BTW again...I had originally thought that this forum for people that didn't believe in man made religion.
The trouble is, I don't know what you mean by "man-made religion." It seems to mean every religion I know, particularly the Abrahamic faiths. Because this is an "interfaith" message board, I can't see how you could possibly not have 90 per cent of people here believing in "man-made religion." Based on my first impressions of you, we are all adherents of man-made religion.
Personally, I am not so fussed about having or not having a man-made religion. I can't understand why it is really
that important. Somewhere in our journey of discovering God, we decided that our own opinions were worthless and that the only things that were of value came from God.
I disagree with such a sentiment. I believe that humanity should be able to take some credit and pride in participating in this reconciliation process. I don't believe we should attribute all the good things in this world only to God. Yes, God made it possible, but He also gave us the opportunity to make it happen. A lot of people have not been able to shake this "belief" out of their heads, even when they disconnect themselves from the Abrahamic faiths and declare that they are an abomination.
Not only did God give us each a mind to think, but He also gave us the opportunity to live our own lives. We are not created just to be mindless drones, but also to exist and to enjoy that existence. What is more enjoyable than the journey we take in reconnecting with our Creator?
The idea that humanity has no merit, that every good thing, every step we take in getting back to our Creator must involve some intervention from God is degrading. I believe we have enough autonomy and independence to find our way back and not have to be guided every step of the way. Having said that, I find the idea that "man-made religion" is worthless and abominable to also be degrading.
Every intervention from God was just a gentle nudge to get us back in the right direction. There should not be any need for a "perfect" or "complete" revelation. To think or say that is to undervalue human intuition, autonomy and independence.
I suppose my question only got one answer because I practically insulted 90% of the human population. I'll apologize for any blatantly rude comments I made.
Disparaging comments don't always make the best introduction, but they can often get people talking. But .... I think the initial silence you got may have offended you as well.
Silence is one of the most annoying things in any discussion because you don't know what the other person is thinking. Are they trying to snub you? Is this their idea of an insult, to just ignore you? I am ..... rather experienced in that department. I have been insulted many times by people who just didn't reply. I'm pretty angry about it. It's so rude.
I won't apologize for any comments I made about religion though because I don't expect an apology from anyone when they say something like "Jesus was real". That's a lame example but I'm sure you get my meaning.
Whether or not Jesus was real is actually
less important than "believing in him" and
doing what he said. If a person believes in him, he is more likely to do what Jesus said than if he simply believed he was real. Jesus may not be real anyway but the motivation for doing good in this world is more important than the reality of his existence.
Hey Snoopy. I usually consider any religion based on control, profit and lies to be man-made. I suppose "commercial religions" or "industrial religion" would be a better term. These are spiritual aberrations and include all Abrahamic religions.
Religion is a dynamic social, political and economic process. It is supposed to have a human and social aspect. The Abrahamic faiths do not command control, profit and lies. It is simply the way many people act in their attempts to be "good followers" of that tradition.
Because religion is a dynamic social, political and economic process, there is also a "power" aspect. There is a question of who has authority over whom, who gets to own and keep what, what people should do in particular situations. When these concepts are "twisted" to oppress, persecute, dominate over or otherwise to harm people, this is what creates the "control, profit and lies" phenomenon you describe.
I disagree that the Abrahamic faiths were designed for "control, profit and lies." I believe they were founded on "noble principles" but because people failed to understand social ethics, because they failed to understand their own "humanity" and how their attitudes and behaviour harmed and hurt others, they failed to see the "evil" in their behaviour and actions.
Democracy and secularism is based on "noble principles" but does that mean that people treat each other fairly? I admire democracy and secularism. I admire the system. A Constitution that protects people's rights and the principle of the separation of powers prevents any single person or group from getting "absolute control." Democracy and secularism was designed to be "decentralised" and decentralisation prevents domination and exploitation. Everybody gets their fair share.
This is, in theory, what is supposed to happen. For the most part, the system treats the people under its care according to its "ideals," but I cannot say the same about people outside the system. American military forces have done a lot of damage outside the U.S. in its attempts to "promote democracy." They have brought a lot of harm to fellow human beings.
