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Hello. I am dating a wonderful woman who is a Lutheran (ELCA) and our relationship is getting serious. She has two lovely children ages 6 and 8, and I have two girls ages 8 and 10. We are talking about doing a Brady Bunch thing. I am not a religious person. I have studied the Bible rigorously as well as the sacred texts of most major religions but find the magical thinking and ritualistic rigmarole of organized religion off putting and not conducive to a pursuit of intellectual honesty. This is in great part due to the poisoned programming of fundamentalist Christian theology that I was subjected to as a child. But I love this woman and would like to try to find a way to participate with her in her chosen spiritual path that doesn't require intellectual compartmentalization. So I have these questions that I'm hoping to get some help with. These are not rhetorical questions and my interest is genuine, but I want to say that, having studied the Bible extensively and having made the effort to be up on the current state of mainstream Christian theology, I am not asking for a recitation of theology or dogma. I have that information already.

1. What is the actual function of salvation and why do we need it?

2. What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Believe what?

3. How does Jesus death actually function as a mechanism for salvation?

4. What empirical evidence suggests an afterlife?

5. What is God of Itself? What is It's function?

6. Stripped of cultural context and identity politics, what is left of religion to recommend one variation over another?

Thank you in advance. I am most vitally interested in items 1 through 3.

Chris
 
This will be interesting....for CCSF if everyone rather than discussing others beliefs or differences, it would be great just to answer his questions for his dissmination.

China, one thing that I have found is while I did have major issues when I was younger sitting in various churches....today I can sit and listen for points I agree with rather than having issues with points I disagree with.



1. What is the actual function of salvation and why do we need it?

In my belief we don't get 'saved' by others, we get 'saved' receive salvation by following the teachings of Jesus. We need it because we need love in this world, we need to reduce judgement, we need to look at our issues and not concern ourselves with others, we need to forgive first, we need to take care of our fellow man....take the log out....whatever you've done to the least....we are blessed in this plane of existence by putting on the mind of Christ.


2. What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Believe what?

Believe in the teachings, walk the walk along with our elder brother and wayshower, follow the path.

3. How does Jesus death actually function as a mechanism for salvation?

Jesus metaphorically brought around him the 12 powers, 12 gifts from G!d that needed quickening in his life to blaze a path for us and show us the way. John - Love, Peter - Faith, etc.... his teachings led upto one thing he hadn't overcome...Life as represented by Judas who assisted him in the final challenge. And there he hung....saying Forgive them for they know not what they do....and Daddy, this is what you saved me for... he taught us that everything, everything that happens in our life can be overcome, and is a blessing


4. What empirical evidence suggests an afterlife?

I've known a number of people who were impressed by Dr. Longs book. I've got more of a Buddhist attitude regarding this....we can't prove it one way or another and there is plenty to work on in this plane of existence without troubling ourselves over the unprovable.

Near Death Experience Books & Reviews


5. What is God of Itself? What is It's function?

G!d is. G!d is Love. Not G!d loves, G!d is love. G!d is principle, not an it or an entity but the theory of everything scientists are looking for. G!d is forgiveness, not G!d forgives.


6. Stripped of cultural context and identity politics, what is left of religion to recommend one variation over another?

Personal choice...many paths...many mountains.


Good luck and G!d Bless my brother!!
 
Thank you Wil! I've always valued your friendship and kind manner.

You know, I think we have a similar take on the import of the Gospel message. In my reading it has everything to do with doing unto others. I think I realized that at a very early age. But I've had a hard time loving myself and you can't give what you haven't got. It's been so hard to get past the dogmatic programming and the difficult search for identity outside it. I felt as though I had to strip myself bare to get to a state of honesty that I could build up from. I've honestly been afraid to embrace the message because I know what it will require of me.

Anyway, thanks for your valuable input brother.

Chris
 
We are talking about doing a Brady Bunch thing.

I take it that's a good thing? :confused::)

I don’t usually poke around in here, much less post. But I always like to read your honest and…chewy… posts CCS.

First up, congratulations that you’re dating a wonderful woman!

Clearly, I won’t be offering you any answers to your questions, but I am curious to ask (perhaps I’m just missing the point)…

You have “studied the Bible extensively” and are not asking for a “recitation of theology or dogma”, which you have already. Even if you had not said that my question would be the same:

If you would like “to try to find a way to participate with her in her chosen spiritual path” should not your questions and subsequent discussion be directed to the person herself?

s.
 
if everyone rather than discussing others beliefs or differences, it would be great just to answer his questions for his dissmination.

