Srebrenica Genocide--Do not forget!!!

Hi/salaam--

Amos, I think you are right. It is extremely offensive to have rewarded the war crimes by establishing the "Republic of Serbs" within Bosnia & Herzegovina.

Radarmark, if you are thinking about numbers, then perhaps yes it is over the top to compare Serb war atrocities and Nazis. After all, the Nazis murdered 6 million Jews (among millions of others non-Jews) which would be equal to all 4 million people living in Bosnia and Herzegovina, plus half of that. However, the tactics the Serbs used in the recent war were the same:

1) extermination of whole families, not just in Srebrenica but also in other towns (Prijedor, Foca, Kozarac, Bijeljina, etc.--google and see).
2) Mass rape--regardless of who the people were (children, women, men).
3) Destruction of religious objects. In my hometown of Banja Luka (where there we no active war activities) all 16 mosques were either damaged or completely destroyed.
4) Ethnic cleansing--there were 500,000 non-Serb people (Muslims, Catholics, Jews, Roma) living on the territory of today's RS. Today, only 2% of that population has returned to their homes.
5) Discrimination--non Serbs were forbidden to work during the war in areas under Serb control. To this day, non Serbs very rarely are able to find employment in the region. Only political positions that really hold no power at all. And even that is due to European Union's pressure.

According to unofficial statistics, there are at least 20,000 people still considered missing. 17 years after the war stopped, people are still unearthing mass graves. Reported are 25,000 cases of rapes. Rape camps, both for male and female victims, were not uncommon.

Rabbi Schneier of New York City seemed to have understand what people of Bosnia have suffered. He actually came and visited Srebrenica this past Wednesday, 7/11/2012. Turns out, he is a good friend of Bosnia's grand mufti Ceric. Listening to his speech, I felt like there was someone who actually knows what Bosnian people went through. The rabbi himself lost all his family in Holocaust. When he said that he understood the pain of the survivors, people looked at him. And one could tell that there is a mutual understanding among them. Among Srebrenica survivors there are women who lost everyone in their family: husbands, sons, brothers, fathers, etc.
 
Yes, but "ethic cleansing" and all the rest really do not meet the UN definition of genocide (okay, it does according to some scholars). Until the UN or ICC define "whole or in part" so that the "part" part is somehow meanuraqble or quantified, I do not consider "genocide" applicable.

If the Srebrenica case is applied to, say the civilians killed in the Hamburg or Tokyo raaids, they would be genocide. In the small, if the case is applied to just one villiage in Liberia or Nigeria where 100% of the villiage was killed for economic reasons and represent >>>> 1% of the race or ethnicity, these actions, too, would be genocide. Finally, using the criteria, Kampuchea would be genocide.

See, you can use those on you own to point out the hooror of the incidents. But in the end the definition would be cheapened (are the hijackers of 9-11 guilty of genocide). I just think it is pre-mature. Rwanda yes, Srebernica, no.

The term needs to be reserved for really horrendous events with only an ethnic motive that threaten say, over 50% of the ethnicity within a country.

Rabbi Schneier is a great man, but until this issue is legally addressed, I cannot consider 8,000 or <1% an act of genocide.
 
I must say, my uncle and my father are in virtual Wall of Honoured as Righteous among Nations in Yad Vashem Memorial Center in Israel. Holocaust is something what is not compairable with anything else. Holocaust is when somebody counting survivors, ONLY!

To proof genocide, the main is to proof INTENTION to do genocide. ICTY and ICJ, two different courts in Den Hague, they say, SREBRENICA WAS GENOCIDE (pulstop).

Of course that nobody can compaire Genocide v.s. Holocaust. Genocide in Bosnia was not in Srebrenica, only. See previous post of @Amica.

All victims in Bosnia, they have small satisfaction that perpetrators of genocide are panished with taking off a part of their Teritory. South Serbian province Kosovo. Republic KosovA is State Panishment.

And perpetrators of Genocide in Srebrenica, in different country, they awarded with allmost a half of teritory(49%).

Dayton agreement is American success, and it is not necessary to be done repealing of B&H entity Republika Srpska,but to change content and substance inside - YES!

The first to change name of entity because of it belongs to all ethnic groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina, later on to change all laws according to Europian Declaration Human Rights.

GO SEARCH ''Yad Vashem-Bosnia Righteous''- I am not yet qoualified to put links or pictures at this Forum.
Here under upper link are names of my uncle and father who honoured 1997 with medal Righteous Among Nations from Israely Government. They were Muslims, at the first, human beeings, neighbours who helped their neighbours when their lives were in danger.

