History of Christianity

Well, l didnt want to use the usual hercules, apollo, adonis or persephone iconography to state the obvious..
And again I stress the same point. There's no similarity at all. This is affirmed not only by Christian sources, but by a stream of authorities of the Sophia Perennis and commentators on comparative religion ... René Guénon, Frithjof Schuon, Titus Burkhart, Martin Lings.

Also one should take note of the influences that were formative on Christianity, the primary one being Stoicism with regard to its ethics, and Platonism with regard to its philosophy — again, these are a matter of record, and widely attested to. But the character and doctrine of Christianity being derived by the syncretism of pagan belief? I don't think any serious school of scholarship supports that.

Yes, so extreme that refutations transformed later into witch hunts?!
The Montanists, like the Cathars etc., were followers of a very severe doctrine which joe public would never have been able to adhere to — celibacy, segregation of the sexes, tiered hierarchies of salvation possibility, rituals of purity...

... suffice to say, had they won the day, Christianity would be a far more austere and militant organisation than the one come down to us historically! So whilst I decry the wrong-doings of our past, I breathe a sigh of relief that the opposition never gained the ascendancy.

The silversmiths were narked back then werent they? You are back projecting Christian influence of the 4th century onto the 2nd.
Oh really? Might I refer you to the following:
"Now at that time there arose no small disturbance about the way of the Lord. For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver temples for Diana, brought no small gain to the craftsmen; Whom he calling together, with the workmen of like occupation, said: Sirs, you know that our gain is by this trade; And you see and hear, that this Paul by persuasion hath drawn away a great multitude, not only of Ephesus, but almost of all Asia, saying: They are not gods which are made by hands..."
Acts 19:23-26

And note this was written in the first century, not the second, and certainly not the fourth!

l was just looking at it from a wider dimension; as to why Jesus became so popular there...
Maybe because the doctrine was so much more appealing?

Thomas
 
I cannot believe that you are unclear that the point at issue is not the campaign of Crassus, about which I made no comment, but the cult of Mithras.

Your post made claims about this, stated as fact, that the cult of Mithras originated from this campaign. This statement is not found in any ancient source -- as you know, it seems -- so to respond to that correction in this manner is not a good idea. Don't do this, hmm?
Your comment was that NONE of what I said was in the ancient texts, a sweeping rejection of every single thing I asserted. If you did not mean to be so extremely hostile, then you did not express yourself well.
Let's stick to facts, hmm?
Interpreting "absence to evidence" as "evidence of absence" is not just sticking to the facts, either; in general, in ancient history we always have fewer solid facts than we would like. It is reasonable to fill in gaps by looking at analogous cases where we have more information. It is not reasonable to assume that Mithraism was invented in Rome just because that is where we get our first good observations.

I first observed my friend's pickup truck in his garage. I know nothing about any prior history of it. I presume, however, that it was manufactured in an assembly-line-style plant, since I know of many analogous cases. It is wholly
unreasonable to assume that it was built in his garage, just because that is where I first saw it. If I knew that he had a history of building custom vehicles in his garage, that would of course be different.
This seems to have no connection to the point at issue, which is Mithras.
It is one of the analogous cases to look at for clues as to how the gaps in our knowledge can most reasonably be filled.
These are very general claims, which it would be cruel to ask you to substantiate from primary data. I think you are suggesting that since cults like Cybele even in Republican times came from outside, therefore Mithras might have done so likewise. Of course this is true, and is one reason why Cumont took the view he did. But I think we must stick to what the data actually says, and this is against it.
The data is SILENT about the prior history of Mithraism; you do not have any source at all saying "Yes, we invented this cult here in Rome" so it is wrong to say that any data is "against" a prior history for it. Looking at other cases like Cybele, as you point out, or Christ or Anubis, as I pointed out, tells us what the typical histories of such cults were: importation to Rome, not invention there; I would go further than to say that Mithras "might" have come from elsewhere, and say that it should be the default assumption, in the absence of a single known case of invention within the city.
I agree, I didn't quite follow the logic; but I suspect the problem is a sheer lack of data for scholars to work with. You will find it in the standard reference, Manfred Clauss, "The Roman cult of Mithras".
OK. I can't fault Clauss for trying to come up with some explanation.
Isn't this stating speculation as fact, tho? We have no information whatever on what led Plutarch to state what he did. Let's stick to the facts.
It is stating speculation as speculation. You are free to make your own assessments of whether Clauss or I have come up with a more probable back-story for Plutarch's misapprehension.
Interesting; which primary Persian source describes Mihr as sprung from a rock? (The reason I ask is that I have yet to find anyone online with any knowledge of Persian sources; and the one source I know, Elias Vartabed, says something different).
I'm not good on the primary sources here either; the Avesta? My understanding is that this was not a piece of rock standing on an existing Earth, but rather the Original Object, like the Cosmic Egg which was broken open to create multiplicity in the universe according to the Orphic myth. Hormuzd commanding the rock to break open and Mihr to emerge was the first act of creation, analogous to "Let There Be Light!" or Gaia and Ouranos separating from their primordial embrace or the Big Bang, depending on which creation myth you like better.
This sounds like the Ulansey theory.
That's his name, right. I didn't pause to Google it, not sure which search terms would turn it up.
You are right to say, tho, that it is merely speculation based on no data; and I entirely endorse the idea of NOT speculating like this. It just does no good.
I entirely disagree. Speculating is what we need to do, if we are to get any real sense of what is going on from incomplete data; it is necessary, though, to be humble and acknowledge that one's speculations are not "fact".
 
Nativeastral:
l was just looking at it from a wider dimension; as to why Jesus became so popular there...

Thomas:
Maybe because the doctrine was so much more appealing?

The success of Christianity might be a lot simpler than either 'linked mythology' or 'unique doctrine.'

The astrological and mystical symbols for a stage-by-stage process of spiritual growth, which Taijasi refers to, is a kind of high-brow Paganism (it seems to me) which would have had some appeal to any high-brow religious thinker of the early Christian era - of whatever religion, Christianity included. Some appeal (whether ultimately a compelling one or not).

