Jew and atheist?

Amica

Amica

Well-Known Member
Messages
649
Reaction score
11
Points
18
Shalom to all--

Discussed some sub sects between various different religions, including Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Someone mentioned "Atheistic Judaism" as a way that some Jews ascribe to. Is this true? Can a person call himself/herself a Jew and declare himself as an atheist at the same time?
I always imagined that all Jews, regardless of differents point of view, would not declare themselves as atheists. Is there such a thing as an "atheistic jew"?

Thank you.
 
How does one define "Jew"? That answers your question.

1: Adherent to some form of the religion typically known as "Judaism".--atheistic jew is impossible.

2: Descendent of tribes or nations historically associated with the culture that normatively includes or included the religion typically known as "Judaism".--atheistic jew is possible.

That's what it comes down to. Are you a "Jew" from your faith or from your cultural history? If history is all that is necessary, one could be an atheistic Jew, a Christian Jew, a Muslim Jew, a Hindu Jew, a Wiccan Jew, ad infinitum. If adherence to the religion is a necessity, then one can only be a Jewish Jew.

Of course, then there is the question of what constitutes Judaism. Now that's a real red-meat issue among many Jews, these days.
 
The shj.org link has a section on philosophy, and the organization is just over 40 years old though I think Jewish humanism has been popular for longer than that. The site says Humanistic Judaism is the fifth branch of Judaism and that it is necessary for the survival of the Jewish people. I will watch with interest to see if it does indeed help with the survival and preservation of Jewish people and culture. In the past, the Reform movement lost a lot of membership through attrition and had to backpedal a little bit toward conservatism in order to keep people interested. I realize that's a big generalization, however I wonder if humanistic Judaism will keep the interest of the kids that grow up under it. More importantly I wonder if it can earn the respect of conservative Jews, such as some of the Orthodox.
 
Thank you for your replies. I was surprised at the answers, I have to admit. As I always believed that when one declares himself a Jew, than it is the question of religion (regardless how little or how much one chooses to practice).

I will check the links.
 
Can one be a German without worshiping Donnar, Wotan, etc.?
 
Dream said:
The site says Humanistic Judaism is the fifth branch of Judaism and that it is necessary for the survival of the Jewish people.
Click to expand...
hmm. i think they're rather overselling themselves, if all they can manage on the east coast of the US is 12 congregations - firstly, many branches of traditional reform and liberal judaism cover most "humanistic" territory, so it's a lot older than 40 years old and, secondly, there are a lot more branches than five! i also think they sound very similar to the reconstructionists (they take jewish "ethnic culture" as their touchpoint) would have something to say about it, only they're really not doing terribly well as a movement and have never had much success outside america.

I will watch with interest to see if it does indeed help with the survival and preservation of Jewish people and culture. In the past, the Reform movement lost a lot of membership through attrition and had to backpedal a little bit toward conservatism in order to keep people interested.
Click to expand...
and i don't think that's going to change any time soon. american reform assimilation rates are running at over 50%, whereas the strictly orthodox have a very very high birth rate indeed.

More importantly I wonder if it can earn the respect of conservative Jews, such as some of the Orthodox.
Click to expand...
the words "monkeys", "fly" and "butt" leap inescapably to mind.

most famous "media jews" tend to be of the atheist/humanist persuasion, in my experience, especially comedians, writers, directors etc, everyone from woody allen to stephen fry. jewish enough to write "as-a-jew" petitions to newspapers whenever they wish to disassociate themselves with israel, but perfectly happy to go on about bagels and the usual stereotypes of the "new york nebbish", for which i recommend the novels of philip roth, in particular "portnoy's complaint" and indeed those of howard jacobson, whose new book is particularly concerned with this.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Um, bb: how do you view Chaim Potok (I believe that's the man who wrote The Promise {I think that was the title of the book about two Jewish friends, one Chassidic and the other was Reform/secular}.)

Sorry about this (asking my usual stupid question.) *heads for Mope Corner where several :kitty:s await their slave.*

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
 
There is a very funny sort-of-Marxist philosopher from one of the Yugoslav states (Croatia, I think?) named Zhizhek (spelling?) who had this bit about how, when you hear that someone is an "atheist" you can always tell which God it is that he doesn't believe in: "When you read Spinoza, or Freud, or Marx, you know right away that you are dealing specifically with a Jewish atheist; on the other hand, Heidegger is most definitely a Lutheran atheist; and then there are various Italian figures who are quite clearly Catholic atheists!"
 
phyllis - don't be silly. i have both "the chosen" and "the promise" and they are extremely well-written, well-researched books, although a little dated nowadays.

bob - i couldn't agree more!

