Principia Mathematica

Snoopy said:
Please no, anything but the cave again. :eek:

s.
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Dunno. I find Lascaux, Cosquer and Fumane, among others, quite comforting and familiar...like a long lost genetic memory.

I guess it just depends which cave we're talking about... ;)
 
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Greetings, and welcome.

Bertrand_Russell said:
“This leads to the famous simile of the cave or den, according to which those who are destitute of philosophy may be compared to prisoners in a cave, who are only able to look in one direction because they are bound, and who have a fire behind them and a wall in front. Between them and the wall there is nothing; all that they see are shadows of themselves, and of objects behind them, cast on the wall by the light of the fire. Inevitably they regard these shadows as real, and have no notion of the objects to which they are due. At last some man succeeds in escaping from the cave to the light of the sun; for the first time he sees real things, and becomes aware that he had hitherto been deceived by shadows. If he is the sort of philosopher who is fit to become a guardian, he will feel it is his duty to those who were formerly his fellow-prisoners to go down again into the cave, instruct them as to the truth, and show them the way up. But he will have difficulty in persuading them, because coming out of the sunlight, he will see shadows less clearly than they do, and will seem to them stupider than before his escape”.

Reference – A History of Western Philosophy, p. 125.
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I find this passage quite powerful. It is not easily understood. What does Plato mean by “guardians’ , this is an important notion. Why would guardians have the motivation to return to the cave ? Why would the people feel that the guardian is “stupid” ? How can society recognize their guardians ?
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I've not been able to comprehend Plato, although from the little I've been exposed to I enjoy Stoicism, but finding someone versed enough to convey the concepts to the laity such as myself is a difficult task.

Coming a bit more from the likes of pragmatism, Kant, James, Mills and Rand (and a flirtation with Jung), my head first bumps on the word "simile." As we should know, hyperboles and parables often break down if carried to extreme, so only serve in the simplest sense as examples. In the case of using an imaginary example such as this cave that no one with one exception seems able or willing to leave, actually illustrates my point. I don't trust the example to fully convey the essence of the puzzle.

However, if I were to play the game as laid out, then I would have to ask what it is that is so special about this one remarkable person? Is it a genetic thing? Is it a learned thing? Is it accidental or intensional? Is it temporary or permanent? Is it induced or hard-wired? Is it live or memorex?

In other words...can anybody be "taught" to be a messiah, or does it require a specially providential touch?

As for people believing one who doesn't view the world as they do as being "stupid," I believe that is a function of in-groups and out-groups along with all of the latent covert prejudice that naturally results from such exclusionary thinking. All people, even the so-called "open-minded" ones, are resistant to change...especially of ideas and worldviews, particularly those views that challenge cherished opinions.

I think there is yet another underlying presumption in this example that needs to be challenged, and that is the notion that different is automatically better, that the person that somehow managed to escape the cave is by inference superior. Could that person not just as rightly be insane? Which then opens the question to defining sanity and how to differentiate sane from insane...

Historically, that is a hazard of following messiahs...how to discern if they are legitimate...or deluded.

Really, what is it that distinguishes a so-called "superman?" The ancients celebrated beauty and strength. Today we celebrate intellect. Wisdom was once a notable trait. Every one of these attributes has come up short as salvation for humanity...while at the same time distinguishing and elevating humanity from the other animals. Each of these attributes is a double edged sword that causes suffering as well as enlightenment.

Nice talking with you. :)
 
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Snoopy said:
Please no, anything but the cave again. :eek:

s.
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As the very experienced philosopher which you are, Snoopy, the cave obviously seems very simplistic to you.

However, I encourage you to view philosophy as a study built on first principles. In this sense, we must re-establish these principles before we begin our journey.

Think of it as re-booting your computer. When you do this, you erase all RAM and must begin with the basic computer commands.

It is only in this sense that we visit Plato's cave. Do not worry, we will soon be visiting the European Enlightenment philosophers that you so value. So what do you think of Anaxagoras ?
 
Snoopy said:
Please no, anything but the cave again. :eek:

s.
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This, I think is in reference to a previous poster who had a particular fixation on that idea. That sort of discussion none really wants to revisit.
But the cave analogy is a good one for seeing an aspect of the human condition.
There are many opinions about it though.
 
Bertrand_Russell said:
Good points, Dream. To answer these questions, and the others, we need to begin with a review of the cave.


