Foundationist Manifesto

iBrian

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One key problem I've had is communicating my own personal spiritual beliefs. "Panentheist" seems to get close, but feels an awkward term that can easily leave more questions unanswered than answered when using it.

This is especially when using the term "God", which comes with so many inferences to different people, and is especially problematical if like myself you consider God to be beyond all human description.

This is even more so when you look at religious beliefs through history, and see how God is described in personal and cultural terms that tend to describe personal and cultural values of the people, rather than God.

Originally in 2003 I set up a site called Foundationist.org to try and explore these beliefs, by using the world's religions as a basis to understand ourselves and our relationship to the Divine - as different cultures saw it.

Unfortunately, I couldn't even begin to describe what I meant then, and so quickly replaced the site with comparative-religion.com - now interfaith.org.

I think we've had a lot of interesting and mature discussions among a community that is generally interesting and mature, so it's probably time to test whether I can define "Foundationism/Foundationist" as a system, and whether it can work.

There are only two basic pillars of faith with Foundationism:

1. Aspire to be selfless and respect if not love other people
2. God cannot be comprehended by the human mind.

The term "Foundationist" admittedly comes from the TV sci-fi series Bablyon 5, and there briefly mentions a movement that seeks to share in the foundations of human spiritual belief to find common ground. That always seemed an aspiration worth repeating.

Additionally, this also infers that all human religious belief and experience can be useful for learning more about ourselves and our place in the universe, and how we relate to the Divine.

Even more so, it cannot be an organised belief system - it is a point of view, an acceptance of basic principles, which can be shared among people with otherwise very different spiritual viewpoints.

And it's an inclusive system - one that does not different between people on any basis, and by nature implies everyone is Foundationist, unless they specifically declare themselves otherwise - on the grounds that belief in the golden rule, and acceptance upon the incomprehensible nature of God - the Divine - are common and potentially universal.

And so, the question is, is such a manifesto worth describing as a system of belief, or simply a principle? Is it acceptable as a label, or is it's inability to describe and explain therefore a problem for those who demand answers first?
 
I like it, but it feels incomplete, Brian. If I read the manifesto, it is because I want to know about Foundationists; but it doesn't satisfy that question. Also, what if you went with a more Toaish usage for God, simultaneously explaining who foundationists are. Perhaps the word 'God' is too typecast a term to declare God as incomprehensible, since it automatically carries with it connections with many predefined notions. What if you said something like "What or whom underlies the foundations, which connects all things and caused all things, which truly is incomprehensible and without explanation." Or something less previously defined, and something that explains to me who you are, since you say you're a Foundationist.

Of course, it is ok to leave it like it is; but you did ask.
 
2. God cannot be comprehended by the human mind.

Obviously the missing word here is "fully". I think God can be profoundly experienced and understood within the limitations that our bodies, senses and mind allow.

But how much of anything can we "fully" comprehend? Whether it is God, or a grain of sand, "full" comprehension is beyond our grasp.

Once again, not knowing becomes our refuge.
 
Good pointers - I figure rather than a complete manifesto then begin with developing a starting framework.

I used to specifically avoid the word "God" when talking about spirituality because it brings with it so many different connotations to different people - tried using terms such as Universal Mind/Consciousness/Unconscious or the Divine.

It's certainly a Taoist perception, though I note from conversations here it's not unique among faiths, with bananabrain and Thomas both making statements to similar effect within their own faiths.

It would also be nice to find a way to find common ground with Buddhists more actively - I note sometimes they can get quite miffed at being described as a "religion" with the claim of their being no god (excluding south-east worship of Buddha as a god), even though it appears to acknowledge transcendental forces at work (ie, Karma).

And as citizen rightly points out, "fully" is probably a more operative word, though potentially contentious because that would beg the question as to which parts of God/Divinity/Universal Mind/Great Spirit/The Force can be described and understood. :)
 
And as citizen rightly points out, "fully" is probably a more operative word, though potentially contentious because that would beg the question as to which parts of God/Divinity/Universal Mind/Great Spirit/The Force can be described and understood. :)
We only see in part, and until we evolve more or awaken more, that is the best we will have.
Our containers can only hold so much at present.
 
1. Aspire to be selfless and respect if not love other people

What does "selfless" mean here?

2. God cannot be comprehended by the human mind.

The Foundationist belief does seem to be theistic. Probably you should change this to: "God exists, but cannot be defined by the human mind."

Unless, of course, you are trying to include G'Kar's quirky (somewhat atheistic or possibly mystical) views on God?

The term "Foundationist" admittedly comes from the TV sci-fi series Bablyon 5

Yay, B5!


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
"Panentheist"...

"You are a person who believes in more than one God"??

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news here, Brian, but... erm...

it's been done before, lad...

(Of course I'm joking).

What is wrong with God? You might scare some people off, but if they're not mature or intelligent enough to consider the big picture, and the multifaceted aspects, a neologism isn't gonna help them, is it?