I became disillusioned with mainstream Christianity because I realised how it "worked," but I didn't declare "Christianity" to be a "complete abomination." I still believe in the "noble principles" of Christianity. I just don't believe the "mainstream Christianity" follows it. I am, basically a separatist.
I am disillusioned with mainstream Christianity because mainstream Christians are not followers of Jesus but followers of other Christians. To be a follower of other Christians you have to believe that what other Christians say and do is what you should also do. In other words, you believe you have to conform -- to conform to what the majority of other Christians you know are saying and doing.
But when I read the Gospels, I discover that Jesus was not a conformist. We was not a "follower." He was a leader, a leader who led himself and spoke for himself. He lived for himself. He was no sheep, no slave, no conformist. He was a rebel and separatist.
Therefore, to be a true follower of Jesus, I have to be a rebel and separatist. That means that I should not say and do what other Christians do. If I did that, I would become a mindless drone, a slave, just another mere instrument and component of a machine ..... another insect in a colony/hive of insects.
I left the bee hive and ants' nest to become an individual. Like Seven of Nine in Star Trek Voyager, I do not choose to be small. I choose to be unique.
There are some religions that are natural in design. For example, sun, earth and spirit religions. Not all of these have stayed pure though. Long ago the ancients looked up at the Sun/Moon in awe and respect and started to worship them. This was the first true religion and there wasn't yet and stain on evil/humanity on it.
There have been a few religions out there that while partly man made are also somewhat inately part of us and doesn't have much of the "human stain" upon it.
I for one don't believe that humanity is "evil" and that every time humanity tries to contribute to religion he always "corrupts" it. I believe the reason why humanity "corrupts" religion is because some of its members have not learnt to "rise above" the evil in them. There is good in us, but we do not always heed the voices of light within us.
These shamans started thinking that they shouldn't have to work as much and should have the best hut in the village. This is where a benign and pure religion gets turned into a commercial religion. Then of course they started sacrificing perfectly usable virgins and such and turned to evil.
Some native American religions for example are pretty pure imo. If they killed a deer they would thank it's spirit and respect it. Some of their shamans also got the best teepee and such so they are not without their problems. They were savages of course and butchered each other but they respected the land and that is what I like about them.
The worship of the forces of nature is not a true man-made religion. It is the closest man-kind has come to worshipping the true God because by worshipping the stuff he/she made we are essentially worshipping him/her. Buddhism is another solid example of a natural religion but the human stain is on that one as well.
It happens to every religion. I think you've got a very pessimistic view of religion, that it's no good when it becomes "corrupted." Who fixes religion when it is broken? We do.
If you "know" that religion has been corrupted, then obviously you have already fixed it
in yourself. Therefore, it was never religion that was corrupt, but you. When you "fixed" your beliefs, you automatically reformed whatever religion you followed. The light is not external. It is in you. You may abhor the "man-made" aspect of your own reformation, but I believe this idea that any reform must come from above is exactly the problem. Furthermore, don't forget that
God created you. You are not man-made, and if you reform, your beliefs are not man-made. They were caused by God creating you. You are one of the divine sparks of God. We are all divine sparks, and when we reform our beliefs, it is as if the religion was never corrupted.
I see the collectivistic conformism of mainstream Christianity as flawed, where Christians follow other Christians and fail to see that Jesus was a separatist, that a true follower of Jesus is a rebel and separatist. However, because I also know that religion is about community, about bringing people together, I cannot deny that while their attitudes may be flawed, these "mainstream" Christians are still trying to live by the same "noble principles" I believe in. The desire for power and for belonging that drives them to "follow" and "copy" what the others do, to conform, please and impress fellow adherents of the same tradition is what leads to the "control, profit and lies" you describe.
I'm rambling now and you can probably pick some pretty big holes in my statements but hopefully you get my meaning and I've answered your question.
They are not holes. It's just a different perspective, one that makes sense to you and is compatible with your own personal, individual journey. You have the ability to rationalise your own journey through life, so you can fill up the holes as if they never existed. Same with me.
I can't guarantee that I will always agree with you, or that we will never have a conflict (because I am different to you). But so far so good.