Are you saying conversion is not an option? :mad:

s.
 
really sorry to hear about your bad news, so this may not be the best time to carry on this discussion. But these are my views at the moment

1. What is the actual function of salvation and why do we need it?

because we cant get close to God on our efforts


2. What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Believe what?

well for me, Jesus as the Son of God, who died for the sins of the world and was raised from the dead.

3. How does Jesus death actually function as a mechanism for salvation?

Jesus was a sacrificial lamb.

4. What empirical evidence suggests an afterlife?

dont know what emperical means

5. What is God of Itself? What is It's function?

good question but one that your intellect will never find an answer to

6. Stripped of cultural context and identity politics, what is left of religion to recommend one variation over another?


religion is poison, real Christianity is not a mere religion it is a relationship with God, made possible by Jesus Christ.
 
Hi Chris —

Before anything else, can I ask, are her kids girls, too? I only ask because that would mean you'll end up with four girls going through their teenage years together ... as a father of three girls, and having just emerged, I would suggest you start making survival plans now ... support networks, a bunker, a padded room, anger management training, and most useful of all, selective deafness! It's could be quite a ride!
(And of course, we wouldn't have it any other way!)

Well, re the questions, you know where I'd traditionally be coming from, but let me offer a view that's floating around, but I haven't sorted yet.

1. What is the actual function of salvation and why do we need it?
I think there's two aspects to this:
The first is that most cultures start from the idea of a 'golden age', when everything was 'right', and then something happened ... the Genesis idea tackles the question, if God is good, why is there suffering? And arrives at the notion that if God is good, God cannot be the cause of suffering ... so either man is the author of his own ill, or man doesn't quite understand what's going on ... Scripture actually discusses both answers.

Contemporary cosmology suggests a linear and progressive development (I would say cyclic, but that's getting too involved) ... but maybe the 'golden age' of the past is actually an image of a fulfilled future, it's our 'end' rather than our 'beginning' it's not where we came from, it's where we're headed?

The second is what does salvation comprise? In my tradition, its participation in the life of the Divine, it's Divine Union, it's becoming one with the all ... which accords with the idea of perfection, paradise, etc.

Salvation, in the second sense, suggests a path that leads towards the goal, rather than a path that goes off at a tangent to entropy and extinction.

Sin, in this context, is not a case of being 'naughty', but rather the pursuit of an ontologically non-existent good ... we invest ourselves in chimeraic 'goods' that cannot sustain our being. There is a saying 'you become what you think about' ... but if what we centre our lives on has no actual being, then our being is being poured out onto the sand, as it were.

2. What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Believe what?
A belief that we can be one with the One.

3. How does Jesus death actually function as a mechanism for salvation?
The premise is that Jesus, the Logos of God, joins His divine nature to our contingent human nature, and by so doing (the High coming to the low) opens a bridge or 'way' from low to High, by invitation, which we call sonship, or divinisation.

It's a given that a nature cannot transcend itself, it cannot be more than what it is (there is potential within being, but that is within the nature, transcendence speaks of beyond the nature).

Thus we speak of being 'in' Him, as His true nature, as Logos, encompasses all natures (not just human), which the Greeks call logoi

The Cross has multiple meanings, but one can be that His death and resurrection means we will not have to give up all that we are, to be as He is.

4. What empirical evidence suggests an afterlife?
None. The wider argument is, when and who decided that 'truth' is only that which can be determined by empiricism.

5. What is God of Itself? What is It's function?
It is the only thing that exists without Itself having a cause of its existence. God doesn't have a function, God just is.

6. Stripped of cultural context and identity politics, what is left of religion to recommend one variation over another?
Its metaphysical principles. Daoism, for example, holds that the Divine cannot be known, Christianity holds the same, but also that the Divine can make Itself known, and thus can be spoken of.

God bless,

Thomas
 
My Prayers and condolences on your loss. Big hugz my brother.

@ snoopy, I was just hoping for a period of time at least the thread could go as directed by the OP.
 
Thanks for the replies. I have to fly out to Nashville this morning to make funeral arrangements and so forth.

Kelly has a boy and a girl, Thomas. I'm going to have three girls. Yikes!

Chris
 
Hi Chris. Thank you for sharing. I'm very sorry about you Dad.

