I think everyone is an agnostic deep down.

A

Adela Andrei

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I think everyone is an agnostic deep down. If souls live in our hearts and minds, then can they be kidnapped and held captive? The author feels a mysterious force sweep away his soul, he embarks on a spiritual quest and appeals to an unusual being for help - the devil.
 
Adela Andrei said:
I think everyone is an agnostic deep down. If souls live in our hearts and minds, then can they be kidnapped and held captive? The author feels a mysterious force sweep away his soul, he embarks on a spiritual quest and appeals to an unusual being for help - the devil.
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Deep down the agnostic appeals to the devil?

Or is everyone a believer deep down... blaming G!d for their issues, praying to G!d when all hope is lost?

Everyone remember the atheist and the bear?
 
I think everyone is just like me, deep down. The alternative is that we have real differences, which is icky-poo and scary-wary-woo.
 
Dogbrain said:
I think everyone is just like me, deep down. The alternative is that we have real differences, which is icky-poo and scary-wary-woo.
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Considering the alternatives, I'll go with icky-poo and scary-wary-woo. ;)
 
Virtual_Cliff said:
They say everyone on a falling aircraft is a true believer.
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I doubt it. There must be one or two extraordinary individuals who can transcend their fear.

It is one thing if one can maintain calm, compassion, and courage in the face of death, injustice, or another suffering in life through faith that all will be redeemed. It is a whole different strength to let go of that faith and yet still find strength that comes from within.

Ultimately, I suppose that inner strength is what I think is God... in extension through us. But what that buys me, I'm not sure. I've come to find that for me, liberation came in that lack of surity. Strength came in that space. I learned who I was, and what my experience of God meant to me. More than anything, I want freedom from fear. I want to face death and all the unpleasantries of life without a grasping neediness.

I want whatever love I have for God Herself- for whatever this non-human, profoundly limitless force is- to come from a space of liberation, not fear. I want to love God to love God... not to serve myself.

That's the problem I'm finding with faith... too often, it is just a symptom of fear. There may be no atheists in foxholes, but are there any truly faithful servants of the Divine there either? Belief out of quelling fear is hardly a true offering of oneself to the Divine.
 
All newborn babies are atheists. That is they have no concept or any kind of belief in any kind of god or even a platypus. They must be taught about gods to ever have an opinion. They can later have an opinion that God is real, or God is imaginary, or not sure about the reality of God (Agnostic.)

Most babies are fed meme viruses about the God their parents believe in. American and European babies are mainly led to some kind of belief in the family's God by repeated meme input on a daily basis. Arab and Turkic babies are fed memes about Allah. Jews are fed memes about JHWY.

However, God is invisible. God makes no noises so we cannot hear him. God is intangible so we cannot feel him. There is no phenomenon that we can observe being caused by a hypothetical god.

This is an obvious set-up for a kid to question this belief in gods. Why do we believe in something we cannot see, hear, feel, or observe phenomena caused by the thing that is invisibl?

A minority of children do not believe in gods. I am one of them now grown up and still a non-believer.

A majority of people and children are agnostics to some extent on a wide spectrum. At the left end of the spectrum, perhaps 1 or 2% of devout Theists occasionally harbour transient doubts about God.

Some in the middle of the spectrum believe in God but frequently have questions about their belief, and the existence of their particular god or any god. They work constantly at suppressing their doubt.

Then on the far right of the spectrum are people who are weak believers, largely because of the deluded hope of immortality. Yet they feel definitely that Christian or Islamic dogma simply does not make sense. Even God does not make sense. However, this person takes Pascal's Wager in the hope of immortality and or fear of Hell.

Some Atheists may even be Agnostics. They reason that there is no evidence of God, but there is some remote possibility that they could be missing something. They think about a possible God, but soon give up and admit non-belief.

Perhaps the Thread author is right; almost everyone is to some extent, an agnostic. Agnosticism varies from 0.1% to 99.9%.

Amergin
 
path_of_one said:
There may be no atheists in foxholes, but are there any truly faithful servants of the Divine there either? Belief out of quelling fear is hardly a true offering of oneself to the Divine.
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I really resent that lie, "there are no Atheists in Foxholes."

Colonel Robert G. Ingersoll, famous 19th Century Atheist-Agnostic, poet and philosopher, fought for the Union Army during the American Civil War against the Confederacy and Slavery.