I find this passage quite powerful. It is not easily understood. What does Plato mean by “guardians’ , this is an important notion. Why would guardians have the motivation to return to the cave ? Why would the people feel that the guardian is “stupid” ? How can society recognize their guardians ?
Click to expand...
I may be jumping to conclusions here, but it appears that Plato and Jesus were both on the same page. Guardians are those who by what ever reason, understand the truth of things, and out of good conscience and compassion, care enough for their fellow man, to try to bring him/her out of the ignorant condition the Guardian was once in (or may have been in).

The cave dwellers on the other hand, know no other way than what is in front of them, and as most humans go, are resistant to change, because change causes uncertainty, and insecurity.

Ergo, if one is miserable, yet comfortable in that misery, it is far more appealing to remain so rather than taking a chance to face the unknown and grow because of it.

I am struck by the fact that a man who only understands one language, yet placed in a land where another language is spoken has one of two choices...the first:

Learn the new language in order to understand those around him/her.

or:

Withdrawl from the society he/she is placed in and draw conclusions (and misery of being alone), about the "strangers" that surround him. Usually those conclusions are negative, and the lone man considers himself/herself to be superior, when in reality he/she is the uneducated/ignorant one.

I opine that the same could be said of the majority who regard the lone stranger as odd, or ignorant because they can't understand him, and they have no desire to try to understand him.

On the other hand, let one or a couple of cave dwellers become curious or have trust enough in the one that left the cave and came back, and after time, all will "learn" there is more than a dark cave of shadows...

My thoughts

Grey's Q
 
Thanks for the snippet about the cave, BR.

BR said:
Look at how these ideas transcend time and thought. From Plato to the Christian era. The story of the cave. The guardian. Can man move from ignorance to knowledge and then return to illuminate the other men ?
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BR said:
I find this passage quite powerful. It is not easily understood. What does Plato mean by “guardians’ , this is an important notion. Why would guardians have the motivation to return to the cave ? Why would the people feel that the guardian is “stupid” ? How can society recognize their guardians ?
Click to expand...
I agree with Greymare about why they return to the cave.

After reading what you put up...its a little frustrating, the cave & the fire. I want to extend the analogy, but I'm not sure if I can. The people are frustrated with the guardian, because he/she is the first real thing that they see. Perhaps the guardian steps past them towards the wall and turns around, so they see their guardians face. It is both colorful and painful compared to cold shadows. Also they can no longer see the shadows for the brightness, so for a moment its as if their wealth and other important activities disappear. They're aren't really gone, but the shadows of them disappear. Its like when someone says something that completely blows you away and makes you feel small and insignificant, and the next day you forget what it was they said exactly. If they try to explain it to you again, you brush them off. So you go on carrying out your day to day by the shadow puppets on the wall. Its perhaps like having wealth but not enjoying it.
 
Dharmaatmaa said:
Why would guardians have the motivation to return to the cave ?
'Cause they want to help people and protect them from their stupidity, not to let 'em hurt one another. And one would ask, who ordered the guardians to guard the people in cave? People themselves. Their prison is only a shadow, but they don't know that.
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The people ordered the guardians to protect the people in the cave ? Or did the guardians have the innate nature to return to the cave to help the people ?

What is the Eastern European view of this ? Do Russians have both eastern and western views of philosophy ? What about the schism ?
 
juantoo3 said:
I've not been able to comprehend Plato,
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That is probably because you have not read my works, please start with "History of Western Philosophy". {: - 0 )


although from the little I've been exposed to I enjoy Stoicism, but finding someone versed enough to convey the concepts to the laity such as myself is a difficult task.
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I am fond of Zeno.


Coming a bit more from the likes of pragmatism, Kant, James, Mills and Rand (and a flirtation with Jung), my head first bumps on the word "simile." As we should know, hyperboles and parables often break down if carried to extreme, so only serve in the simplest sense as examples. In the case of using an imaginary example such as this cave that no one with one exception seems able or willing to leave, actually illustrates my point. I don't trust the example to fully convey the essence of the puzzle.
Click to expand...
The use of "imaginary examples" is reminiscent of "thought experiments" much later in time. We will get to European philosophers later.