The self-transformative world of the individuating self, which Nativeastral refers to, has strong shadings of Joseph Campbell's The Masks of God and James Fraser's The Golden Bough. This attempts to place the origins of modern selfhood in the mutual Pagan/Christian context of the late-Roman world. Plus throw-in some modern gender-bending ... to include some very contemporary notions of identity-formation. And - while this is probably a modern back-projection upon the past - it is a very interesting idea (even should it have zero historical basis) because it links personal-identity to religious-strangeness as a rather earthy model (piety/devotion) for how we (today) can grow as an individual.
(A transformation physically felt, and certainly far less ethereal and intangible than the one offered by Taijasi.)

The uniqueness of Christianity, two millennia ago, (it seems to me) is that it did both. It provided high-brow answers for the mystical-minded, but its ritual practice was very physically satisfying in the earthy way which Nature-religions of the day were satisfying to their participants.

But (to my mind) Christianity provided something more than these (ethereal and earthy) rites which Pagan devotions provided to their own worshippers. And it was this 'something more' - and not syncretism - which reached beyond the mere 'appeal' (Christianity's ad-campaign), trumpeting a brave new religion. More, in at least two historically new ways:
1. A new style of (practical) religious organization.
2. How Monotheism (ultimately) changes a person's way of thinking and interacting with the world.

& & &

Rodney Stark's sociological approach to early Christian history (The Rise of Christianity: How the Obscure, Marginal, Jesus Movement Became the Dominant Religious Force and Cities of God: The Real Story of How Christianity Became an Urban Movement and Conquered Rome) is very down-to-earth (despite all the statistics he utilizes). Very common-sense minded.

Sandra Collins (SLIS, Univ. of Pittsburgh):
Theories abound regarding the growth of Christianity in its first 500 years - that it succeeded most among the urban poor, that women may or may not have had a place, that it bred zealotry. Stark (sociology, Univ. of Washington) considers the theories of many of the classic Christian historians (Harnack, Meeks, and Wilckens, to name a few), subjecting their historical speculations to the rigors of social science as a means of ascertaining both their validity and their value. Through this method, Stark finds Christianity to be a "revitalization movement," a response to social crises. Those crises affected the wealthy as well as the poor, female as well as male, Greek as well as Jew. In Christianity, "doctrine took on actual flesh," and all seekers not only found a place but flourished in the culturally strange (for its time) dynamic of the nonethnic Christian community. Stark provides compelling reading, adding depth and coherence to the often nebulous hyperbole of historical hypotheses ...
(Library Journal review of Stark's Rise of Christianity.)

Book Summary (from my local Library System):
... Because it offered a new perspective on familiar concepts and was not linked to ethnicity, Christianity had a large following among persons seeking to assimilate into the dominant culture, mainly Hellenized Jews. The oversupply of women in Christian communities - due partly to the respect and protection they received - led to intermarriages with pagans, hence more conversions, and to a high fertility rate. Stark points out, too, the role played by selflessness and faith. Amidst the epidemics, fires, and other disasters that beleaguered Greco-Roman cities, Christian communities were a stronghold of mutual aid, which resulted in a survival rate far greater than that of the pagans ...

This provides just a few of the practical reasons, Stark gives, as to why Christianity prevailed as it did. However, regarding doctrine (whether inclusive or exclusive of Pagan tenets of faith) ...

Christian doctrine - according to Stark - had remarkably little to do with Christianity's (not so surprising) sociopolitical success.

& & &

Monotheism, by its nature, is severely contemptuous of all symbolic systems. Even those symbols used by the faithful to describe the One True God. Symbolic worlds are 'eternal' and 'cyclic.' If a person actually rejects that world-view, all they have left - by which to contextualize their beliefs - is the immediate concrete world and real human history. The day-to-day physical and interpersonal world. A world in which the values of science and ethics will eventually (and inevitably) prevail.

Staying with Rodney Stark (For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery) ...

Gail Hudson:
For the Glory of God challenges numerous assumptions about how religion affected the course of history. As a professor of Sociology and Comparative Religions at the University of Washington, Rodney Stark (The Rise of Christianity) has a unique ability to write like a chatty Social Scientist while delving into complicated theories on religion and history. Here he shows how beliefs in God - whether it was through the filter of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam - provoked and fueled human history. Of course many readers won’t dicker with his evidence that religious fervor influenced the witch hunts. But readers may be surprised by Stark’s assertion that the persecution of witches actually had more to do with the conflicts between the world’s major religions than the oppressive beliefs of fanatical clergy or sexist men. He also asserts that the same religious leaders who were the first to persecute witches were also the first to take a stand against slavery. And, contrary to many historical theories, Stark claims that religion may have been the driving force behind the emergence of modern science. Stark’s fascinating conclusions may rile conventional historians. Indeed, Stark was dismayed to discover how many historians "dismiss the role of religion in producing ‘good’ things such as the rise of science or the end of slavery, and the corresponding efforts to blame religion for practically everything ‘bad.’" ...
(Amazon.com Book Review.)

Most of Christianity is symbolic nonsense (i.e. pagan, in origin).

It is that part of Christianity which is specifically non-symbolic ...
Which (in my view):
- Changed people's (received) reality.
- Changed people's (received) attitudes toward other human beings.
And which ...

- Utterly changed the world.
 
Now if it would just utterly change the world the way Christ intended, and for the better ...

... or perhaps that's totally unreasonable and - asking too much. :confused:

OR, MAYBE ... that's part of what all those other religions are (also) here for. Wow, what if all religions are meant (like PEOPLE) to learn to cooperate, to help change the world for the better, and to learn that all this hoopla about being UNIQUE is NOT as important as seeing what points are held in common.

Identities, sometimes, are best forged not by reaching into the past and clinging to what has divided and given one (or one's ancestors, one's antecedents) that unique (and perhaps exaggerated) sense of self-importance ... but by learning to join hands in one great Circle, and by getting back to Honoring the Sacred, Whom and which exists everywhere - within each & every ONE, and also at the CENTER.

But then, I think we said that, I think the ethereal and *intangible* (???) STARS in the heavens can help us to do precisely this, with their Pagan and ETERNAL rhythms and cycles ... while the various practices of/upon the planet help to anchor such recognitions in the mundane or practical awareness. Sometimes our Circle changes shape or alignment, and other symbols are formed, Christianity recognizing some of these.

When I hear the cry for "we are soooo unique," and when I hear the refusal to consider syncretism in the past, let alone the present and future, a yellow flag is raised. The points at which we cannot see past our artificial, humanly imposed barriers, and acknowledge the Christ within - regardless of which point in Human history we choose to examine - THESE points are also moments that unite us ... in our shortcomings and failures.

