The Serpent in the Garden of Eden

[Gatekeeper]

My view is that the serpent represents our 'personal, self serving desires, or rather self will. When Eve was tempted, it is my view that she was simply tempted by her own selfishness, or rather the part existing in mankind that is self seeking.

Eve deceived herself into believing that she would become as God ... All wise/all knowing/all powerful, etc. The only evil that came as a result of her disobedience was the evil that each of us possess and allow to consume us daily (Self-ish will).

Our selfish nature is the root of all evil (Imo) and is in direct opposition to Gods will for us (Lust vs. Love). The flesh, which represents 'self will' (lust) is in opposition to the Spirit (Love) which represents 'Gods will'.

We are but dust and ashes, no? We were created from the dust of the earth according to scripture. The serpent was cursed to consume the dust of the earth for the rest of his days. Are we not consumed by our selfish desires daily? Are we (Who are made from the dust of the ground) not consumed by our personal, self serving desires?

The serpent is simply the part of our nature that is self serving. It is that part of us that is disobedient to Gods will. It is that part of us that is in opposition to God.

In the beginning God declared all things very good. Our free will to choose is not a bad thing, as I believe it was not only necessary that we disobey God, but also preordained. I believe this because our hardships ultimately lead us closer to God.

We learn from our past (If we are wise), whereby we soon choose what is right, and good, and pleasing to God (On our own vocation). Our entire lives are a struggle between our will (Lust) and Gods will (Love), which is why Christ said we must die to self (Lust), and be reborn of the Spirit (Love).

Another topic I'd love to discuss further,

GK

 

[shawn]

NAHASH (The word means "serpent" in Hebrew. The root nshs means "to find out" or "discover." It is not surprise, therefore, to see the medical corporations, technical and educational institutions, and government think tanks employing the symbol of the serpent on their emblems and logos.)

KOHEN (Officially this word denotes a descendant of Aaron and a Jewish priest. However, it too means "serpent priest.")

The figure of Eve is based upon much older mythology and may be traced back to the ancient Mother Goddess or World Mother and the serpent cults of the pre-Biblical period. Closer examination of the name ‘Eve’ revealed her serpent origins, for the Hebrew for Eve is havvah, meaning ‘mother of all things,’ but also ‘serpent.’ Likewise, the Arabic words for ‘snake,’ ‘life,’ and ‘teaching,’ are closely related to the word or name “Eve’ – Philip Gardiner and Gary Osborn (The Serpent Grail)

A drawing, brought by Colonel Coombs, from a sculptured column in a cave-temple in the South of India, represents the first pair at the foot of an ambrosial tree, and a serpent entwined among the heavily laden boughs, presenting to them some of the fruit from his mouth - John G. Jackson (Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth)

One striking and important specimen of early type in the British Museum collection has two figures sitting one on each side of a tree, holding out their hands to the fruit, while at the back one (the woman) is etched a serpent...thus it is evident that a form of the "Fall," similar to that in Genesis, was known in early times in Babylonia - John G. Jackson

As long as humanity kept records of its existence, serpents were used as emblems of the intelligence of God. In ancient times and as widespread and diverse as Australia, China, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Babylonia, Sumeria, Egypt, India, and Central America, serpents were feared and worshipped as gods for thousands of years...To this day, serpents or dragons signify divine heritage and royalty in many Asian countries, while in the West the serpent represents wisdom and knowledge…Among nearly all ancient peoples the serpent was accepted as the ultimate symbol of wisdom or salvation - Tony Bushby (Secret in the Bible)

…it was the Serpent of Wisdom that first offered the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge for the Enlightenment of Mankind; whether this be Egyptian, Akkadian, or Gnostic, it is the Good Serpent. And as Guardian of the Tree set in Heaven it was the Good Serpent, or intelligent Dragon, as keeper of the treasures of Astral knowledge. It was the later Theology, Persian and Hebrew, that gave the character of the Evil One to the Serpent of Wisdom, and perverted the original meaning, both of the temptation and the Tempter who protected the Tree; which has been supplemented by the theology of the Vitriol-throwers who have scarified and blasted the face of nature on earth, and defiled and degraded the starry Intelligencers in heaven – Gerald Massey (The Hebrew and Other Creations Fundamentally Explained)

 

[Gatekeeper]

NAHASH (The word means "serpent" in Hebrew. The root nshs means "to find out" or "discover." It is not surprise, therefore, to see the medical corporations, technical and educational institutions, and government think tanks employing the symbol of the serpent on their emblems and logos.)

KOHEN (Officially this word denotes a descendant of Aaron and a Jewish priest. However, it too means "serpent priest.")