In my opinion, I do not believe you have sufficiently defined Foundationist/ism as a system, and from the little you have given us here, nor do I believe it can work.

I like the idea that there are but two pillars, but... the words Boaz, and Joachim (sp?) spring to mind... and besides, the first pillar really should be two... 1"aspiring to be selfless", and 2"having respect for others" are not the same thing.

I have no issue with "aiming to respect other people", but... I do not understand what "an aspiration to be selfless" means. Aspiring to be... not-me? Aspiring to "No self"? Nah. I like me. Me and my ego are getting on fine. You want me to change, become something else, to become ... less? Can't do it. Sorry. I already aspire to "know self". I can't not-know now -- it's too late!

And, well... to be honest, I can't accept pillar 2, (3?!) either. "God cannot be comprehended by the human mind". I believe God CAN be comprehended by the human mind. It is not my fault, or Gods, or yours, that the big enlightenment hasn't been yours yet. I know you've been looking for it for years, and I'm sorry you haven't found it yet, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, that God is not a reality for some people, that God cannot be comprehended by the human mind. It just means your mind hasn't comprehended it.

And, as a label... well... what use is another label? We have lots of them already, and look at how much trouble they cause!

So... for me... nah... it doesn't work yet, Brian, but, if you want to start up a NRM, and you're looking for a co-pilot... ;)
 
There are only two basic pillars of faith with Foundationism:

1. Aspire to be selfless and respect if not love other people
2. God cannot be comprehended by the human mind.

This leaves the possibility of opting out of love.
But love is central to many (most?) peoples' understanding of God. In fact it is often said that God is love.
If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate. 1 Corinthians 13
Without love IMHO we are left with an academic discourse.

The second pillar leaves out more than it adds. Is there nothing we can say about God? Is he creator / sustainer? Is he 'interactive'? Is he good, or does he transcend good and evil? I think we can't leave these questions on the side as they will affect our whole approach to God.

Of course the more detail that gets added, the more there is to argue about (SIGH) but still, "many paths, one truth", eh?

-cliff
 
What does "selfless" mean here?

I suspect it means being altruistic and non-judgmental.

The Foundationist belief does seem to be theistic. Probably you should change this to: "God exists, but cannot be defined by the human mind."

I would prefer this. "If God exists, it is obvious he/she/it cannot be experienced, observed, or even proven to exist."

Unless, of course, you are trying to include G'Kar's quirky (somewhat atheistic or possibly mystical) views on God?

My concept of God is the Force or Cosmic Laws that created the Universe. That God may be inanimate, invisible, inaudible, non-measurable, non-conscious, non-cognitive, and in no way defined by the characteristics of humans (evolved bipedal apes.) Needless to say, this is my view of God. I deny Anthropomorphic Gods designed on Humans.

Amergin
 
Brian: There are only two basic pillars of faith with Foundationism:

1. Aspire to be selfless and respect if not love other people
2. God cannot be comprehended by the human mind.

Why do #1? - to please the Incomprehensible; cause it feels nice; because karma will reward one; we are all connected, etc. - needs fleshing out.

As for #2 - there is more to the mind than the "human" part and that part can know "God" or gods or reality etc.
 
The term "Foundationist" admittedly comes from the TV sci-fi series Bablyon 5, and there briefly mentions a movement that seeks to share in the foundations of human spiritual belief to find common ground. That always seemed an aspiration worth repeating.

Good to see a B5 reference! I personally embrace the Minbari belief that all our minds are facets of the emerging self-awareness of the cosmos...
 
our minds are facets of the emerging self-awareness of the cosmos...

Also stated by Bill Hicks. :)

Interesting that quantum dictates that existence exists in a state of supposition until it's observed. It's as if the universe does not become real until it is observed.
 
Brian,

Existence is defined as a duality -- an observer and a thing being observed. It is hard to imagine a universe without duality.
 
Interesting that quantum dictates that existence exists in a state of supposition until it's observed. It's as if the universe does not become real until it is observed.

Define real. Define existence. Define observation.

You seem to be implying that nothing can be real if it isn't "experienced" or "measured." I would agree that reality is all about observation, measurement and experience -- that an object, entity or phenomenon cannot have meaning (existence) without the possibility of identifying the nature of its relationship or interaction with other things.

Brian,

Existence is defined as a duality -- an observer and a thing being observed. It is hard to imagine a universe without duality.

I think the universe can exist without an observer and subject being observed. The universe contains both. I think it is reality that requires duality, not the universe. The universe contains reality.
 
I would prefer this. "If God exists, it is obvious he/she/it cannot be experienced, observed, or even proven to exist."

I've experienced "God"... numerous times.

I'm experiencing it right now.

I just don't describe "it" as a deity... it's beyond me to describe.

But love (compassion) is a major component of it.
 
I'm not implying anything about observation - merely reiterating one of the profound conundrums of quatum physics that particles will not fall into a specific state until observed. :)
 
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