Tough Questions for the Bible

ReligionAnalyst said:
At least in the Catholic church, they hold the Bible up and say "The word of the Lord" or "The word of God" (I forget which). But, if these are the words of the Lord or of God and we can show, such as with Noah's Ark, that they could not have possibly happened, doesn't that call the whole thing into doubt?
and in my synagogue, we hold up the Torah (pentateuch) scroll and say "this is the Torah which moses laid upon the children of israel" - which it is. however, this is hardly a statement of historically verifiable fact; it is a declaration of faith.

a lot of your objections appear to stem from the idea that something "could not have possibly happened", as you put it - but this assumes, of course, that G!D either doesn't Exist, G!D Forbid, or that Divine Intervention or Communication, let alone Revelation simply couldn't happen. this is, of course, a valid point of view, but if one doesn't share it, then of course something like the flood, or, frankly, a flock of flying pink elephants appearing in the sky, could also have happened. if you a priori reject anything supernatural or miraculous, then obviously you're going to have problems with the bible. however, many - including many people here - also have problems with the unverifiable assertions that these things are not possible.

You say the Bible is not a library to be dissected. Yet, it seems that is what happens every week at churches around the world. Small passages are read and treated as if they are the truth.
er... i don't really understand this. of course it's a text to be pored over in the smallest detail and understood, but this is not the same as *dissection*. dissection is what you are doing. it is like taking a radio apart to try and understand the musicians you are listening to on it.

What if the whole thing is just a story?
it is a *teaching*. and what is wrong with that?

Its OK "love thy neighbor" but what if your neighbor is a real jerk that plays his music too loud when you are trying to sleep, so you can wake up and be a productive member of society while he sleeps off his hangover and lives on welfare?
it is questions like this which, in judaism, understanding halakhah or religious law revolves around. can't work on the Sabbath? what do we mean by work, then? what happens if you do? when do you have to stop by? ...and so on.

However, in the case of Noah's Ark, the lesson seems to be "be good, or God will wipe out the entire planet, except for one selected family." And, if everybody died except Noah, his wife, his sons and his daughters, then doesn't that all make us desendents of incest? Kind of a problem there, don't you think?
not if noah's dependents numbered more than 50, which is implicit in the text. besides, if you go back far enough, we do all descend from one person.

i find it a bit surprising that you think you can identify "tough questions for the bible" without having enough familiarity with what it contains and how it works to not know whether father christmas is mentioned in it.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Don't know what I can add to what's already been said. I don't believe that the RCC's official position is that the mythology of the Pentateuch, that's the first five books of the Bible, is literally historical. I suppose I could Google it and give you a specific link, but I'll leave that simple exercise for you, RA. And really, contrary to what evangelicals may believe, reading the Torah as mythology doesn't lessen it's import one way or the other.

Chris
 
IMO, you can argue that the bible is full of untruth, but to do so with religious folk is like arguing about who killed JFK with the power structure who did him in.
It is a fruitless exercise and will get you nowhere.
As for the truth being out there...it is said early on the church knew the truth, but found out the masses did not want the truth. The truth contains a requirement of personal responsibility for your salvation, an understanding of as Paul said, put the mind of Christ in you.
There is no salvation, nor damnation.
There is only alive or dead/ ignorant or awake.
:)2c:)
 
I'll give you a real "tough" Bible question: Why do you suppose the "Jews" in the New Testament hate the "Samaritans" so much? Form a historically based answer to that and you'll have all the empirical fodder you need to figure out what's really going on in the Bible.

Chris
 
Either the Lord doesn't communicate well, or the church isn't actually getting it from the Lord, or they just don't listen very good.

I don't think science is really that important to God. God is more interested in his relationship with humanity than in scientific truth. If you're a computer geek and you give your son a computer, you don't have to tell your son how the machine works to "love" and care for him. You can fix it if it stops working. Your son doesn't need to know how the machine works.