Moviemaker, Oliver Stone, is an Atheist who was definitely in the foxholes during the Vietnam War. Statistically about 10% of US draftee soldiers in Vietnam were atheists or agnostics and likely accounted for 10% of the 57,000 deaths of US troops.

I am an Atheist veteran in the British Army during the Falkland's War (against Argentina) and I often found myself crouching in the Foxhole and in my Northern Ireland Tour, found myself crouching behind barricades with some fellow British atheists.

Atheists died on the beaches of Normandy, the deserts of North Africa, the Battle of the Bulge, and the bloody war of Russia against Nazi Germany. Atheists fought on numerous Pacific Islands, Burma (Myanmar), Thailand, Malaya, New Guinea, and China.

The Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (MAAF) has a long list of atheist (Americans) who were in Foxholes, cockpits, and on warships.
Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers

Please do not demean patriotic soldiers who risked (and lost) their lives defending their country because the hero lacked a god belief. Denying our courage and patriotism is a low blow.

Amergin
 
I looked up several definitions of Agnosticism. The problem I have with agnosticism mostly comes down to semantics. It is the apologetic notion that because one refuses to profess disbelief in a concept like deity, one has allowed for the possibility of that contingency- however unlikely. I don't think that a contention for the possibility of deity even comes close to penetrating the deepest basement of what can be considered quantifieably or in any sort of rational terms. IOW, no one can even put forward the question in a way which satisfies the rudimentary requirements of a thing that can be considered in rational terms. It cannot be brought in from the realm of the metaphysical.

In that sense I have a similar problem with Atheism to the extent that it even entertains the possibility of a rebuttal. One cannot even begin to discuss the possibility without an element of belief one way or the other.

Chris
 
Amergin said:
I really resent that lie, "there are no Atheists in Foxholes."
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I meant it in a metaphoric way as a reference to the general cultural understanding of fear yielding faith.

As should have been obvious from the rest of my post, which affirms that true courage means we can face insecurity and lack of knowledge as self-actualized individuals.

I mean this in a kind way (I know internet can be a poor forum to denote sentiment): you seem a bit reactionary.
 
Amergin said:
All newborn babies are atheists. That is they have no concept or any kind of belief in any kind of god or even a platypus.
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You are putting a very typical dogmatic, partisan spin on the reality. In reality, all newborn babies are ignorant. Therefore, using your reasoning, ignorance = atheism, which logically extends to atheism = ignorance.
 
Dogbrain said:
You are putting a very typical dogmatic, partisan spin on the reality. In reality, all newborn babies are ignorant. Therefore, using your reasoning, ignorance = atheism, which logically extends to atheism = ignorance.
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You misunderstood me. All babies are cognitively blank slates. They know next to nothing. Instinctual genetic brain behaviour gives them hunger and thirst, makes them poop and pee, and become attached to a mother who feeds them.

They have no idea what a god is, or a platypus, or a Pachycephalosaurus. They cannot speak and likely their brain's language centre has no words in the circuitry.

I suppose you could call all babies Atheists because they likely do not know what god or atheist means. You could call them all agnostics because they know next to nothing. If you wish to call that ignorance, then I suppose all humans are born into total ignorance.

Babies are ignorant of God, Jesus, the Trinity as well. So you could turn that around to Ignorance=God, and ignorance = Jesus. After all those myths are not yet brain washed into their pre-toddler brains.

It is not a bypartisan spin. Babies are all atheists as well as being ignorant of other things like God and Demons.

Amergin
 
Amergin said:
You misunderstood me. All babies are cognitively blank slates. They know next to nothing. Instinctual genetic brain behaviour gives them hunger and thirst, makes them poop and pee, and become attached to a mother who feeds them.

They have no idea what a god is, or a platypus, or a Pachycephalosaurus. They cannot speak and likely their brain's language centre has no words in the circuitry.

I suppose you could call all babies Atheists because they likely do not know what god or atheist means. You could call them all agnostics because they know next to nothing. If you wish to call that ignorance, then I suppose all humans are born into total ignorance.