In the last analysis, if we cling to the differences and divisions, we can be certain that the future we have prepared for ourselves is not what Source is seeking, for this kind of awareness only proves that we have learned how best to distinguish ourselves - FROM Source, FROM (True) Self and FROM each other.

Time to keep on moving, get past this bottom portion or arc along the recurring Sacred Circle/Spiral ... and remember that others stand next to us, all around the Circle, locked arm in arm - even other Circles existing, where bonds are long-since forged, strong and reliable ... and some Circles, pertaining more to the future and our as-yet unrealized Ideals, being only possible but not complete.

Let's talk and not forget about possibilities, eh, even as we discuss history. Christ surely did that; Christ knew where we're headed ... and How, Why - even How to *get* there. Has everything to do with Astrology, has plenty to do with being born in/to the Cave of the Heart, and in one way or another these Divine, timeless Truths are enacted over & over again, each Sunday, and every day.
 
Taijasi

It may be arcane of me, in our "postmodern" world, to enunciated a belief in human progress. But I do.

And if there is a clear 'cause' for that progress, I put some value upon - and (conditional) faith in - that cause. It has the ring of Truth to me.

& & &

Newborns of Homo sapiens of 40,000 years ago (who, as hunters, out-competed the Neanderthals into extinction) have the same brain as do children of the first agriculturalists of 10,000 years ago. Whose offspring are born with the same brain as Buddha and Confucius and Socrates and all people of 2500 years ago. Who have the same brain as human infants do in 2010. The same hardwired genetic code.

But ...
(and this is very important)
... these humans from different eras each encountered a different environment.

Different physical environment: a severe ice-age, millennia of warmer or cooler, wetter or drier climate, forests or savannahs.
Different social environment: nomadic social-organization or one fixed in one locale, loosely-organized/low-population bands or highly-organized/high-population agrarian city-states, or marauding raiders/plunders or vast centrally-controlled empires or open-trading cities, feudal fiefdoms or nation-states.

Same brain, but different environment.

Response to our environment is not hardwired.
(Not in humans nor in most animals.)
We adapt. And, as a species, our consciousness evolves from generation to generation ... into the deep future.

When we figure some-troubling-things out - and finally get good at them - we then move on to more difficult things. This is how human consciousness evolves.

& & &

Taijasi

I do not believe in eternal values.
I only believe in progressive adaptation.

Idealism be damned.

If ideas do not 'work' in a concrete and practical way to construct a better world ... these ideas are probably a delusion. Are probably just ... getting in the way of actual human progress.

& & &

It is not a matter of 'this religion only' as the source of productive human ideas.

It is pragmatic.
- Which aspects of Religion-A build a better world and which aspects of Religion-A are delusive, a hindrance to that better world.
- And which aspects of Religion-B build a better world and which aspects of Religion-B are delusive, a hindrance ...

I am not siding with one religion or another.
I am siding with human progress.
 
Hi Taijasi —

Now if it would just utterly change the world the way Christ intended, and for the better ...
As we see it ... all you need is love.

OR, MAYBE ... that's part of what all those other religions are (also) here for. Wow, what if all religions are meant (like PEOPLE) to learn to cooperate, to help change the world for the better, and to learn that all this hoopla about being UNIQUE is NOT as important as seeing what points are held in common.
I tend to disagree, I think it's both: for each only serves to illuminate the other ... ignore one, and you lose sight of both. Love delights in the otherness of the other, as well as the common natures.

But then, I think we said that, I think the ethereal and *intangible* (???) STARS in the heavens can help us to do precisely this, with their Pagan and ETERNAL rhythms and cycles ... while the various practices of/upon the planet help to anchor such recognitions in the mundane or practical awareness.
In the history of Christian, it's a given that the soul transcends the cosmological ... thus whilst masters such as Albertus Magnus, and many others, made deep studies of the astrology, cosmology, etc., their gaze was fixed on the higher.

Consider the story of Martha and Mary ... Martha was taken up with the world, mary transcends it.

Hebrews 9:11
"But Christ, being come an high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, that is, not of this creation"

St Paul again:
"Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body."
Romans 8:21-23

Might I add that by 'creature' St Paul implies the whole physical/material order. They wait on us, for all creation centres upon the human, in that all levels of being: mineral, flora and fauna, are contained within the body.

It is we in Christ who will divinise the cosmos, not the other way round. It's love that makes the world(s) go round, after all ...

... When I hear the cry for "we are soooo unique," and when I hear the refusal to consider syncretism in the past, let alone the present and future, a yellow flag is raised.
There is a world of difference between syncretism and synthesis. Christianity is the synthesis of the Hebrew Revelation and Hellenic Philosophy.

Christ knew where we're headed ... and How, Why - even How to *get* there. Has everything to do with Astrology,
Oh, it far transcends that ... 'love springs eternal' and all that ...

... has plenty to do with being born in/to the Cave of the Heart, and in one way or another these Divine, timeless Truths are enacted over & over again, each Sunday, and every day.
Yes indeed ... The Liturgy of the Gift ...

Thomas
 
Hi Penelope —

The success of Christianity might be a lot simpler than either 'linked mythology' or 'unique doctrine.'
I don't see how ... for something to succeed of fail, it must have some order of proposition that either attracts or doesn't ... otherwise the term becomes an empty shell.

The self-transformative world of the individuating self ... This attempts to place the origins of modern selfhood in the mutual Pagan/Christian context of the late-Roman world.
That's self-evident. The notion of the 'self' or the 'person' as we understand it today emerged from Christianity, it was a marked evolution of the ideas of 'self' in Greek or Roman thought.
The impetus was, I think, twofold:
The first is the idea of the person as a soul/body entity, a holistic rather than a dualistic notion, according to Scripture.
The second was the development of Christology ... in seeking to understand the nature of Christ, the philosophers came to an understanding of 'self'.

The uniqueness of Christianity, two millennia ago, (it seems to me) is that it did both. It provided high-brow answers for the mystical-minded, but its ritual practice was very physically satisfying in the earthy way which Nature-religions of the day were satisfying to their participants.
Since the Enlightenment however, science has been 'dumbing down' the vision of the 'mystical' or 'metaphysical' to mere empirical measurement.

Today people aren't even aware of the philosophical and metaphysical contribution of Christianity ... and today, people are so dumbed down and blinded by the glamours of technology and empirical measurement that they can't even focus on the big ideas anyway.