However, if I were to play the game as laid out, then I would have to ask what it is that is so special about this one remarkable person? Is it a genetic thing? Is it a learned thing? Is it accidental or intensional? Is it temporary or permanent? Is it induced or hard-wired? Is it live or memorex?
Click to expand...
This is a very critical point, indeed. Guardians are paradigm changers. We all know the names of the guardians. They have special gifts that make them remarkable.

In other words...can anybody be "taught" to be a messiah, or does it require a specially providential touch?
Click to expand...
I doubt that any guardians have not been exposed to great teachers. I also believe these guardians sought their teachers.


As for people believing one who doesn't view the world as they do as being "stupid," I believe that is a function of in-groups and out-groups along with all of the latent covert prejudice that naturally results from such exclusionary thinking. All people, even the so-called "open-minded" ones, are resistant to change...especially of ideas and worldviews, particularly those views that challenge cherished opinions.
Click to expand...

Describing these guardians as "stupid" seems strange to me. I think what is meant here is that people often do not understand their guardians.


I think there is yet another underlying presumption in this example that needs to be challenged, and that is the notion that different is automatically better, that the person that somehow managed to escape the cave is by inference superior. Could that person not just as rightly be insane? Which then opens the question to defining sanity and how to differentiate sane from insane...
Click to expand...
Another side of the same coin is that guardians embody good, but what if they are evil ? Have we not seen examples of this in history ?

Really, what is it that distinguishes a so-called "superman?" The ancients celebrated beauty and strength. Today we celebrate intellect.
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We don't celebrate beauty and strength today ? lol.

Nice talking with you. :)
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You are a clearly a philosopher.
 
greymare said:
I may be jumping to conclusions here, but it appears that Plato and Jesus were both on the same page.
Click to expand...
Socrates was brought to trial because of his radical ideas a put to death.

Guardians are those who by what ever reason, understand the truth of things, and out of good conscience and compassion, care enough for their fellow man, to try to bring him/her out of the ignorant condition the Guardian was once in (or may have been in).
Click to expand...
A rare combination of qualities, indeed.

The cave dwellers on the other hand, know no other way than what is in front of them, and as most humans go, are resistant to change, because change causes uncertainty, and insecurity.
Click to expand...
Haven't we all acted this way at one time or another ?

Ergo, if one is miserable, yet comfortable in that misery, it is far more appealing to remain so rather than taking a chance to face the unknown and grow because of it.
Click to expand...
Likewise, people may be resistant change if they are happy.


I am struck by the fact that a man who only understands one language, yet placed in a land where another language is spoken has one of two choices...the first:

Learn the new language in order to understand those around him/her.

or:

Withdrawl from the society he/she is placed in and draw conclusions (and misery of being alone), about the "strangers" that surround him. Usually those conclusions are negative, and the lone man considers himself/herself to be superior, when in reality he/she is the uneducated/ignorant one.
Click to expand...

Good motivation to study many languages { : - 0 ).


I opine that the same could be said of the majority who regard the lone stranger as odd, or ignorant because they can't understand him, and they have no desire to try to understand him.
Click to expand...
Wonderful point.


On the other hand, let one or a couple of cave dwellers become curious or have trust enough in the one that left the cave and came back, and after time, all will "learn" there is more than a dark cave of shadows...
Click to expand...

Very inspirational.
 
Socrates response to Meno and his sophistic paradox is to develop his theory of anamnesis.
He suggests that the soul is immortal, and repeatedly incarnated; knowledge is actually in the soul from eternity, but each time the soul is incarnated its knowledge is forgotten in the shock of birth.
What one perceives to be learning, then, is actually the recovery of what one has forgotten.
(Once it has been brought back it is true belief, to be turned into genuine knowledge by understanding.)
And thus Socrates (and Plato) sees himself, not as a teacher, but as a midwife, aiding with the birth of knowledge that was already there in the student.

So the cave dweller who leaves and returns after to the cave is then in the role of midwife to assist others in the process of anamnesis.

From amnesia (darkness) through anamnesis (remembering) to the light (remembrance/knowing/gnosis).
 
Bertrand_Russell said:
The people ordered the guardians to protect the people in the cave ? Or did the guardians have the innate nature to return to the cave to help the people ?

What is the Eastern European view of this ? Do Russians have both eastern and western views of philosophy ? What about the schism ?
Click to expand...

Never mind--that's what I get for posting without having yet eaten.
 
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