1. What is the actual function of salvation and why do we need it?
*** Salvation is preserving everything good about ourselves and passing it on to the next generation with improvement. The word means preserve, and salvation is a personal process for each person as well as for the whole body of people. It incorporates the idea that we have faults both known and unknown, an awareness that we ought to seek to improve. It also incorporates the idea that we do not yet know what perfection is like, so our goal is to learn about it. Each generation should get closer to perfection. For children, salvation is just a bunch of jargon.

2. What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Believe what?
*** There is not a literal translation. It means committing to put love into action as much as possible. You can only do as much as possible, because you actually have to balance your ideals with your practical limitations. Long story short if you do that, then you are believing in Jesus. You may recall Jesus saying something about people that say to him 'Lord, Lord'. Belief actually is not the same as believing in Jesus, which can be accomplished by someone who is unaware. It is assumed that you need other people to help you, so you belong in a group of like-minded individuals. Choose wisely and cheerfully your circle or congregation. For children, believing in Jesus is just a bunch of jargon.

3. How does Jesus death actually function as a mechanism for salvation?
*** Long story short, to children his death atones for their 'sins'. For the rest of us it actually symbolizes that love triumphs eventually. We see loving people suffer sometimes, and sometimes the good are trampled under. That is discouraging. Think of it as night and day. When good people suffer, that is the night, but in the morning the sun always comes back up. We have to keep warm until then and not become cold. Jesus resurrection symbolizes that. Believe that the sun will come up, love people and expect love. Bravely entrust the future to it as you are able. Love your neighbor even when it doesn't seem to make practical sense.

4. What empirical evidence suggests an afterlife?
*** For little children, there is no such thing as death. For the rest of us we are the life after death. We were dead, but now we are alive in Christ. That life is eternal, the greater body continuing on even after we die. Little kids cannot grasp death, but grownups can accept it. What is most important is that life goes on and that it improves.

5. What is God of Itself? What is It's function?
*** God does not have a function. God is something we discover when we are attempting to do godly things, but God cannot be described perfectly. I am not suggesting God doesn't exist but the opposite. An induced current is analogous to the way you learn about God. You do not sense that the magnetic field exists until you move a conductor through it, producing current. To encounter God one must actively seek to improve themselves and their community, otherwise God is practically undetectable. God is hard for anyone to understand and is perceived different ways by different individuals. It has taken many prophets a very long time to pass to us even limited knowledge of God. Over time the Prophets tried to chart out a rough map of God and how God works, (God's function as you called it). 1 Peter 1:10-12 The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation...It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you... That research is still ongoing.

6. Stripped of cultural context and identity politics, what is left of religion to recommend one variation over another?
**** Religions may disappear and reappear. God is eternal, something we long for but cannot understand...yet. I Corinthians 13:8 ...as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. You are the one who must recommend one religion over another, and you must decide in love the best thing.

China, Thanks for so many entertaining posts over the last few years. Hope everything is honk-dory for you in the near future.
 
I am not a religious person. I have studied the Bible rigorously as well as the sacred texts of most major religions but find the magical thinking and ritualistic rigmarole of organized religion off putting and not conducive to a pursuit of intellectual honesty. This is in great part due to the poisoned programming of fundamentalist Christian theology that I was subjected to as a child.

China Cat, I had quite a bit to say, so I have divided my post into several parts.

1. What is the actual function of salvation and why do we need it?

Contrary to what contemporary and mainstream Christianity says, I think "salvation" has to be seen from its original historical, social, political and economic context. Shortly after the Babylonian Exile, the people of Israel and Judah came under domination by a number of foreign powers, most notably the Persian Empire, Alexander the Great (Macedonian Empire), the Seleucids and finally the Romans.

Cultural infiltration by foreign powers presented a problem for Jews whose most important commitment was fulfilling their covenant with the Jewish God Hashem. Some articles I have encountered from my searches on Google as a casual netizen say that this was how ideas about a messiah and afterlife developed in Judaism. The messiah was supposed to be a leader "involved" in the process of "saving" the people of Israel and Judah. When I say "involved," I say that with the knowledge that in Judaism, only God is supposed to be "saviour."

"Salvation" has to be seen in the social, political, cultural, economic and historical context of the time and whatever "salvation" actually meant has to do with some form of persecution, oppression or hardship suffered by the people of that time.