Who reads Gregory of Nyssa on 'spacing'?
Who reads Maximus the Confessor on 'movement' or "multiplicity?'
Who asks the question 'why does anything exist at all?'

Materialist consumerism has made addicts of us all.

A new style of (practical) religious organization ... 2. How Monotheism (ultimately) changes a person's way of thinking and interacting with the world.

Christianity is not the only monotheist system, so it's not monotheism per se that changed the world, its the Christian vision, which is Trinitarian.

Stark (sociology, Univ. of Washington) considers the theories of many of the classic Christian historians (Harnack, Meeks, and Wilckens, to name a few), subjecting their historical speculations to the rigors of social science as a means of ascertaining both their validity and their value.
I do not deny the value of sociology — but here I would suggest Stark over-reaches its remit. This is modern reductionist empiricism surely? By what authority does he evaluate Scripture? Certainly the sociologist can ofer comment from an historical perspective, but certainly sociology as a science does not possess the means to evaluate either the validity or the value of doctrines.

Through this method, Stark finds Christianity to be a "revitalization movement," a response to social crises. Those crises affected the wealthy as well as the poor, female as well as male, Greek as well as Jew.
I think that's rero-fitting, and somewhat inaccurate, on two counts:
The first is that society was not in any particular crisis — life was hard, but that's life. And to infer global crises ... what ones, specifically?
The second is that Christianity, despised by Greek and Jew alike, was subject to persecution ... so why a community which suffered a greater crisis than those around it was seen as attractive, I'm not so sure.

In Christianity, "doctrine took on actual flesh," and all seekers not only found a place but flourished in the culturally strange (for its time) dynamic of the nonethnic Christian community.
And that's the point — the doctrine shaped the ethic, the morality and the sociology of Christianity.

The oversupply of women in Christian communities - due partly to the respect and protection they received ...
That sounds like pure invention to me. Where are the figures?

Stark points out, too, the role played by selflessness and faith. Amidst the epidemics, fires, and other disasters that beleaguered Greco-Roman cities, Christian communities were a stronghold of mutual aid, which resulted in a survival rate far greater than that of the pagans ...
This thesis does not however sufficiently explain the 'epidemic' spread of Christianity, it seems to me ... nor does history. If the thesis was true, then such movements would have occurred more often in the wake of the plagues, etc., of the following millenium ... in fact quite the reverse was often the case, a severe dose of nihilism ... no, I'm not sure this thesis stands up at all well.

Nor was the world in a state of constant disaster, as would be necessary for the speed and the spread ...

Christian doctrine - according to Stark - had remarkably little to do with Christianity's (not so surprising) sociopolitical success.
In the words of the philosopher ... bollocks ... Christian doctrine shaped the community's sociopolitical message, where else would 'Christianity' come from, if not its doctrine?

Monotheism, by its nature, is severely contemptuous of all symbolic systems.
No it's not. Of course it's not. Whoever told you that?

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all possess a profound symbolism ... this statement just flies in the face of all the evidence.

Are you sure ypou understand what 'symbol' means?

If a person actually rejects that world-view, all they have left - by which to contextualize their beliefs - is the immediate concrete world and real human history ... A world in which the values of science and ethics will eventually (and inevitably) prevail.
And by rejecting the Christian world-view, as you have done ... all you're left with is social commentary and the observation of external phenomena.

Here he shows how beliefs in God - whether it was through the filter of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam - provoked and fueled human history.
Isn't that a statement of the blindingly obvious ... what else will provoke and fuel human history besides the most dynamic force prevalent at the time?

Most of Christianity is symbolic nonsense (i.e. pagan, in origin).
well it patently isn't, so again I don't know where you're getting this information from? Is Aristotle nonsense? Is Plato nonsense ... to write off the pagan world as nonsense is just ridiculous.

And is the Bible nonsense too, for that is the source and foundation of Christian symbolism and epistemology?

... and without it, without its implication, Christ the 'social reformer' can only be, as C.S. Lewis so famously observed, "Bad or Mad".

Thomas
 
Human progress, in Response (Conscious, Cooperatively Accepted rather than always Chosen) to Divine Ideals and Ideas ...

Most of us we use 5 dimensions of consciousness only in limited degree, maybe 4 with very little facility, and only 3 in true outward awareness ... yet emotional and mental beings are we!

There are dimensions of activity beyond the 5 which remain unknown or unexperienced to some, while other beings function therein with as much facility as we do in 3 (or fewer). These are not hypotheses; they are, simply for some, fact.

So it really does not matter whether we experience the 5, or the 4, or - visually, even the 3.

Even a blind man has the same heart as we do, mind as we do, and ~give or take~ brain as we do (which I think you were pointing out) to Know `G*d(s)'

Whether the Idea(l/s) we experience ring of Truth, Vision, Lasting Progress (steady movement toward a goal) or warm invitations to step closer to the Light ... all these remain largely our choice. And sometimes we cannot avoid certain consequences, or opportunities - regardless of how - or whether - we choose to respond. ;) :)

It's kind of like getting to that fork in the road, and even if it has four tongs, or pathways, or maybe as many as Seven (Ten?) ... it will always remain, fundamentally, a CHOICE - for us. While for others/Another, it is ever a matter of how to make the Seven/Four/2 blend and fuse, cooperate, come together ~as One. And perhaps yet additional factors are involved, some of whom/which we really cannot imagine yet.

Abstractions keep things where they need to be. I like the point you made about brains being designed ... the way they've been.
 
Most of us we use 5 dimensions of consciousness only in limited degree, maybe 4 with very little facility, and only 3 in true outward awareness ... yet emotional and mental beings are we!

There are dimensions of activity beyond the 5 which remain unknown or unexperienced to some, while other beings function therein with as much facility as we do in 3 (or fewer). These are not hypotheses; they are, simply for some, fact.
Luckily, the Christian Tradition, beinf metacosmic in its ontology, cuts right through all such divisions, limitations and fractal permutations of human consciousness ... it is the Sword of the Spirit that severs the Gordion Knot of man's inventiveness.

Phronema in the Greek means the 'mindset' in regard to man's disposition towards Revelation.

If the nous [the spiritual intellect, not to be confused with rational faculty of the mind] is darkened, then the whole mind is carnal. But if the nous is illuminated, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then the whole mind is a mind of spirit and, of course, is 'of one mind' with the whole Church.