The figure of Eve is based upon much older mythology and may be traced back to the ancient Mother Goddess or World Mother and the serpent cults of the pre-Biblical period. Closer examination of the name ‘Eve’ revealed her serpent origins, for the Hebrew for Eve is havvah, meaning ‘mother of all things,’ but also ‘serpent.’ Likewise, the Arabic words for ‘snake,’ ‘life,’ and ‘teaching,’ are closely related to the word or name “Eve’ – Philip Gardiner and Gary Osborn (The Serpent Grail)

A drawing, brought by Colonel Coombs, from a sculptured column in a cave-temple in the South of India, represents the first pair at the foot of an ambrosial tree, and a serpent entwined among the heavily laden boughs, presenting to them some of the fruit from his mouth - John G. Jackson (Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth)

One striking and important specimen of early type in the British Museum collection has two figures sitting one on each side of a tree, holding out their hands to the fruit, while at the back one (the woman) is etched a serpent...thus it is evident that a form of the "Fall," similar to that in Genesis, was known in early times in Babylonia - John G. Jackson

As long as humanity kept records of its existence, serpents were used as emblems of the intelligence of God. In ancient times and as widespread and diverse as Australia, China, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Babylonia, Sumeria, Egypt, India, and Central America, serpents were feared and worshipped as gods for thousands of years...To this day, serpents or dragons signify divine heritage and royalty in many Asian countries, while in the West the serpent represents wisdom and knowledge…Among nearly all ancient peoples the serpent was accepted as the ultimate symbol of wisdom or salvation - Tony Bushby (Secret in the Bible)

…it was the Serpent of Wisdom that first offered the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge for the Enlightenment of Mankind; whether this be Egyptian, Akkadian, or Gnostic, it is the Good Serpent. And as Guardian of the Tree set in Heaven it was the Good Serpent, or intelligent Dragon, as keeper of the treasures of Astral knowledge. It was the later Theology, Persian and Hebrew, that gave the character of the Evil One to the Serpent of Wisdom, and perverted the original meaning, both of the temptation and the Tempter who protected the Tree; which has been supplemented by the theology of the Vitriol-throwers who have scarified and blasted the face of nature on earth, and defiled and degraded the starry Intelligencers in heaven – Gerald Massey (The Hebrew and Other Creations Fundamentally Explained)

Interesting....

My view is that the serpent (Self will) was very good, but also the means by which evil was introduced on earth. Evil is a relative term, so perhaps it would be better phrased as unpleasantness?

The serpent is simply a metaphor for our curious, and self serving nature in the Genesis account of the fall of man. Not that it is evil in and of itself, quite the contrary actually. W/o this newly found knowledge of what happens when mankind attempts to take the reigns, we would never know pain, suffering (Evil/Unpleasantness), nor would we be able to choose God on our own vocation.

Disobedience was pre ordained, and very much needed (Imo). Had we never been able to choose self, we would never appreciate Gods perfect will for us.

Would you disagree that the serpent represents our self/ish will, shawn? Or, do you believe in the literal account? Or maybe you believe something else entirely? It's difficult to know what you actually believe when you copy and paste the thoughts of others alone.

To me it comes down to serving the earthy, carnal aspects of self, or the heavenly, spiritual things of God.

GK

 

[Nick the Pilot]

The serpent is a literal sexual reference. It is easy to see the sexual symbology of snakes chasing fruit.

 

[Gatekeeper]

The serpent is a literal sexual reference. It is easy to see the sexual symbology of snakes chasing fruit.

I've heard this before, but fail to see the symbolism (Even a little bit). Can you clarify for me?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Snake refers to a part of the male anatomy. Fruit refers to a part of the female anatomy.

 

[shawn]

It's difficult to know what you actually believe when you copy and paste the thoughts of others alone.

I rarely do that, but was pressed for time and so just dropped that chunk of data as is.
The "serpent" is a word that has lost much of its original meaning IMO.
It represents something these days which is far different than what it once was thought to be.

The root nshs means "to find out" or "discover."

So this could be the scientist faction of the ET's who bio-engineered people.
They created us with flaws and some wished to remedy that but "the lord god" didn't like that idea (cruel ******* that he/it is) and put a stop to the rebellion.
The "serpent" was giving aid, but was stopped before the aid could be delivered.
We still suffer for the lack of it.

My view is that the serpent (Self will) was very good, but also the means by which evil was introduced on earth. Evil is a relative term, so perhaps it would be better phrased as unpleasantness?

I think that evil was introduced long before that.
Maybe "darkness" is better as a term.
I think it is our self will that is the real opposition for the antagonists in this story. This self will is our redeeming quality as it enables us to remember.

To me it comes down to serving the earthy, carnal aspects of self, or the heavenly, spiritual things of God.

I think it is not so black and white as all that and that there are more elements to this story than you have mentioned.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Snake refers to a part of the male anatomy. Fruit refers to a part of the female anatomy.

It dawned on me a couple minutes after i made the post what you were referring to. I still fail to see how 'sex' is the means by which evil manifest on earth if the serpent is in fact the males genitalia.

