normal visible light. That could provide a more objective view of what reality looks like, instead of our blinkered species-specific point of view.
 
Dualism is a fallacy.

I imagine (?) you know I'm going to agree with that. :p

My choice of analogy was just my attempt to answer your question, it wasn't to get into the nature of the universe quite like that! Sorry...:eek:

How about yes and no as an analogy? In yes there is no; in no there is yes.

Of course, I accept your expererience, but if you have seen Canterbury is that sufficient grounds to deny the existence of York?

Heaven and hell are made by each of us (as I understand it). The physical universe does not determine them. A trivial comparison: the holiday of a lifetime in paradise as described by someone that I work with would be hell for me...

"To make hell into paradise, we need only change the mind on which it is based."

- Thich Nhat Hanh.

s.
 
Heaven and hell are made by each of us (as I understand it). The physical universe does not determine them. A trivial comparison: the holiday of a lifetime in paradise as described by someone that I work with would be hell for me...

Lol! That's brilliant - "Behold!" sayeth the lord, "Obey me, or I will condemn you to an eternity of cheap package holidays!" :)
 
I can never quite accept this ... if this world/life is not as we want them to be, what reason is there to assume that any other is as we want them to be?

I’m not quite sure what salty means by “Heaven and hell are whatever you want them to be” and I don’t want to speak for him. But for my part I don’t think I would say that heaven and hell are whatever you want them to be.They are created by our mind; our relative success or failure does not depend on wishing, but, I believe, starts with contemplation.

But then who in his or her right mind would choose hell?
Your question is valid, blatant even. But does it not look to you that some people (in your own country, and not in abject poverty) do choose (subjective) hell (out of ignorance and being misled)? What they choose they think will bring them happiness, but in fact, ultimately, one way or another it does not. Think of all the people who get outrageously drunk every weekend. Are they happy when they sober up? Will they be happy when their body starts to malfunction? Who in their right mind???


Again ... if a car mounts the curb as you walk along ... can you make that disappear?


I’m not recommending jumping in front of moving vehicles but I do think it is true that objective reality is not the same as our state of mind. I recall speaking to a man in a wheelchair (he was our uni’s H&S Officer) who had become disabled in an industrial accident. A member of the class asked him if he wished it had never happened. He said certainly not. If it had not happened he would have not met the nurse who became his loving wife and he would not have the three beautiful children that he had.

s.



 
Lol! That's brilliant - "Behold!" sayeth the lord, "Obey me, or I will condemn you to an eternity of cheap package holidays!" :)

The purgatory contract has been won by ryanair :p

s.
 
Lol! That's brilliant - "Behold!" sayeth the lord, "Obey me, or I will condemn you to an eternity of cheap package holidays!" :)

Forty years wandering around in the wilderness . . . or . . . like I said in another thread, eleven years being a workaholic.

Actually, I have experienced holidays before that felt like hell to me. This was halfway through my workaholic years when I didn't appreciate holidays. I would go on holidays against my will. I wanted to be at home but my family wanted me to go out.

Yeah just imagine that. You imagine a cruel God that condemns people to eternal torture by fire but instead He/he banishes you to a tourist resort that has nothing that appeals to you. It is filled with people who would rather relax than work. Unproductive, lazy, decadent, inefficient and despicable trash!!!! You're a workaholic who enjoys his career, doesn't want to miss a single minute of it and you hate holidays.

Noooooooo!!!!!!!! . . . . :eek:

To be honest, that was what I thought of people who went on holidays . . . unproductive, lazy, decadent, inefficient and despicable trash . . . that was until I needed one myself. I considered it a sin to have fun. So you see . . . I've already been to hell.:eek:

I’m not quite sure what salty means by “Heaven and hell are whatever you want them to be” and I don’t want to speak for him. But for my part I don’t think I would say that heaven and hell are whatever you want them to be.They are created by our mind; our relative success or failure does not depend on wishing, but, I believe, starts with contemplation.

I concede that maybe "want" isn't and wasn't the right word. I consider heaven and hell to be subjective, and saying they are what you want them to be wouldn't fit in with that concept. They are subjective in that heaven/hell aren't the same for all people. We are scared, frightened and intimidated by different things. We find happiness in different things. Some people enjoy dancing. I don't. Some people want/need a nice-looking, powerful car or 4WD. For others a "piece of trash" for a car would do.

It's a question of what would make your experience in life or the afterlife happy or horrible -- not a question of want or desire.
 
No, it means that there is no need to try and clean up any messes.

It means that if we want justice and right in this world, we have to make it ourselves, instead of hoping for some distant divine retribution.

We can't just believe in justice, or fairness, or similar - we have to make them real ourselves.
 
It means that if we want justice and right in this world, we have to make it ourselves, instead of hoping for some distant divine retribution.

We can't just believe in justice, or fairness, or similar - we have to make them real ourselves.
...I think it is a combination of both...
 
I said:
It means that if we want justice and right in this world, we have to make it ourselves, instead of hoping for some distant divine retribution.