Thus to speak of illumination, we mean that 'our' nous is the nous of Christ, as the Apostle Paul says, or at least that we accept the experience and testimony of the saints and have communion with them.

Thomas
 
Your comment was that NONE of what I said was in the ancient texts, a sweeping...(etc)

This is a contemptible excuse for deliberately misreading my post. Shame on you.

Interpreting "absence to evidence" as "evidence of absence" is not just sticking to the facts, either; in general, in ancient history we always have fewer solid facts than we would like. It is reasonable to fill in gaps by looking at analogous cases where we have more information.

I suggest you do not practise this on your tax return, however. This, again, is contemptible.

It is not reasonable to assume that Mithraism was invented in Rome just because that is where we get our first good observations.

Even less so to assume it was invented somewhere else, when the evidence is otherwise.

I first observed my friend's pickup truck in his garage... <snip BS>

How nice for you. Well into propellor-mode tactics now, I see.

The data is SILENT about the prior history of Mithraism; you do not have any source at all saying "Yes, we invented this cult here in Rome" so it is wrong to say that any data is "against" a prior history for it.

Little man, if you have data for a prior history of Mithras, produce it. If not, you are NOT entitled to assert that it had one.

I would go further than to say that Mithras "might" have come from elsewhere, and say that it should be the default assumption,

You're welcome to make assumptions, so long as you state that is what they are. But to state your assumptions as fact is normally called "dishonesty".

It is stating speculation as speculation. You are free to make your own assessments of whether Clauss or I have come up with a more probable back-story for Plutarch's misapprehension.

You mean, choose between one based on the sources, or one you made up? Yes, I think we can do that. You may not be able to, but most people can work that one out.

I entirely disagree. Speculating is what we need to do, if we are to get any real sense of what is going on from incomplete data;

Your belief that making up a story is acceptable is why you have made such a fool of yourself in this thread. Don't.

Roger Pearse
 
Let's be clear - we request civility only here - considering the diversity we get here, is an exceptionally limited demand.

So, Roger, please do remember this is a moderated forum and try and discuss posts, not posters. Tantrums, especially, are not welcome. :)

Back on topic - if you;ve ever read primary historical sources you'll see that much of what is called "accepted history" is actually conjecture. When we look at the Roman and Byzantine period, for example, trying to determine objective historical reality would be like trying to determine the history of the 20th century based on a Republican manifesto from the Reagan era, a French novel, and grocery lists from an Italian warehouse. Ancient history is - for the most part - conjecture based from biased narratives and mundane data.
 
This is a contemptible excuse for deliberately misreading my post. Shame on you.
I read your post to mean what it plainly said. The word "none" said that you were calling me a liar as to every single point. If you only meant to call me out on one particular point, then your failure to express your meaning properly was entirely your fault.
Even less so to assume it was invented somewhere else, when the evidence is otherwise.
There is zero evidence for this cult, or any other cult, being invented in Rome. There is plenty of evidence for cults arising somewhere else, and coming to prominence in Rome.
Little man, if you have data for a prior history of Mithras, produce it. If not, you are NOT entitled to assert that it had one.
Nasty man, if you have data for an invention of the Mithras cult within Rome, produce it. If not, I AM entitled (who the hell are you to tell me what I am "entitled" to?) to consider what the most probable explanations are.
You're welcome to make assumptions, so long as you state that is what they are. But to state your assumptions as fact is normally called "dishonesty".
I have never made any claims to know these things as "fact" but on the contrary have emphasized that a humble acknowledgement of uncertainty is wise. As Brian has explained to you, ancient history is a field in which filling in the gaps is a constant necessity. If you cannot deal with that, then stay out of this field.
You mean, choose between one based on the sources, or one you made up?
There is no source describing anyone, anytime confusing "Perseus" with "Mithras"; there are however sources for people who had been residing in Persia a long time being resettled in Cilicia. Both Clauss and I were engaged in attempting to fill in a gap, and I leave it to other observers to decide which of our attempts has more probability.
 
Nativeastral:
l was just looking at it from a wider dimension; as to why Jesus became so popular there...

Thomas:
Maybe because the doctrine was so much more appealing?

The success of Christianity might be a lot simpler than either 'linked mythology' or 'unique doctrine.'

It was 'free', compared to the mystery cults, which also did not allow admittance to 'blood guilt' [murderers].

The astrological and mystical symbols for a stage-by-stage process of spiritual growth, which Taijasi refers to, is a kind of high-brow Paganism (it seems to me) which would have had some appeal to any high-brow religious thinker of the early Christian era - of whatever religion, Christianity included. Some appeal (whether ultimately a compelling one or not).

Certainly one of the early apologists Justin the martyr called it the most 'reasonable' philosophy to appeal to the more intelligent; but I think the divinatory arts, particularly astrology, has been well played down, as it was extremely popular at this point in time and hundreds of years thereafter, until the enlightenment.

The self-transformative world of the individuating self, which Nativeastral refers to, has strong shadings of Joseph Campbell's The Masks of God and James Fraser's The Golden Bough. This attempts to place the origins of modern selfhood in the mutual Pagan/Christian context of the late-Roman world. Plus throw-in some modern gender-bending ... to include some very contemporary notions of identity-formation. And - while this is probably a modern back-projection upon the past - it is a very interesting idea (even should it have zero historical basis) because it links personal-identity to religious-strangeness as a rather earthy model (piety/devotion) for how we (today) can grow as an individual.
(A transformation physically felt, and certainly far less ethereal and intangible than the one offered by Taijasi.)

The uniqueness of Christianity, two millennia ago, (it seems to me) is that it did both. It provided high-brow answers for the mystical-minded, but its ritual practice was very physically satisfying in the earthy way which Nature-religions of the day were satisfying to their participants.

But (to my mind) Christianity provided something more than these (ethereal and earthy) rites which Pagan devotions provided to their own worshippers. And it was this 'something more' - and not syncretism - which reached beyond the mere 'appeal' (Christianity's ad-campaign), trumpeting a brave new religion. More, in at least two historically new ways:
1. A new style of (practical) religious organization.
2. How Monotheism (ultimately) changes a person's way of thinking and interacting with the world.