30% Jewish people survived Holocaust in Bosnia, recorder is Albania, allmost 98%.
 
What the international community refused to publicly admit is that Bosniacks have been murdered on mass in other towns as well. Prijedor's concentration camp, Omarska, alone had at least 3000 men (majority Muslim, some Catholics) murdered inside it. Also, the same concentration camp had female side of the camp where hundreds of women and girls were raped continually. Serbs had a plan to systematically kill off Bosniacks (Muslims). Another is Kozarac. The town had 25,000 residents. They were given ultimatum to submit to the Serbian government or else. They did not submit so they were leveled. To this day, hundreds of men have never been found. Many were taken to Omarska, Trnopolje and Keraterm concentration camps. I do not have to mention the towns of Foca, Bijeljina, Zvornik, and other places. All towns where the civilians were primary targets, men separated from women then taken to camps or murdered on mass right on the spot. I believe that when a people is systematically attacked and thousands are murdered, then yes that is a genocide. Whether it is 8000 or 50 million--I do not care. People are people, and in both cases to me it equals to genocide. For I value life, and even one person's life means so much to me. And in Bosnia, the genocide was not just 8000 men and boys of Srebrenica. There were thousands of other Bosniack genocide victims that the international community decided to ignore. :(
What is evident is that the Europe lied when they promised 'never again' after WWII. They allowed murder of innocent people, playing a game of 'mouse and cat' with Serbs. So, today, they say 'never again' once more. But who will believe them?
 
Amos, you are right. In this vile world murder pays off for some/is rewarded.
 
radarmark said:
"who remembers the Armenians?"... attributed to A. Hitler during the discussion of the final solution.
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I do not understand, I am sorry, I did not read the discussion about the final solution.
Bosniaks were in Austro-Hungarian empire during WWI and later we do not have anything with last Sultan in Turkey and president Ataturk. We are not Turks. We are not perpetrators genocide against Armenians.
 
No, it was an endorsement of your call to never forget. The "Never Again" motto of the Kahanist JDL us4ed to use the quote. See, by the time Hitler decided on Shoah, the West had already forgotten the Armenians. Similarly, by the time of the Bosnian troubles, many has forgotten (or deliberately whitewashed) Shoah.

I believe what happened in the Bosnian War (I was processing intelligence at the time) was a grave crime the World Court, NATO, and the U.S. should have more vigorously prosecuted. The Serbian government at the time and the Serbian leaders in the War did try to commit genocide ("crimes against humanity").

I looked up ICJ and ICTY rulings. I think they are not final yet. This is, after all, a relatively new process. I would support (and I believe) that the Serbs in the Bosnian War tried to commit genocide and should be prosecuted under that heading. To call Srebrenica a genocide, but6 not the entire conflict, is (I believe) a misuse of the term. That is all I am saying... I do not think genocide applies to Srebrenica because if that one action was genocide, then the anti-Shiite bombings are and the Bulgarian bombing was. And I believe that to be trivializing.

Bosnia, Rwanda, yes genocides (the ICJ does not agree with me). Srebrenicia, no (again, the ICJ does not agree with me). I may be wrong and my opinion does not counbt in the light of world opinion, but I do have a right to make up my own mind and express it.
 
Hi Radarmark--

Bosniack people have charged Serbia for genocide in all Bosnia&Herzegovina. Unfortunately, for the international court to recognize such would damage some political gains they hope to get. Hence, Radovan Karadzic (the Bosnian Serb war leader) is not going to be charged for genocides in other towns besides Srebrenica. Politics as usual.

Like Amos mentioned earlier, Bosnian Muslims were not part of the Ottoman Empire when Armenian genocide happened. I find it horrible that the modern Turkish government would not recognize genocide as it did happen. What is even more horrifying is France and Turkey going at it about about whose genocide was worse. "No you killed more people, no you killed more people," as if it matters. What matters is the recognition of injustices that Algerian Muslims and Armenian Christians experienced. In a normal world, a true democratic nation would be ashamed of having committed a genocide as part of their history. Of course, this is not a normal world we live in. :(
 
The Hitler quote was to re-enforce the message of this thread..."Do not forget". In the general mess that was Bosnia (as I remember it), Srebrenica was nothing compared to the hiderlands (Kozarac, Hambarine, Keraterm and Omarska) where the victims included women and children and acts (as I remember--like machine-gunning families under white flags) were much more brutal.