 

[xcvbxcvb]

If you look at Orion in the right way...

It is, simply, the trunk of a big tree, all the stars its branches and fruits.


The Milky Way is a serpent.



In Scandinavian myth, the serpent sits at the roots...
and, perhaps, the ravens which did not return to Noah
went to Odin instead.

North is South on that map.

Buddha also sat under this tree.
It's the same tree, no matter what people tell you.

(Sort of like the way the various Egyptian deities also tend to resemble Orion.
It's a different train of thought.)


They tried to tell us that the original sin was sex.

But the Bible doesn't say anything like that and the only people really getting screwed are the ones being brainwashed by this ridiculous interpretation, century after century... and royally so.

We can make our own shapes from the dots.
It's not against the law...
or is it?

 

[Gatekeeper]

I rarely do that, but was pressed for time and so just dropped that chunk of data as is.

No worries .... You typically have very intersting thoughts, and are rarely without words to describe them.

The "serpent" is a word that has lost much of its original meaning IMO.
It represents something these days which is far different than what it once was thought to be.

I'll go with that ....

So this could be the scientist faction of the ET's who bio-engineered people.
They created us with flaws and some wished to remedy that but "the lord god" didn't like that idea (cruel ******* that he/it is) and put a stop to the rebellion.

So, the lord god wanted us to be
flawed? I disagree, my view is that God wanted us to be complete, and lacking nothing ..... having even the first hand knowledge (Experience) of darkness (Evil).

The "serpent" was giving aid, but was stopped before the aid could be delivered.

I don't know .... Certainly the serpent was/is needed, but I don't believe He was aiding our flaws. In my view the serpent exploited them (If that's the correct term).

We still suffer for the lack of it.

We suffer only because of the selfish, self serving, greedy, and power hungry ways of mankind (Imo).

I think that evil was introduced long before that.

Why so?

Maybe "darkness" is better as a term.

I'll go with that ....

I think it is our self will that is the real opposition for the antagonists in this story. This self will is our redeeming quality as it enables us to remember.

Again, I disagree. Our natural selves are self serving, greedy, power hungry, and lustful. All of which leads to destruction. Sin To me implies missing the mark, or rather serving self as opposed to God.

I think it is not so black and white as all that and that there are more elements to this story than you have mentioned.

Sure there are, I simplified for sake of space. We can certainly examine the rest of the story if you like.

James

 

[shawn]

You have, no doubt, heard the phrase:
"history is the propaganda of the victor"
So who was the victor, and who was the vanquished?
Really.
The serpent (faction) has been vilified and the target of a massive smear campaign and the majority of the people have actually believed it.
But,
We get biased info (misinformation) and have been working with that for millenia.
You can trust in it if you wish, as can anyone.
But only the truth will set you free.
and the truth is not biased..it just is.
According to the Sumerian texts it was the "serpent" faction which caused the ark to be built and tipped off "noah" so that he would be spared the genocide.
They exclude that from the condensed version of the bible we are familiar with.

Quote:
I think it is our self will that is the real opposition for the antagonists in this story. This self will is our redeeming quality as it enables us to remember.

Again, I disagree. Our natural selves are self serving, greedy, power hungry, and lustful. All of which leads to destruction. Sin To me implies missing the mark, or rather serving self as opposed to God.

Rather, it is the animal self that has those qualities.
The spiritual self, your true self, is not the animal which you walk around in and have been taught to identify with which goes by the name of James, which is not your true name, merely your trademarked persona which you were told was yours from young on.

So, the lord god wanted us to be
flawed? I disagree, my view is that God wanted us to be complete, and lacking nothing ..... having even the first hand knowledge (Experience) of darkness (Evil).

Depends on which "god" you are referring to.
There are (IMO) higher beings who really do want things to be put right for us, but "the lord god" is not in that number. That entity merely sees us as workers/slaves to be exploited and used for its own dark purposes.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Gatekeeper,

Allow me to give my interpretation of Genesis, according to my belief system. As soon as humanity became able to have sex, the whole lot of humanity descended into one huge orgy. Even debauchery with animals became common. The human race fell into deep debauchery, and put all of us behind schedule. We are still behind schedule as a result.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

More specifics. According to my belief system, monstrosities such as the minotaur (half-human, half-horse), satyr (half-human, half-goat), mermaid (hallf-human, half-fish), etc., really did happen, due to debauchery with animals.

The writers of Genesis chose not to use sexually graphic language. They chose to use snake/fruit symbology instead. That is why the snake/fruit symbology is used, and why it is so confusing.

 

[shawn]

More specifics. According to my belief system, monstrosities such as the minotaur (half-human, half-horse), satyr (half-human, half-goat), mermaid (hallf-human, half-fish), etc., really did happen, due to debauchery with animals.