We can't just believe in justice, or fairness, or similar - we have to make them real ourselves.
...I think it is a combination of both...
Namaste I,B, Q,

In my belief system that is about right...

'G!d can only do for us what G!d can do thru us.'
 
'G!d can only do for us what G!d can do thru us.'

I have a slightly different way of seeing God's role, influence and agenda in the world. I think of God as an individual. He is a member of our community. The more we include Him the more influence He will have. He is a participant. We must make room for God in our lives. We promote individual human rights but we seem to ignore the individual rights of God. Surely, God would want his individuality to be appreciated. But we have imposed a collectivism that is oppressive. The majority of the sentient community is human. We have arrogantly imposed the collectivism of this human majority on God and marginalised someone who is different to the rest of us, but who is just as valuable.
 
I have a slightly different way of seeing God's role, influence and agenda in the world. I think of God as an individual. He is a member of our community.
Not just a member of the community, but also all the community, plus the community hall, plus the environment the community exists in.
I think your body would have a problem functioning if your individual cells had a similar philosophy.

The more we include Him the more influence He will have.
Awfully presumptuous there salty. God has influence over us all whether we believe he exists or not.IMO.
If not then he is not God.
He is a participant. We must make room for God in our lives. We promote individual human rights but we seem to ignore the individual rights of God. Surely, God would want his individuality to be appreciated. But we have imposed a collectivism that is oppressive. The majority of the sentient community is human. We have arrogantly imposed the collectivism of this human majority on God and marginalised someone who is different to the rest of us, but who is just as valuable.
God has no individuality.
God is a gestalt.
We are a part of that Gestalt.
By gestalt I mean a greater entity made up of many parts.
The only problem here is that people don't recognize this due to the blindness of individuality and pride (basically self-ishness).
The collectivism of humanity is another issue entirely and has to do with politics and manipulation of the masses using propaganda to create consent.
 
God has influence over us all whether we believe he exists or not.IMO.

We have a choice to embrace his influence.

If not then he is not God.

I think not. God doesn't need to have absolute control over people to be considered God. I would think that not needing to is what makes him God.

God has no individuality. God is a gestalt.
We are a part of that Gestalt. By gestalt I mean a greater entity made up of many parts.

Well that's a completely different concept of God you have there!

The only problem here is that people don't recognize this due to the blindness of individuality and pride (basically self-ishness).

I don't see individuality or selfishness as a negative or detrimental thing. It has its place. If your individuality isn't respected, then you are in danger of being made a slave of an oppressive and repressive collective.

The collectivism of humanity is another issue entirely and has to do with politics and manipulation of the masses using propaganda to create consent.

Well, then, you recognise that the collective can be just as "evil" as individuality. I am not going to support an evil collective and there are so many evil collectives in this world. So which are you going to choose, collectivism or individualism?

Gestalt? God is a gestalt and we are part of it? It's like you're saying that God is a collective. I consider it dangerous to say that God is a collective. That means that any group out there can proclaim, "we are God" and we are expected to take their word for it. Whatever their logic or reasoning, if people think they're God, who knows what they might do with that idea? Are they going to start marching out in the streets and take over our government?

We must stop this gestalt before it spreads! I fear that too many people will think they're God!
 
Gestalt? God is a gestalt and we are part of it? It's like you're saying that God is a collective. I consider it dangerous to say that God is a collective. That means that any group out there can proclaim, "we are God" and we are expected to take their word for it. Whatever their logic or reasoning, if people think they're God, who knows what they might do with that idea? Are they going to start marching out in the streets and take over our government?

We must stop this gestalt before it spreads! I fear that too many people will think they're God!
Said with tongue firmly in cheek, eh?! wot.

Cheekiness aside,IMO:
God is everything, yet is also transcendent and above the creation.
So that would make me of the panentheistic persuasion.
We can choose to be aware of God and the underlying unity of creation, or we can choose to ignore that.
Tis your individual prerogative there.
Don't let your pride get in the way.;)
 
Said with tongue firmly in cheek, eh?! wot.

Discussions on theoretical matters like the one above, particularly one with exclamations involved, usually aren't serious.;)

Cheekiness aside,IMO:
God is everything, yet is also transcendent and above the creation.
So that would make me of the panentheistic persuasion.
We can choose to be aware of God and the underlying unity of creation, or we can choose to ignore that.

What I get from the present discussion is that whether "God" refers to an individual or collective, it is always going to refer to a concept of "greatness" that is above all else.

Tis your individual prerogative there.
Don't let your pride get in the way.;)

The greatness of God would be compromised otherwise. A great God must allow people to choose him. The individuality and humanity of a person must be left intact.
 
The greatness of God would be compromised otherwise. A great God must allow people to choose him. The individuality and humanity of a person must be left intact.
That would be what all this free will hullaballu is all about now then....right.;)
Just because we are aware that we are a part of a Universal Mind/Consciousness does not convert us into borgs or commies or something like that.
We are still this fragment of individuality, but what gives me solace is the knowledge that I am a fragment of a larger whole, like a holograph. And so is everyone else.
For some reason it helps me to be kind to others, even when it would be logical and reasonable not to be.
 
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