Belgium has become the first European country to approve a ban on the burka

[The Undecided]

Belgium has become the first European country to approve a ban on the burka
Under the new legislation, any women caught wearing the full Islam face veil could be fined up to 25 euros or sentenced to jail for up to seven days.
The ban has been passed through Belgium’s lower house of parliament, and now needs to be approved by the Senate.
Thursday vote for the ban was almost unanimous, with 134 MPs supporting the law, and two abstentions.
Only around 30 women in Belgium wear the full face veil, out of a Muslim population of approximately half a million.
Denis Ducarme, Belgian MP, said his country is the first in Europe to “break through the chain that has kept countless women enslaved.”
However, Amnesty International said the ban sets a “dangerous precedent”.
The human rights group said Belgium’s new laws “violate the rights to freedom of expression and religion of those women who wear the burqa or niqab as an expression of their identity and beliefs”.

This is a joke. It amazes me that people can be so prejudice when they obviously have little understanding of why woman wear the burqa and that it is worn as a free expression of faith.

“break through the chain that has kept countless women enslaved.”

Has this person actually asked any of these enslaved women's opinion on the matter? Wearing the burqa is a religious choice and to take this away does definitely

“violate the rights to freedom of expression and religion of those women who wear the burqa or niqab as an expression of their identity and beliefs”.

This irritates me, as is probably evident.

TU

 

[shawn]

It is not religious choice if one looks at the roots of the origins of it.
Look into Stockholm syndrome.
Time to end medieval customs.

 

[Amergin]

Belgium is tampering with a dangerous idea. Do they not have parents who remember when under Nazi rule, Jews had to wear a yellow star or triangle. Atheists had to wear a black triangle, Gays had to wear a pink patch, and other patches demarked ethnic and belief groups.

The Burqa is in many ways similar to what Christian women wore in the Dark Ages and in Puritan New England. I think it is stupid but I think it is plain wrong to legislate against clothing because it is desired by religious groups. Are they going to ban the jihab, turban, fez? And if they ban the turban will it equally apply to Sikhs, and Hindu's?

Do they think this will win over the hearts and minds of Belgian Muslims? Haa!

Amergin

 

[Amergin]

Designated enemies of the Nazi Christian 3rd Reich wore coloured patches on their shirts or coloured badges. We are all familiar with the yellow star of David required on Jews. Here are some less known ones.

• Brown -----Gypsy
  Violet ------Jehovah's Witness
  Pink --------Homosexual
  Green ------ Habitual criminal
  Red -------- Political prisoner (socialist-Communist)
  Black -------Atheist
  Blue --------Emigrant

Amergin

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

This worries me too. I am reliably informed the Quran does not mandate full face cover, but if there are some women, even if there are only 30, who feel that showing their face would offend their sense of modesty, then it would be wrong to make them do so.

We wouldn't like it if all men were forced to wear shorts!

 

[Amergin]

The Quran is as bad as the Bloody Bible. Pick some verses that glorify killing enemies then there are other verses that say to not kill non-combattants. Some verses allow them to degrade non-Muslims to near slave status (some to actual slave status.) They conquer Christian and Zoroastrian countries and tax non-Muslims while not taxing muslims.

I am not sure if it is the Quran or the other book Hasida?? These glorify beating women, allowing them no authority, punishing women far worse than men who commit adultery. They sell daughters into slavery. They wire children and mentally ill people, with bombs. Many of those are sent into civilian areas with innocent women and children, and babies. 9-11 was a mass murder. The killers were not martyrs. They were simply blood thirsty killers with paranoid psychosis used by the cowardly leaders like Bin Ladin who take no risks themselves.

That is why I like sending drone bombs as accurately as possible if they can be sure the Demon Bin Ladin is exterminated. Unfortunately others will be killed (collateral damage) but I suspect those around Bin Ladin are as evil and mentally deranged are far from innocent.

The clothing issue is trival. I see nothing wrong with people wearing Christian women's attire that is not very different from modern muslim women. Then it should be Ok for Celts to wear hooded green robes and celebrate the astronomical festivals of my ancestral Pagans. I don't have to believe the dogma but green robed and hooded druits connecting us back with nature that has been lost by the hateful anti-nature Abrahamic Demon Gods.

Amergin

 

[Amergin]

Modern Neo-Pagans, Celtic Neo-Druits, Wicca, Buddhism, Unitarian-Universalism, Revived English Paganism (along the River Mersey) are nature respecting, altruistic, and beautiful faith. I admire them as I despise Christianity-Islam. I don't believe in their gods but that doesn't tarnish the Pagan Natural Religions.