The writers of Genesis chose not to use sexually graphic language. They chose to use snake/fruit symbology instead. That is why the snake/fruit symbology is used, and why it is so confusing.

debauchery with animals does not produce mutants.
Any biology student can tell you that.

But genetic manipulations in a lab certainly can get results.
Way back then it was not people doing the genetic modifications.
It was these "alleged gods" doing the gene splicing.

 

[shawn]

Gatekeeper,

Allow me to give my interpretation of Genesis, according to my belief system. As soon as humanity became able to have sex, the whole lot of humanity descended into one huge orgy. Even debauchery with animals became common. The human race fell into deep debauchery, and put all of us behind schedule. We are still behind schedule as a result.

This is part of the clever plan to produce feelings of guilt in humans.
Be guilty for your animal impulses which drive you.
They don't teach you how to control them or channel them into beneficial uses, but they certainly want people to feel guilty for having them, and then repress them, which just leads to even more problems...similar to the ones the catholics have been having as is being discussed in another thread.

 

[xcvbxcvb]

It's the Milky Way.

I don't know why no one ever listens to me.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"I don't know why no one ever listens to me."

...I'm sorry, did you say something?

 

[Thomas]

Hi Gatekeeper —

My view is that the serpent represents our 'personal, self serving desires, or rather self will. When Eve was tempted, it is my view that she was simply tempted by her own selfishness, or rather the part existing in mankind that is self seeking.

I think the same way. The serpent, as a symbol, is simply the externalisation of an internal process. The dialogue with the serpent is, one might say, the psyche talking to itself.

The basic data of the Fall is quite simple.

God creates the Cosmos, and creates humanity.
God places humanity in the cosmos, and gives it a role.
God also gives it a degree of self-determination — free will.

The deal is that man's will should be in accord with the divine will.
From an athiestic viewpoint, human freedom should work within the constraints of nature, towards it's own good and the good of all. Our present environmental/ecological problems derive from our desire to 'bend' nature to serve our own ends — my ephemeral and immediate good, rather than the good of the species, the planet, etc.

In short, God says, do this, and everything in the garden will be lovely, do that, and you will die – which I read to be work in harmony with the all and you will be sustained by the all, work to your own ends only and you will sever the unity that sustains you – no man is an island, and all that.

The serpent says:
A: God is lying.
B: Eat the fruit and you will become all-knowing and eternally self-sustaining.

My suggestion is:
A: God doesn't lie. If God says something, you can take that to the bank.
B: The serpent did lie. Man ate the fruit and found he could neither sustain himself as he had done prior to that moment, nor did he become immortal, nor all-knowing. Quite the reverse ... he discovered both subjective and objective ignorance — he lost the sense of self (he saw himself as naked) and the sense of his place in the cosmos (he hid).

The net result is everyone started blaming everyone else for their own mistake — Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent ... but neither of them could say they were not warned.

The flesh, which represents 'self will' (lust) is in opposition to the Spirit (Love) which represents 'Gods will'.

A good analogy, but not to be taken too far. The dualists (Platonism, gnosticism, etc) push this to an extreme, all flesh is evil. This is not the case. The fault, remember, lies not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

The serpent is simply the part of our nature that is self serving. It is that part of us that is disobedient to Gods will. It is that part of us that is in opposition to God.

Makes sense to me.

In the beginning God declared all things very good.

A point often overlooked.

Something is good on three counts:
1: Its cause
2: Its purpose
3: Its end

Any good then points towards its end. By eating the fruit, the symbolism infers man serving his own end. A short-term gain surrendering a long-term result.

Our free will to choose is not a bad thing, as I believe it was not only necessary that we disobey God, but also preordained. I believe this because our hardships ultimately lead us closer to God.

I tend to disagree. This assumes that hardship is the only way to God? I rather think the primordial couple enjoyed a degree of union with the divine we can only hope for. The whole story of Scripture is God constantly trying to re-establish that original union which would, had man grown properly, attained its end in the Divine.

Thomas

 

[Dream]

It's the Milky Way.

I don't know why no one ever listens to me.

It doesn't mean there's a problem with you, and everyone feels that way. People must work hard to make friends and encourage friendliness in others, so continue with your own valiant efforts. Overlook insults, which often are actually attempts to be over-intimate. They are just stupid mistakes. Don't expect too much intimacy or reliability from friends, new or old. Friends only get better over long periods of time, like baked bread. The trick is never to burn them and also not to eat them but share them instead with everyone you meet.

 

[Thomas]

They tried to tell us that the original sin was sex.

I don't know to whom your 'they' refers, but in the context of Christianity, and the reading of Genesis, the events in the Garden of Eden, the serpent, the fruit, and the original or ancestral sin, has nothing to do with sex.

Sex came after ... sex is an effect, not the cause, or rather sex is a symptom of the sickness, not its source.

Thomas