Either the 9/11 hijackers get 72 virgins or they don't. If they don't then its either an error in the Quran or an error in the interpretation. Just my opinion here, but I don't think they get 72 virgins.

I don't think the 72 virgins thing is even in the Quran at all. It was suggested somewhere that it came from the hadiths. I can't read Arabic so I have no way of verifying except to speak to an expert on the Quran. But I couldn't be bothered.

Pretty amazing that one and only one family was righteous and the rest were corrupt beyond repair.

According to the Text, many of the people in Noah's day were descendants of angels who had sex with humans. As a consequence of being descendants of angels, many of them became superhuman. Imagine what it would be like to have so much power.

Also, civilisation as we know it today didn't exist. There were no borders, no countries, no legal system, no statecraft. "People" were just people.

Today we live under the authority of legal systems that require us to follow their laws and try to be "virtuous members of society." People back then would not have had that commitment or dedication. If you were a descendant of an angel and therefore superhuman (and somewhat immortal) it would probably make you somewhat reckless. The superhumanness would make your narcissistic and arrogant. This is what led to the wickedness in Noah's day.

I'm having trouble with the idea that people lived up to 1000 years. Then, immediately after Noah, it dropped back to 30 or 40 years? I guess that is what all that in-breeding within a family will do to you.

You're assuming that human physiology has always been the same and also that human existence is purely physical. But Adam and Eve didn't come into existence by natural means. Their creation was a miracle. So Adam and Eve came into existence by supernatural means.

But apart from just "coming to be" by supernatural means, could we also be supernatural beings with a connection to something in another plane of existence? According to Genesis, angels had sex with humans. Sex involves two creatures that are sexually compatible. The angels who had sex with humans would have done it both naturally and supernaturally. The product of their procreation would have been both a natural and supernatural being (as the angel was). But for the humans and angels to be sexually compatible on these terms, there had to be a part of the humans that was supernatural (a part existing in another plane).

So the humans had to be supernatural beings too to be able to act as the other partner during sex. If humans beings are supernatural beings then before the Flood we must have had some ability to slow the aging process, allowing us to live up to 1,000 years. After the Flood, we lost some of our powers.:D

if all that water was released, wouldn't that cause a lot of cave ins? Look at places on the earth (Las Vegas is one of them) where too much water has been pumped out of the underground Aquafer. The land is sinking.

Exactly, that was how God was able to create a flood of worldwide proportions. The land sank down and when God finally let go of all the water, it reached the tops of mountains!!!

Also, how was all this water pumped out? I know... God's magical powers.

He manipulated molecules of H2O. It was just a reorganisation of matter.

one that could not have been created out of wood using the technology of the day.

What makes you think the people were so "inferior," considering that some of the people at the time were actually superhuman? They probably understood physics and ship design. They just wouldn't have had the tools to make a high-tech vessel.
 
By what evidence or logic do you conclude that:
God is more interested in his relationship with humanity than in scientific truth.
?????????????????????????
The only effort anyone can see for all of recorded history is man seeking God.
Never the other way around.
Really, it is a one way street situation.
We want the relationship, God could care less. Apparently.
 
Adam and Eve didn't come into existence by natural means. Their creation was a miracle. So Adam and Eve came into existence by supernatural means.
Since we are just speculating wildly here:
I claim that we were genetically fabricated by ET's who wanted workers and we were intentionally made with genetic flaws to make our lives short and difficult.
This is no miracle.
This is subjugation.
That god is a farce and not worthy of any respect.
Kicked mankind out of "the garden" for learning his true situation so that he could not have easy access to remedy the built in genetic flaws.
Languages confused as we made progress in spite of god's damnable interference and malicious manipulations.
We are still in this handicapped, deformed situation thanks be to god.
It is directly those entities responsibility.
How can they presume to sit in judgement when they are guilty of the crime?
(for example: in the MK ULTRA program where they made assassins via brainwashing technologies (manchurian candidate types), who then is guilty of the crime???the assassin who is doing what they were programmed to do or the ones who did the programming??)
That bunch of gods are more like devils than righteous beings.
 
with genetic flaws to make our lives short and difficult.
This is no miracle.