Let me repeat, it was genocide in Bosnia-Herzegovina (in my opinion). The ICJ has really missed the boat by considering Srebrenica a genocide and not the entire war. And I do not think (because of the percentages of population involved and the limited area) Srebrenica on its own rises to that level.
 
radarmark said:
No, it was an endorsement of your call to never forget. The "Never Again" motto of the Kahanist JDL us4ed to use the quote. See, by the time Hitler decided on Shoah, the West had already forgotten the Armenians. Similarly, by the time of the Bosnian troubles, many has forgotten (or deliberately whitewashed) Shoah.

I believe what happened in the Bosnian War (I was processing intelligence at the time) was a grave crime the World Court, NATO, and the U.S. should have more vigorously prosecuted. The Serbian government at the time and the Serbian leaders in the War did try to commit genocide ("crimes against humanity").

I looked up ICJ and ICTY rulings. I think they are not final yet. This is, after all, a relatively new process. I would support (and I believe) that the Serbs in the Bosnian War tried to commit genocide and should be prosecuted under that heading. To call Srebrenica a genocide, but6 not the entire conflict, is (I believe) a misuse of the term. That is all I am saying... I do not think genocide applies to Srebrenica because if that one action was genocide, then the anti-Shiite bombings are and the Bulgarian bombing was. And I believe that to be trivializing.

Bosnia, Rwanda, yes genocides (the ICJ does not agree with me). Srebrenicia, no (again, the ICJ does not agree with me). I may be wrong and my opinion does not counbt in the light of world opinion, but I do have a right to make up my own mind and express it.
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This intention to try to commit genocide is enough to the crime be genocide. But, with various manipulations with some documents to not be presented at ICJ (State secret), state Serbia avoid adjudgement for genocide. Karla del Ponte was involved in these manipulations.
 
radarmark said:
No, it was an endorsement of your call to never forget. The "Never Again" motto of the Kahanist JDL us4ed to use the quote. See, by the time Hitler decided on Shoah, the West had already forgotten the Armenians. Similarly, by the time of the Bosnian troubles, many has forgotten (or deliberately whitewashed) Shoah.

I believe what happened in the Bosnian War (I was processing intelligence at the time) was a grave crime the World Court, NATO, and the U.S. should have more vigorously prosecuted. The Serbian government at the time and the Serbian leaders in the War did try to commit genocide ("crimes against humanity").

I looked up ICJ and ICTY rulings. I think they are not final yet. This is, after all, a relatively new process. I would support (and I believe) that the Serbs in the Bosnian War tried to commit genocide and should be prosecuted under that heading. To call Srebrenica a genocide, but6 not the entire conflict, is (I believe) a misuse of the term. That is all I am saying... I do not think genocide applies to Srebrenica because if that one action was genocide, then the anti-Shiite bombings are and the Bulgarian bombing was. And I believe that to be trivializing.

Bosnia, Rwanda, yes genocides (the ICJ does not agree with me). Srebrenicia, no (again, the ICJ does not agree with me). I may be wrong and my opinion does not counbt in the light of world opinion, but I do have a right to make up my own mind and express it.
Click to expand...

I must repeat quotation because expired time for edditing previous post.
Sorry.

Yes ICJ agree with you according to Srebrenica which is part of Bosnia. They not jujged state Serbia for genocide in Srebrenica, nor in Bosnia, but they said Genocide in Srebrenica was commited and in the pragraf 386 of the Sentence they said who commited Srebrenica Genocide.
It was Army and Police of B&H Entity Republika Srpska.

In my opinion, so called ''Internadional community'' tried to make joke when they determinate genocide in Srebrenica municipality.
Municipalitie's Genocide! Bitter-Funny

Fanny was also that Mr. Fransoa Mitterand, ex. president of France, came in Sarajevo during the war and he said something like this:
-No need intervention of international forces, only humanitarian aid is enough, no removing ban for weapons in ex. Yugoslavia which was in function only for Bosnian regular Army (In the begining, there were allmost 25%-non Bosniaks soldiers-non Muslims soldiers).

Ohter three armies were illegal, rebels.

If you were proccessing info about satelite photos of mass graves in Bosnia and if rulles and laws allow you to speak about it, please contact International Commission for missing persons for Bosnia. Offer your infos to help in finding allmost 29 000 still missing people.

I cannot put the link. Please use the Google search.

We do not want removing Genocidal Entity Republika Srpska, just to change itself, the first name, because it does not belongs only to Bosnian Serbs. Later, other changes of Dayton Constitution of B&H. For example, so called Parliamentary Entitie's voting, which provide to only 7 deputies to blokade entire state....