Look at any original stoic writing and humanism and [more importantly for both Mithraism and Christianity] brotherhood jumps right out at you. Coupled with the high degree of jurisprudence developed by the Romans and their highly organised corporations [which the church modelled itself on] as well as their attitude to slavery [which Rome itself was founded on], Pax Romana was the perfect place and time for a missionary religion based on peace. The roads and links were in place, and monotheism was 'in the air' via diasporic jews, god fearers and neoplatonists. It was a new millenium with all the attendent fears and concerns that brings.

Rodney Stark's sociological approach to early Christian history (The Rise of Christianity: How the Obscure, Marginal, Jesus Movement Became the Dominant Religious Force and Cities of God: The Real Story of How Christianity Became an Urban Movement and Conquered Rome) is very down-to-earth (despite all the statistics he utilizes). Very common-sense minded.

Sandra Collins (SLIS, Univ. of Pittsburgh):
Theories abound regarding the growth of Christianity in its first 500 years - that it succeeded most among the urban poor, that women may or may not have had a place, that it bred zealotry. Stark (sociology, Univ. of Washington) considers the theories of many of the classic Christian historians (Harnack, Meeks, and Wilckens, to name a few), subjecting their historical speculations to the rigors of social science as a means of ascertaining both their validity and their value. Through this method, Stark finds Christianity to be a "revitalization movement," a response to social crises. Those crises affected the wealthy as well as the poor, female as well as male, Greek as well as Jew. In Christianity, "doctrine took on actual flesh," and all seekers not only found a place but flourished in the culturally strange (for its time) dynamic of the nonethnic Christian community. Stark provides compelling reading, adding depth and coherence to the often nebulous hyperbole of historical hypotheses ...
(Library Journal review of Stark's Rise of Christianity.)

Book Summary (from my local Library System):
... Because it offered a new perspective on familiar concepts and was not linked to ethnicity, Christianity had a large following among persons seeking to assimilate into the dominant culture, mainly Hellenized Jews. The oversupply of women in Christian communities - due partly to the respect and protection they received - led to intermarriages with pagans, hence more conversions, and to a high fertility rate. Stark points out, too, the role played by selflessness and faith. Amidst the epidemics, fires, and other disasters that beleaguered Greco-Roman cities, Christian communities were a stronghold of mutual aid, which resulted in a survival rate far greater than that of the pagans ...

This provides just a few of the practical reasons, Stark gives, as to why Christianity prevailed as it did. However, regarding doctrine (whether inclusive or exclusive of Pagan tenets of faith) ...

Christian doctrine - according to Stark - had remarkably little to do with Christianity's (not so surprising) sociopolitical success.


Agreed, the fact that it had no exclusivity must have played a part and from what I have read yes women then [and now] were drawn to the figure of Jesus. Certainly among the richer classes the records show it was women who promulgated it to their [Roman] husbands.

Monotheism, by its nature, is severely contemptuous of all symbolic systems. Even those symbols used by the faithful to describe the One True God. Symbolic worlds are 'eternal' and 'cyclic.' If a person actually rejects that world-view, all they have left - by which to contextualize their beliefs - is the immediate concrete world and real human history. The day-to-day physical and interpersonal world. A world in which the values of science and ethics will eventually (and inevitably) prevail.

Staying with Rodney Stark (For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery) ...

Gail Hudson:
For the Glory of God challenges numerous assumptions about how religion affected the course of history. As a professor of Sociology and Comparative Religions at the University of Washington, Rodney Stark (The Rise of Christianity) has a unique ability to write like a chatty Social Scientist while delving into complicated theories on religion and history. Here he shows how beliefs in God - whether it was through the filter of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam - provoked and fueled human history. Of course many readers won’t dicker with his evidence that religious fervor influenced the witch hunts. But readers may be surprised by Stark’s assertion that the persecution of witches actually had more to do with the conflicts between the world’s major religions than the oppressive beliefs of fanatical clergy or sexist men. He also asserts that the same religious leaders who were the first to persecute witches were also the first to take a stand against slavery. And, contrary to many historical theories, Stark claims that religion may have been the driving force behind the emergence of modern science. Stark’s fascinating conclusions may rile conventional historians. Indeed, Stark was dismayed to discover how many historians "dismiss the role of religion in producing ‘good’ things such as the rise of science or the end of slavery, and the corresponding efforts to blame religion for practically everything ‘bad.’" ...
(Amazon.com Book Review.)

Any religion must be symbolic since empiricism or rationalism cannot be used in totally explaining the [mystery of the] divine or sublime. But yes the attempted synthesis of the particular and historical Judaism with the cyclic and eternal Greek model has caused contradictions in Christianity which many years of formulated theology has been busily ironing out. I think most historians etc do recognise that Christianity contributed greatly to scientific development since the harmony and order of the universe was seen as G#ds handiwork and thereby worthy of investigation and understanding; and not so ironically the rational zeal, natural theology and empiricism of the enlightenment has also contributed to the secularization and empty churches now witnessed here in the UK [more in the 'bible' christianity of the protestants].

Most of Christianity is symbolic nonsense (i.e. pagan, in origin).

It is that part of Christianity which is specifically non-symbolic ...
Which (in my view):
- Changed people's (received) reality.
- Changed people's (received) attitudes toward other human beings.
And which ...

- Utterly changed the world.


I personally do not think paganism is nonsense anymore than any other religion is but l suppose it depends on ones personality as it is merely a key to attune ones self to ones Self. Pragmatism is all very well, but pragmatism without pleasure is a dead letter in my book!

The rise in Christianity, which followed Judaism's male g#d model and therefore male priesthood, continued patriarchy well beyond its sell by date, the reverberations we are only just extricating ourselves from now.

[a rather nice article to slip in here! Astrology, Patriarchy and Postmodernism page 1]
 
Hi Bob X
There is zero evidence for this cult, or any other cult, being invented in Rome. There is plenty of evidence for cults arising somewhere else, and coming to prominence in Rome.

I know wikipedia is far from an infallible source, but it does list a number of scholars who argue that Mithraism is a Roman cult — Roger Beck, Reinhold Merkelbach, Manfred Clauss, Lewis Hopfe, David Ulansey, James Ware ...