Babies are ignorant of God, Jesus, the Trinity as well. So you could turn that around to Ignorance=God, and ignorance = Jesus.
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No, only an extremely narrow-minded fundamentalist atheist would make such a claim. You claim that babies are all atheists because they are ignorant. I have not claimed that babies are all Christian because they are ignorant. I have never stated that we are all born Christian. You, on the other hand, equate ignorance to atheism and thus claim that everyone begins as an atheist.



It is not a bypartisan spin. Babies are all atheists as well as being ignorant of other things like God and Demons.
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Oh, dearie, dearie, me. You don't even know the difference between "partisan" and "bipartisan", AND you can't even spell "bipartisan", to boot.

And what are those publications you have as a working scientist, by the way, since telling us all how science works is so important to you?
 
Amergin has an axe to grind (for some reason) against religions in general.
So all his (or her) posts have the same flavor you will find.
I don't disagree with such sentiment as all religions are about control and not liberation or enlightenment (for the most part), but I don't go along with certain assumptions which amergin seeks to promote.
 
Amergin said:
All newborn babies are atheists. That is they have no concept or any kind of belief in any kind of god or even a platypus. They must be taught about gods to ever have an opinion. They can later have an opinion that God is real, or God is imaginary, or not sure about the reality of God (Agnostic.)

Most babies are fed meme viruses about the God their parents believe in. American and European babies are mainly led to some kind of belief in the family's God by repeated meme input on a daily basis. Arab and Turkic babies are fed memes about Allah. Jews are fed memes about JHWY.

However, God is invisible. God makes no noises so we cannot hear him. God is intangible so we cannot feel him. There is no phenomenon that we can observe being caused by a hypothetical god.

This is an obvious set-up for a kid to question this belief in gods. Why do we believe in something we cannot see, hear, feel, or observe phenomena caused by the thing that is invisibl?

A minority of children do not believe in gods. I am one of them now grown up and still a non-believer.

A majority of people and children are agnostics to some extent on a wide spectrum. At the left end of the spectrum, perhaps 1 or 2% of devout Theists occasionally harbour transient doubts about God.

Some in the middle of the spectrum believe in God but frequently have questions about their belief, and the existence of their particular god or any god. They work constantly at suppressing their doubt.

Then on the far right of the spectrum are people who are weak believers, largely because of the deluded hope of immortality. Yet they feel definitely that Christian or Islamic dogma simply does not make sense. Even God does not make sense. However, this person takes Pascal's Wager in the hope of immortality and or fear of Hell.

Some Atheists may even be Agnostics. They reason that there is no evidence of God, but there is some remote possibility that they could be missing something. They think about a possible God, but soon give up and admit non-belief.

Perhaps the Thread author is right; almost everyone is to some extent, an agnostic. Agnosticism varies from 0.1% to 99.9%.

Amergin
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As to the fascinating question of whether very young children have what can be termed "spiritual" or "psychic awareness that most adults seem not be privy to, the literature which has emerged during the past 7 years- not to mention anecdotal information some adults have been aware of from time immemorial, the answer seems to be they do. Seems innate. As to "beliefs" around what those experiences mean, i.e., "God" in particular and what "God" means, that, of course, is open to being shaped by the limited understanding of the kid and the environment in which the kid lives. earl
 
earl said:
As to the fascinating question of whether very young children have what can be termed "spiritual" or "psychic awareness that most adults seem not be privy to, the literature which has emerged during the past 7 years- not to mention anecdotal information some adults have been aware of from time immemorial, the answer seems to be they do. Seems innate. As to "beliefs" around what those experiences mean, i.e., "God" in particular and what "God" means, that, of course, is open to being shaped by the limited understanding of the kid and the environment in which the kid lives. earl
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Of course I have an axe to grind toward religion. I think religion has done endless injustice to people, supported evil dictators, kings, and republics (i.e. Iran.) It makes sense to me that religion has caused countless wars in the past 1700 years. This must be seen along with persecutions, inquisitions, witch burnings, oppression of freedom, genocides of infidels, execution of scientific thinkers and heretics, and a general policy of instilling fear in the minds of children. Religion often excuses child abuse and brutality. I think of religion as a plague that has done tremendous harm to humanity.

A newborn baby does not have an already established brain circuitry for belief in Allah. That also applies to Jesus, JHWY, and Brahma. If babies had some brain programme to believe in god they would all believe in one god only across the world. Obviously the idea that babies come already programmed into the family's religion is utter ignorant rubbish.

Amergin
 
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