Amergin

 

[riamoh]

It is not religious choice if one looks at the roots of the origins of it.
Look into Stockholm syndrome.
Time to end medieval customs.

The 'Hijab' is mandated in the Quran but the face veil is not. Most Muslims agree on the following when it comes to dress codes:

1. Loose clothing for both men and women.
2. Covering of what is called the 'satar'. For men it is to be covered from the waist down and below the knee and for women the 'satar' is to be covered from the neck down to the ankles.
3. Women have to additionally cover their heads.

What is up for debate is the face veil - a concept that many mainstream Muslims disagree upon while many hardliners accept as the proper interpretation of the 'Hijab'. A minority of moderate Muslims feel that the proper interpretation of the 'Hijab' is to dress modestly. Consequently many feel that since, for example, in many European and Western cultures, a pair of jeans and a t shirt is perfectly modest, thus it is acceptable.

In short, what most Muslims generally agree upon is that the Quran advocates dress codes for both men and women that are quite similar to what catholic nuns and priests choose to wear.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Modern Neo-Pagans, Celtic Neo-Druits, Wicca, Buddhism, Unitarian-Universalism, Revived English Paganism (along the River Mersey) are nature respecting, altruistic, and beautiful faith. I admire them as I despise Christianity-Islam. I don't believe in their gods but that doesn't tarnish the Pagan Natural Religions.

Amergin

what is it you despise about Islam and Christianity ?

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

well... as the article stipulates it still has to pass through their senate, so it's a bit misleading to suggest that it has already become law.

that said, is there any update on this? did it pass or fail the senate vote?

metta,

~v

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi everybody!

There is another issue that has not been mentioned. I think that, when a woman feels a need to cover her face when she goes out into society, I think it gives her a negative self-image. I see any compulsiveness at wearing a veil as being psychologically unhealthy.

 

[OAT]

If the veiling of a woman's face is to prevent men from being tempted by a beautiful face, why were beautiful women created in the first place? Alternatively, why were men created to find beautiful women tempting?

If the purpose of creating of beautiful women is to test men's ability to resist temptation, then why veil the face, since that would make the test less exacting and ultimately less valid?

 

[Muslimwoman]

It is not religious choice if one looks at the roots of the origins of it.
Look into Stockholm syndrome.
Time to end medieval customs.

I wear niqab, I do not have Stockholm Syndrome and I am not a medieval revivalist.

1. Loose clothing for both men and women.

Consequently many feel that since, for example, in many European and Western cultures, a pair of jeans and a t shirt is perfectly modest, thus it is acceptable.

I don't care how Muslims choose to wear, I made my choice and am happy to leave others to their choices but can jeans and t shirt be considered loose clothing?

What is up for debate is the face veil - a concept that many mainstream Muslims disagree upon while many hardliners accept as the proper interpretation of the 'Hijab'.

I consider myself many things in this life but a hardliner I am not. Of course some hardliners wear niqab but to simply associate it with hardliners is incorrect and reinforcing negative stereotypes.

that said, is there any update on this? did it pass or fail the senate vote?

Not yet

There is another issue that has not been mentioned. I think that, when a woman feels a need to cover her face when she goes out into society, I think it gives her a negative self-image. I see any compulsiveness at wearing a veil as being psychologically unhealthy.

Hi Nick, I'm afraid I can't agree ... although 5 years ago I would have agreed with you as I sat in restaurants watching women in niqab eating and asking "why do they do that, it's nuts".

Then I started to wear niqab and now I feel my self image is greatly improved, I no longer feel judged by my looks and I have a greater sense of empowerment (sounds like an oxymoron I know but until you try it it's very difficult to understand).

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW,

I appreciate your side of the debate, and I can see how you feel that way. But I just do not think that 'throwing a blanket over my head' is going to improve my self-image and self-confidence -- unless I already think I look ugly (in a society which values my looks way too highly). If so, I would take an entirely different way of improving my self-image and increasing my self-confidence. Sorry, 'throwing a blanket over my head' to improve my self-identity and increase my self-confidence just does not work for me.

But I will continue to consider your side of the debate, and see if it grows on me.

 

[Muslimwoman]

but as so often happens in this debate it always appears to come down to looks, with everyone talking of "hiding beauty" or "self image". The wearing of niqab would very rarely be to do with beauty or self image, it is generally as an article of faith, it is between you and Allah (swt) ... where the woman has the choice to wear it of course.

my experiences regarding self image are due to donning niqab in my 40's, which is of course not something usually done.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW,

If the niqab is mainly an article of faith between oneself and Allah that has nothing to do with looks, then why do men not wear them?