On the origins of Mithraism:
"Beyond these three Mithraea [in Syria and Palestine], there are only a handful of objects from Syria that may be identified with Mithraism. Archaeological evidence of Mithraism in Syria is therefore in marked contrast to the abundance of Mithraea and materials that have been located in the rest of the Roman Empire. Both the frequency and the quality of Mithraic materials is greater in the rest of the empire. Even on the western frontier in Britain, archaeology has produced rich Mithraic materials, such as those found at Walbrook. If one accepts Cumont's theory that Mithraism began in Iran, moved west through Babylon to Asia Minor, and then to Rome, one would expect that the religion left its traces in those locations. Instead, archaeology indicates that Roman Mithraism had its epicenter in Rome. Wherever its ultimate place of origin may have been, the fully developed religion known as Mithraism seems to have begun in Rome and been carried to Syria by soldiers and merchants. None of the Mithraic materials or temples in Roman Syria except the Commagene sculpture bears any date earlier than the late first or early second century. [30. Mithras, identified with a Phrygian cap and the nimbus about his head, is depicted in colossal statuary erected by King Antiochus I of Commagene, 69-34 B.C.. (see Vermaseren, CIMRM 1.53-56). However, there are no other literary or archaeological evidences to indicate that the cult of Mithras as it was known among the Romans in the second to fourth centuries A.D. was practiced in Commagene]. While little can be proved from silence, it seems that the relative lack of archaeological evidence from Roman Syria would argue against the traditional theories for the origins of Mithraism."
wikipedia

It seems to me we know very little of the cult in Rome, and even less of the cult as it might have been before its Roman version?

If Mithraism existed prior to its Roman cult, do we know anything about its doctrine?

The argument that Mithraism influenced Christianity still seems to me just another attempt to undermine Christianity, which is supposed to have derived its doctrines from Mithraism, Egypt, India ... in fact anywhere, other than its own Hebrew foundations ...

It's the very fact that there are so many opinions that mitigates against any one of them ... for the Christian they all become just a background noise.

It seems to me the influence of Plato and/or Stoicism, the potential for the Hellenization of Hebraism, clearly evident in the Fathers, is a far stronger critique of the development of Christian doctrine, and one that continues within Christianity ... but seems to raise its head only in scholarly circles.

Like the author of the Gospel of John, everyone has an opinion, but line up all the contenders, and it's the tradition that emerges with the strongest argument?

Thomas
 
The argument that Mithraism influenced Christianity still seems to me just another attempt to undermine Christianity

I agree - I see a lot within early Christianity at last that looks like a rehashing of a number of existing Greek and Asian influences - but without knowing anything definite about Mithraism, it would be impossible to claim Mithraism as an influence.

However, what we do have with Christianity which I fail to find in any comparable system is what I can only describe as "spiritual communism" - ie, your class, gender, place of birth, looks, status, etc, have absolutely no bearing on your ability to sit as a chosen of god in a heavenly paradise.

If one accepts Cumont's theory that Mithraism began in Iran, moved west through Babylon to Asia Minor, and then to Rome, one would expect that the religion left its traces in those locations.

Only if we're looking for a Roman form of it - the fact that Mithras is plainly depicted wearing Asian dress and not Roman attire attests to the fact of it being an original import.

Regarding the origins of Mithraism - we also do have an incredibly cosmopolitan set of belief systems within Ancient Rome itself - not least because it was the centre of the imperial world that everything gravitated to (just as many different arts end up in London, does not infer they originated there).

And as Bob X says, we have clear accounts through the centuries from various Roman sources describing religious beliefs, cults, and personas being actively brought to Rome (early: Etruscan, Greek and Latin gods - later: Cybele, Isis, Elagabalus's rock, and the intriguing figure of Apollonius of Tyrana).

Heck, even with Christianity we have a distinctive identity developing in Rome that is significantly different to any region nearer Judea - not least the Coptics and Orthodox churches (yes, Thomas, I'm glossing other schisms and simplifying just to describe what we have now, to provide analogy for Mithraism originating in the Near East and then developing its own distinct Roman form - in Rome. :) )

In fact, only Romulus and Remus can be argued to be originally Roman, potentially from a tribal origin, with other religious figures imported and then reinvented in Roman form (as every school child knows the with analogous Roman forms of Greek gods).

The latter is a crucial point of note - the Romans are singularly famous for not inventing anything themselves*, but instead, taking other cultural learnings and shaping it into their own.

It would be historically spectacular and singularly unprecedented for a completely new religious system to develop within Imperial Rome that had no external origin.

* Except, perhaps, concrete. :)
 
Heck, even with Christianity we have a distinctive identity developing in Rome that is significantly different to any region nearer Judea ...
Hmm ... not really ... not for a couple of centuries ... but what we don't have is any evidence of the Christian identity being shaped by Mithraism, or any other 'Asian' influence.

Nor that Roman Mithraism bears any continuity with Asiatic Mithraism?

not least the Coptics and Orthodox churches (yes, Thomas, I'm glossing other schisms and simplifying just to describe what we have now, to provide analogy for Mithraism originating in the Near East and then developing its own distinct Roman form - in Rome. :) )
But that's often the problem ... generalisations that can be largely if not totally inaccurate.

It would be historically spectacular and singularly unprecedented for a completely new religious system to develop within Imperial Rome that had no external origin.
I agree ... but that's not the issue, the issue is what the influence is. at present, it's largely accepted as Hebrew theology and Greek philosophy ...

Thomas
 
Hmm ... not really ... not for a couple of centuries ...

That's only because it took a couple of centuries for Christianity to become codified. Until Nicea, we essentially had lots of very different groups calling themselves "Christians".

But that's often the problem ... generalisations that can be largely if not totally inaccurate.

I think that's the point of generalisations. :)


I agree ... but that's not the issue, the issue is what the influence is. at present, it's largely accepted as Hebrew theology and Greek philosophy ...

Are we talking about Mithraism or Christianity? If Christianity, don't you mean Greek theology with Hebrew philosophy? :)
 
Hi Brian —
That's only because it took a couple of centuries for Christianity to become codified. Until Nicea, we essentially had lots of very different groups calling themselves "Christians".
I do think however, that the idea that Christianity was a disparate collection of varying beliefs without a centre or core until Nicea is, again, another generalisation that does not really reflect the actuality.

It was because of the Emperor Constantine's support of the Church that allowed free and open debate, until then the various centres were subject to imperial censure and sometimes persecution that the Church had to remain largely 'underground'.

There is a significant body of evidence to support the thesis that there was such a core, and a core set of doctrines, evident in the Pauline preaching for example, that indicates a common belief across the empire as it was then known.