Everybody will be happy, Bosnian Serbs will not be genocidal people because guiltness will be personilazed. Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks will be able to return from all over the world at their properties, land, objects,...etc. That return will be sustainable return.

USA will be able to use their international success-We used to help Muslims. Doesn't matter will say this Democrats or Republikans. For both it was USA success in stopping the war.
 
Amos-- that is what happens when states and international groups get involved. There is more than enough blame to go around. What I can say is that civilized, moral, caring, and just people everywhere have to remember the Genocide in the Americas, the Armenian Genocide, Shoah, the Bosnian Genocide, the Ruwandan Genocide as different from (say) Stalin in Russian or Mao in China or Pol Pot in Cambodia or Tamerlane in South Asia.

It is like the difference between the recent shooting in Golden Colorado (at the Batman movie) and that in Wisconson (at Sikh Temple). One (Golden) just targeted innocent people (morally bad). One targeted innocent people because of some ethnic, racial, or religious difference (morally, I think, badder). Even though the total number killed was worse in the case of Golden or in Mao's China.

I am awaiting the ICJ's final ruling. If Republika Srpska is not held responsible in the end, I will have to (G!D forbid) side with the radical right here and say the U.S. should have nothing to do with an international court because of politics.
 
@radarmark,
All of I would like to do for Bosnia, my country is to help to find bodies of killed people. I am not yet allowed to put in the Forum links and pictures. Please, search by Google or some other Search page for INSTITUTION for MISSING PERSONS BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA. Help them on any way. There are aprox. 29 000 persons whose bodies are missing, allmost 20 years after the war.
 
I must make correction of my info about ''still missing persons''.

It is not 29 000. It is aprox. 8 000 according to local news at Radio of Federation Bosnia and Herzegovina.
 
radarmark said:
Amos-- that is what happens when states and international groups get involved. There is more than enough blame to go around. What I can say is that civilized, moral, caring, and just people everywhere have to remember the Genocide in the Americas, the Armenian Genocide, Shoah, the Bosnian Genocide, the Ruwandan Genocide as different from (say) Stalin in Russian or Mao in China or Pol Pot in Cambodia or Tamerlane in South Asia.

It is like the difference between the recent shooting in Golden Colorado (at the Batman movie) and that in Wisconson (at Sikh Temple). One (Golden) just targeted innocent people (morally bad). One targeted innocent people because of some ethnic, racial, or religious difference (morally, I think, badder). Even though the total number killed was worse in the case of Golden or in Mao's China.

I am awaiting the ICJ's final ruling. If Republika Srpska is not held responsible in the end, I will have to (G!D forbid) side with the radical right here and say the U.S. should have nothing to do with an international court because of politics.
Click to expand...

I am afraid that ICJ finished their job. They left to Bosnian side to refresh accusation in a few years. That is so called CATCH 22. Bosnian Constitution signed in Paris/Dayton-Ohio gave rights to all three main Ethnicity the same rights what is good. But, at the last elections in Republika Srpska the elections won the same people like Karadzic Radovan and Ratko Mladic, accused of war crimes and genocide at ICTY-Court.

They have right to vote against refreshing of the accusation at ICJ.
:(
 
I believe you my frind, but because of language differences will check over weekend.

Gosh, I hate to quit supporting the ICJ (supporting it was seen as so anti-American).
 
@Radarmark,
I beg you if you know any info. about secundary, terciary,... mass graves precise locations, please contact Institution for Missing Persons in Bosnia and Herzegovina and offer your help to them.

Parents passing away and they do not have place to do their prays for their sons, brothers, husbands,...

If you wont brake any Law or Rull in the USA!
 
Dayton Peace Accord helped stop the bullets, but it was not complete solution. It needs reworking. It used to work, but as of now it is way outdated. It gave equal rights to three main, majority ethnic groups: Catholics, Christian Orthodox and Muslims. However, minorities were not included: Roma, Jews, etc. Sejdic (Roma) and Finci (Jewish) representatives sued the government and won. However, the international court judgement in their favor still has to be implemented. As of now, minorities are unequally represented in the government and can never be voted into the highest government posts. Some would say there is only few thousand of these people, but that is besides the point. Maybe Jews, atheists, etc. would be OK to be voted into presidency, for instance, but some in the main ethnic groups fear the Roma people. Why? Because, like elsewhere, Roma people tend to adopt religious identity of the majority population of a country they live in. So in Bosnia&Herzegovina the Roma are majority Muslim by religion. And this, my friends, does not fly well with some Catholic and Christian Orthodox nationalists.

Politics as usual.
 
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