Miracles don't have to be good luck. They don't have to make your life better. Miracles are simply a defiance of the natural laws of the universe.

This is subjugation.
That god is a farce and not worthy of any respect.
Kicked mankind out of "the garden" for learning his true situation so that he could not have easy access to remedy the built in genetic flaws.

With power comes responsibility. Unfortunately, this concept isn't always honoured, with CEOs getting salaries in excess of $400,000 and not sharing their hard-earned wealth with the least fortunate in society.

Languages confused as we made progress in spite of god's damnable interference and malicious manipulations.

It was an educational technique. Humanity needed to learn how to handle conflict.

We are still in this handicapped, deformed situation thanks be to god.

I think we have made progress. We have learnt from adversity.

How can they presume to sit in judgement when they are guilty of the crime?

Their crime? That's just your perspective. Crime is just a word with a negative connotation. If I can form an alternative perspective it means that it wasn't really a crime. Some people simply see it that way. The word simply labels something as "good" or "bad."

Judgment? If there is no injustice in the world, then why do we have laws and courts? It's almost like you're denying the existence of evil.

A bunch of mischievous American bankers lends hundreds of thousands of dollars to people who don't have a job and could never pay back the mortgage. Millions of people who don't have a job get deep into debt because they feel "entitled" to home ownership, see their friends doing it and decide to do it too. It's called greed. That is what I call injustice and the greed that drives it deserves judgment.

Look what Amergin is doing in one of the other threads. In this one it is ReligionAnalyst. He/she is passing judgment on religious fundamentalists. Judgment? We do it all the time. Your mother does it. Your father does it. The media does it. Journalists do it. Judgment is abundant and common. Very often it has consequences. I believe there is little point complaining about the judgments of God if our own judgments of other people aren't fair.

The wrath-driven judgments of an angry God are likely to be indicative of whatever unfair judgments we made as mere mortals. Judge fairly and you will be judged fairly.

(for example: in the MK ULTRA program where they made assassins via brainwashing technologies (manchurian candidate types), who then is guilty of the crime???the assassin who is doing what they were programmed to do or the ones who did the programming??)
That bunch of gods are more like devils than righteous beings.

Adam and Eve would have been brainwashed when they were in the Garden of Eden. But God allowed them to choose freedom, to choose freethought and think for themselves. I think the God in the Garden wanted them to choose.

It is quite likely that before eating the fruit, they were more like wild animals. They were not "human" by our standards. They were more like pets in God's garden. But God made it possible for them to become more than pets, to rise above pethood to humanhood. Imagine if your pet dog decided that he was more than just a dog.

How much freedom does your dog receive from you? Would you allow your dog to wander in the streets in the city? Do you trust that your dog will be able to find his way back home? What about the farm animals that we use to make some of our food and milk? They have obviously been brainwashed to live the farm life, to allow us to use them to make food, milk and clothing.:) They are not allowed the freedom to become super-farm-animals. Does your average farm animal know how to write novels?

What freedom do we bestow on these lower life forms? The more we exploit others, the more we should expect God to exploit us and I think we are responsible for most of the exploitation that happens on this planet.
 
shawn said:
IMO, you can argue that the bible is full of untruth, but to do so with religious folk is like arguing about who killed JFK with the power structure who did him in.
or, alternatively, like arguing with someone tone-deaf about whether a particular type of music is worth listening to.