The codification of Nicea — the Creed — was itself formulated from catechetical teachings drawn from a number of sources, or centres, of Christian praxis; Jerusalem, Alexandria and Antioch primarily.

The Arian Dispute, for example, began as an authentic pastoral issue, and theological question, but very quickly the theological dimension was sidelined as the main players sought political ascendancy — Arius himself laments this turn of events.

I think that's the point of generalisations. :)
But they're neither useful nor helpful when not grounded in evidential argument, but rather serve polemical or even prejudicial viewpoints.

The initial premise of this discussion, that 'Ebionite/Nazarene' best characterises the Early Church is a gross generalisation on two points. The first is that it does not allow for the change in character of the groups themselves over time. In Acts Luke refers to 'the Way', but to then assume that this specific 'way' was synonymous with any other 'way', simply by virtue of the designation, is palpably inaccurate.

Likewise the designation of the belief systems of the Ebionites and Nazarenes of the 2nd/3rd century as determining the meaning of the term in the 1st century is also inaccurate. What is evident is that these names came to designate a body of belief that accepted, or did not accept, that body of doctrine designated 'Catholic' (by Ignatius of Antioch in the 1st century) which itself clearly indicates an 'orthodox' doctrine, that was empire-wide, as opposed to those heterodox doctrines which should be examined on their own account.

That the Nazarenes accepted the Virgin Birth for example, whilst the Ebionites didn't, indicates that the Virgin Birth was indeed a doctrine from the earliest times, and furthermore that such groups sought to distance themselves to a greater or lesser degree from what they saw as a central but erroneous teaching.

Rather than just declare such groups orthodox, therefore, let alone principle Christian designations, one needs to examine their doctrines against Liturgical practice and Scriptural teaching.

Are we talking about Mithraism or Christianity? If Christianity, don't you mean Greek theology with Hebrew philosophy? :)
Well that is a recurring issue, but fundamentally Christianity was a Hebrew monotheism which sought to reason its doctrine by Greek philosophy — but the point remains that the question of the Hellenisation of a Hebrew doctrine. Neither the two principles axes of debate — Christology and the Trinity — would not have emerged as they did from a Hellenic and fundamentally dualist theology. Nor would the Christian idea of the person.

All three ideas, as doctrine: The Triune Godhead, the Incarnation and the sanctification/divinisation of man, were well in place before Nicea, as evidenced by the fact that the dispute was triggered by the lay community in Alexandria, not by theologians, but rather by their rejection of Arius' overtly Platonic interpretation of theology which, in defence of an absolute monotheism, sought to define God as utterly Transcendent at the cost of any possibility of Divine Immanence.

What is most striking to me is that those who most vociferously defend the modern idea of the autonomous (and anti-corporate) spirituality (in all its senses) of the person, champion those movements — Ebionite, Nazarene, Cerinthian, Essene, Gnostic, (in the sense of the 2nd century doctrines), Montanist and later Cathar, etc. — which invariably absolutely refute any idea of a holistic and inhering spirituality whatsoever, let alone the idea of autonomy ...

What continually draws me to Catholicism is a doctrine which is the most optimistic and which opens up the possibility of what an authentic human being can be.

Thomas
 
There is a world of difference between syncretism and synthesis. Christianity is the synthesis of the Hebrew Revelation and Hellenic Philosophy.

Christianity is the syncretism of several religions into one. It started out as a Sect of Jewish followers of the Prophet Jesus of Nazareth. However, it was in an Empire where all religions were tolerated. Some Jews raised in Hellenic culture began to deviate in their beliefs but still held on to the teachings of the real Jesus.

As Roman Paganisms such as Sol Invictus, Mithraism Celtic religion, Greek Religion and North African religions began to take notice. they liked the morality and justice of Jesus. However, the Pagans were used to many gods. They also believed in creating new gods. This often involved apotheosis (deification of a historical human hero.)

These Romans of Pagan culture transferred elements of Celtic, Roman, Egyptian, and Greek into the dozens of Jesus Cults in the first two centuries. They at first accepted the teachings of Jesus, and helped the poor, reformed the twisted morality in the Empire, but soon they began to make bold changes in the real Human Jesus of Nazareth. The process was to make him into a new God, or a version of the Old God with a new name.

Paul and Arius taught a version of Christianity in which the Christ was a created God by JHWH, not equal to God but divine. Arianism almost became the dominant Christianity. Other pagans were more "pagan". They wanted Jesus to become the Christ God but a full-uncreated god. How to reconcile two high gods proved difficult.

European Pagans generally had many gods, but often a high Trinity. Mithraists had Ahura Mazda (Father), Mithra (Son), and Spenta Maingu (Holy Spirit). This was full incorporated into Christianity past the breaking point with Judaism. Celts had Dagda, Lugh, and Brigit. Germans had Odin (father), Baldur (son), and Ôstarâ (white dove spirit).

Christianity became not a Semitic Religion but an Indo-European Religion largely indistinguishable from Teutonic, Gaelic, Gaulish, Roman, Greek, Illyrian, and Iranian.

The down side was that Christians paid less attention to the teachings of the historical Jesus and more attention on the worship of the Mythical Christ. The similarity of Christianity to the other European Pagan religions made conversions easily. There is a story that St. Patrick converted a large group of Druids to Christianity making not change in their beliefs, and ordaining them as Catholic priests the same day.

The Christian (Protestant and Catholic) emphasis on worship, and faith and not on carrying out the wishes of Jesus betrayed Jesus. This ignoring of the preaching of Jesus is one cause of the evils produced within Dogmatic and Bible believing Churches. The Bible is just a book, an anthology, about Jewish and Judeo-Christian themes. Worshipping the Bible and a mythical Jesus led to total ignoring of the Sermon on the Mount.

Venerate the teaching of this great man, Jesus of Nazareth. Do not betray him by the blasphemous apotheosis of his memory into a new idol named Christ.


Yes indeed ... The Liturgy of the Gift ...

Thomas
Or is Liturgy the Curse?

Amergin
 
That the Nazarenes accepted the Virgin Birth for example, whilst the Ebionites didn't, indicates that the Virgin Birth was indeed a doctrine from the earliest times
Quite the contrary, it indicates that the Virgin Birth was a late addition, after the split between Jewish and Gentile branches of the Christian movement, which the Jewish Christians had a great deal of difficulty swallowing.
 
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