 

[Muslimwoman]

MW,

If the niqab is mainly an article of faith between oneself and Allah that has nothing to do with looks, then why do men not wear them?

Hi Nick

Sorry my last post was dreadful, I was trying to give a short answer and did a very bad job.

Of course I was wrong to say it has nothing to do with looks or beauty, as I began wearing niqab simply because my Western looks got so much attention in a rural Egyptian town but I was trying to take the conversation beyond the mere looks conversation.

What I was trying to express is that you can't just say it's about looks or about any one thing, it's about an entire way of life, a principle that dictates everything you do.

In Islamic society there is a gulf placed between private and public life and we are required to draw a veil between the two .. the arabic word is haya (to keep private what is private). The hijab is a form haya, it draws a veil between you and the outside world. The niqab is an extention of this principle.

In Muslim life men go out to work, they go to mosque 5 times a day and their life is lived pretty much publicly. Muslim women traditionally stay at home and care for the family, praying at home and going out only when necessary. This means that women get more attention when they are out and about and let's be honest men tend to look at women in a certain way much more often than women look at men in the same way.

So for me my looks and my figure are a private matter and must be kept private. My niqab stops lustful looks and jealousy BUT that doesn't mean I wear it because I think I am beautiful or because I think men can't control themselves, I wear it to please Allah (swt), to keep myslef private and stop fitna.

An important word here is fitna (meaning any islamicly-incorrect thought which is communicated to others) and it is every Muslims responsibility to stop fitna in any way they can. So for the outside world I wear niqab to hide my looks and to stop fitna but for me I wear it to please Allah (swt) and to develop my spiritual side ... niqab is a difficult thing to wear and a constant reminder of religious duties and faith.

The issue of why men don't wear niqab goes back to the bit about men being out in society and women being at home. If women stay home and only go out when necessary who would men be drawing a veil between ... themselves?

Men also have some strict rules about how to dress and behave publicly but that's a whole different story.

 

[bananabrain]

An important word here is fitna (meaning any islamicly-incorrect thought which is communicated to others) and it is every Muslims responsibility to stop fitna in any way they can. So for the outside world I wear niqab to hide my looks and to stop fitna but for me I wear it to please Allah (swt) and to develop my spiritual side ... niqab is a difficult thing to wear and a constant reminder of religious duties and faith.

it seems to me that a strong argument could be made that the niqab actually *causes* fitna. oh, and don't football teams from islamic countries wear shorts? why does nobody ever make them wear baggies or leg coverings?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW,

We are considering two different sets of questions here. One question is what is actually happening in Muslim society, and what should be happening in Muslim society (essentially, what is right and wrong). I believe our discussion mainly concerns the second set of questions.

You said,

"The hijab is a form haya, it draws a veil between you and the outside world."

--> But it seems that there are women who work in the outside world, as well as ‘stay-home moms’. So, perhaps two sets of rules should be considered?

"…my Western looks got so much attention in a rural Egyptian town…"

--> I agree. But do you feel Martin Luther King was right or wrong in breaking society’s rules, and getting so much attention in doing so?

"…let's be honest men tend to look at women in a certain way much more often than women look at men in the same way."

--> True. The problem is mainly men chasing after women, not vice versa. But I think this is a case of what I call "20 mile-per-hour mentality." Thousands of people die in traffic accidents every year. We could pass a law limiting all vehicles to a speed of 20 miles per hour. That would save thousands of lives, wouldn’t it? Isn’t this the same logic as wearing a niqab?

"…I wear it to please Allah…"

--> Would you be willing to agree that some women do not wear a niqab in order to please Allah? Would you agree that they have every right to do and feel so?

"The issue of why men don't wear niqab goes back to the bit about men being out in society and women being at home."

--> And this issue is slowly disappearing as more women go out into society, as I discussed before.

~~~

I am sorry if I come across as being argumentative, I do not mean to be. But I get the feeling that some Muslims will only consider one side of the debate and absolutely refuse to consider the other side of the debate. It is essential that we keep both sides of the debate out in the open at all times. I refuse to accept the idea that the only answer to the problem is the niqab, and I get the feeling from some Muslims that the only answer they will consider is wearing a niqab.
　

 

[citizenzen]

But I get the feeling that some Muslims will only consider one side of the debate and absolutely refuse to consider the other side of the debate.

Funny... I get that same feeling from non-Muslims.