China Cat Sunflower said:
I'll give you a real "tough" Bible question: Why do you suppose the "Jews" in the New Testament hate the "Samaritans" so much? Form a historically based answer to that and you'll have all the empirical fodder you need to figure out what's really going on in the Bible.
i'm not sure i entirely understand the thrust of this question, but there is a hell of a lot of anti-samaritan stuff in the Talmud as well. but then again, we always thought that lot were duplicitous buggers, all very nicey-nicey when there was something to be made out of being jewish and nowhere to be seen when the going got tough.

shawn said:
The only effort anyone can see for all of recorded history is man seeking God.
Never the other way around.
Really, it is a one way street situation.
We want the relationship, God could care less. Apparently.
i think, shawn, you ought to take a look at a.j. heschel's seminal book on jewish theology, "G!D in Search of man", which takes precisely the opposing view to yourself.

Saltmeister said:
Miracles don't have to be good luck. They don't have to make your life better. Miracles are simply a defiance of the natural laws of the universe.
exactly - just ask pharaoh!

Adam and Eve would have been brainwashed when they were in the Garden of Eden. But God allowed them to choose freedom, to choose freethought and think for themselves. I think the God in the Garden wanted them to choose.
EXACTLY!!

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
I have long been fasinated by problems that within the last 100-200 years we have found with the bible.

For example, there is the issue with Noah's Arc and a global flood. Do a Google Search (since I can't post the link yet -- this is my first post) for "Problems with Noah's Arc"

Another one is the issue of Santa Claus and the speed at which he would have to travel to make it to every house in approx. 30 hours. See, for example, do a Google Search for "Why Santa Claus can't exist"

We have pretty strong evidence that it wasn't Adam and Eve, but evolution. Another hole in the Bible.

Bill Mahar points out that the concept that Mary was a virgin was only mentioned in 2 of the 4 gospels. That is a pretty significant fact to leave out in the other two. Was that something that was added to the bible at a later date?

According to the Bible, three wise men visited when Jesus was born. But, is there any discussion of Jesus after that, until he was much older? If these three wise men knew he was God's son, wouldn't there have been something of significance say during his 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th years of life? Anyone who has a child knows that during these years, a child can be quite a handful. It would seem to me that Jesus, like any child would still need his diaper changed, would still have temper tantrums, etc. All the things of growing up. Essentially, my question is -- what happened on day 2, and week 2 and month 2 with Jesus after these wise men left?

Am I the only one in this world that finds these questions troubling? I am sure that there are similar questions, issues and problems in Judism and the Muslim faiths as well.

Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe, but these things seem to be pretty big questions. Some say that Noah's Arc is an "alagory," meaning a myth. But, if that is true, then isn't it logical to ask what else in the Bible is also a myth?
There is evidence, if I remember, of a local flood that devastated much of the Mesopotamiac region. It would add much to the credibility of the story of Noah's ark. Also, the word used for world most probably means the known world. People were not spread at everywhere. The global flood is a myth. The story, in it's proper context, makes sense. The Babylonians also had a story of a "worldwide" flood.

I believe in theistic evolution, so your statement on Adam and Eve doesn't apply. The story of the garden is an allegory. By the way, allegory doesn't mean myth. It is more closely related to a metaphorical story. It is a story that contains a basic truth. It is more like poetry, really.

I will refrain from commenting on Mary being a virgin. It seems rather irrelevant to the legitimacy of the Bible. I will not deny that things were added and changed. It was written by men. That is why I can't consider the Bible as the 100% word of God. But I believe it is mostly true and untarnished.

How well have you researched the birth of Christ, from a Biblical and other standpoints? You should know that it was not necessarily three wise men, but it is assumed to be because three gifts were brought. Matthew 2:16 indicates that Jesus was about 2 years old when the wise men came to him. Also, another fun fact, Jesus was likely born in spring, Christmas lies on about the same date as a pagan holiday dedicated to the winter solstice.

Who knows? For whatever reason, no one recorded it, or we have not yet found the records. Perhaps the writers simply found that such information was not relevant. But it by no means prove the illegitimacy of the Bible.
 
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