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Um, bb: how do you view Chaim Potok (I believe that's the man who wrote The Promise {I think that was the title of the book about two Jewish friends, one Chassidic and the other was Reform/secular}.)
Click to expand...

Phyllis,

That isn't quite true. In Chaim Potok's novels The Chosen and The Promise, one of the main characters (Danny) was Hasidic ultra-Orthodox, and his friend was what we'd call Modern Orthodox, or maybe a little bit to the right of that, but not as fanatically conservative as Danny's circle. Reform Jews weren't even on their radar screen and were called "Jewish goyim."

Orthodox Jews usually excommunicate only the members of rival Orthodox factions, occasionally on the basis of Ashkenazi vs. Sephardi but often on some other basis. They don't bother much with Reform and Conservative Jews, since they figure we're all apostates anyway. The Lubavichers are an exception, but all their outreach efforts are geared towards bringing nonobservant or minimally observant Jews into THEIR camp. They have no interest in meeting us halfway, or engaging in dialogue on any kind of equal basis.

--Linda
 
and our newest category, to which ed's mother belongs, the "asajew", who only pops up when they have something to criticise israel about, or when they wish to display their anti-racist credentials, or their ethnic minority credentials, the rest of the time they are as assimilated as you can get. the milibands grew up in the left-wing activist community, not the jewish community, although ed's elder brother david lives in a plausibly jewish area - i saw him and his family in the park recently.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
the milibands grew up in the left-wing activist community
Click to expand...

...following in the footsteps of Karl Marx?

In my ignorance I did think "Jewish atheism" was an oxymoron...but it's a cultural thing, rather than religious then?

s.
 
I'd say they're certainly religious sometimes, but only when applying that word according to its extended meaning.

BB said:
i also think they sound very similar to the reconstructionists (they take jewish "ethnic culture" as their touchpoint) would have something to say about it, only they're really not doing terribly well as a movement and have never had much success outside america.
Click to expand...

I don't think Kaplan would have seen them as very Reconstructionist nor would the new Reconstructionists today. Kaplan was too concerned with a redefined naturalistic God and in practice was closer to the right of the Conservative movement. Remember that in his earlier days he helped to found Young Israel. Most of his move to the left was theological and philosophical, not practical. The new crop of Reconstructionists are often more interested in jettisoning the profoundly Kaplanian while maintaining his rejection of supernaturalism, now trite slogans like "tradition gets a vote but not a veto" (which incidentally the Reformists have now picked up, albeit with a very different connotation) and "Judaism is an evolving religious civilization" and reconciling the above with the mysticism that was introduced to their movement while R. Art Green was the head of the Reconstructionist seminary.

The humanists on the other hand are culturally Jewish atheists who desire a way to come together (much like secular humanists) in a way that honors their own cultural heritage. Their services don't mention God. They're constructed afaik out of bits of poetry and the like. They don't use the traditional liturgy at all. For a bar mitzvah a young person does some sort of research project, generally related to Judaism, and speaks about it in front of the congregation.
 
17th Angel said:
I think you can be Jewish and at the same time an Atheist... Judaism in that aspect is a little different being the chosen an all..... You can't however be a Jewish convert and be atheist lol ;)
Click to expand...
Amica beat me in starting this thread, but you have given me an opening. I have a friend who is atheistic Jew. She is so atheistic that she doesn't understand the concept of religion at all.

However her (late) husband, in order to marry her, had to convert to Judaism. They had a very happy marriage, but she has been widowed for some time now. I will have to ask her directly but I find it impossible to believe that she would have been able to sustain a happy marriage with a person who was not atheist.

She accepts me and my religious beliefs, but then of course I am not married to her.
 
intrepidlover said:
Amica beat me in starting this thread, but you have given me an opening. I have a friend who is atheistic Jew. She is so atheistic that she doesn't understand the concept of religion at all.
Click to expand...
Or you don't. Does the Taoist not understand the concept of religion at all? What about the pantheist/panentheist? You may reject religious naturalism, but to simply declare it an oxymoron seems more facile than fruitful.

One of my favorite definitions of religion comes from Yi-Fu Tuan who wrote: All human beings are religious if religion is broadly defined as the impulse for coherence and meaning.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top