Having said that, I think it should be fairly obvious that we do not need the kind of "salvation" that the people of that time needed. I think mainstream Christianity has distorted and confused the original meaning of salvation by saying not only that it was about a guy dying for our sins, but that it was the only thing "salvation" meant. Mainstream Christianity has mislead the majority of Christians with the assumption that when Jesus died for people's sins, that it was universal and applied to everyone.

I disagree with this concept because the original social, political and economic context no longer exists. The "dying for people's sins" concept only applies when an individual or group of people find themselves in similar circumstances to Jesus' original followers. It cannot be "shoehorned" or forced on anyone because this turns Christianity into something pompous and patronising.
 
2. What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Believe what?

Again, it's all about the historical context. Why was Jesus so important? What did people want from Jesus? What did they think they could get from Jesus? Literally speaking, in John 14:6, Jesus says he is "the way" to the Father. Obviously what Jesus promised was that there was a "path" or "journey" that one could take to get to God.

It should be noted that there is a similar idea in Judaism and Islam as well. The word "halakha" in Judaism means "way of walking" and "shariah" in Islam means "way" or "path." The difference between the way mainstream Christianity conceptualises "the way" and how Judaism and Islam conceptualise "the way" is that Judaism and Islam have a system of Law associated with "the way" whereas mainstream Christianity does not.

When I say "mainstream Christianity" I mean that there is nothing to suggest that "the way" as meant by Jesus cannot be grounded in a system of Law. It may actually be possible to follow "the way" as taught by Jesus while still following Jewish or Islamic Law.

When most people think of "the way" as Jesus said in John 14:6, they think it means you have to convert to Christianity. You have to "become" a Christian, say that Jesus is your saviour, that he died for your sins and that you will not be "saved" if you don't accept him as saviour. You have to say and do everything a "Christian" is expected to do in today's world.

But if I was to assume that the Gospel of John was written in "relatively chronological order," then Jesus' assertion that he was "the way" comes before his arrest, crucifixion, death and resurrection, which means that "the way" as meant by Jesus was whatever he was teaching, not in the idea that he was "saviour" and "died for people's sins." People would have interpreted his words that way, not the way Christians do today.

"The way" as meant by Jesus was therefore his teachings. But what was the purpose of his teachings? This is where we get back to what I said about Jewish and Islamic Law.

Jesus' teachings were an approach to Judaism. In Jesus' day there were two dominant factions in Judaism. Beit Hillel, the House of Hillel followed Hillel the Elder. Beit Shammai, the House of Shammai followed Shammai. Shammai could be likened to the fundamentalist Christians of today: judgmental, legalistic and supremacist. He taught a legalistic approach to Judaism. Hillel taught a liberal and humanity-oriented approach to Judaism. He understood and recognised the importance of our humanity, to "tread lightly on people." Jesus' teachings were similar to Hillel's.

1. Being Judgmental
Hillel: "judge not your fellow man until you yourself come into his place" (M. Abot 2:5)
Jesus: "do not judge, and you will not be judged" (Luke 6:37)

2. Humility and Greatness
Hillel: "My humility is my exaltation; my exaltation is my humility"
Jesus: "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luke 14:11)

3. Loving your Neighbour
Hillel: "What is hateful to you do not do to your neighbor; this is the whole Law; the rest is commentary!"
Jesus: "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 7:12)

There may be other examples, but I can't remember what they are. What is important to know is that Hillel came before Jesus. Hillel was an old man when Jesus was born and died when Jesus was just a child. This is a blow to any Christian belief that Jesus' teachings were original. I personally have no problem with this. It is more important to understand the significance of Jesus' "mission."

The Law was about peace, harmony and justice and following the Law was the way the Jewish people fulfilled their covenant. But there were differences in opinion on how to "follow the Law." Shammai believed you had to adhere to "high standards" while Hillel wanted to be fair to people and understand their needs and weaknesses. Hillel believed that you had to value people's humanity. If humanity has always been important to the fulfillment of the Law, then what Shammai was doing was dehumanising the Law.

Hillel was the President of the Sanhedrin, the committee or panel that decided what people were to regard as "Law" around the time Jesus was born. When he died, Shammai took over as President, and you can just imagine how he "changed" Judaism. It would be like fundamentalist, charismatic and evangelical Christians today taking over the leadership of every church, including Catholic and Orthodox and imposing their legalism and fundamentalism on every Christian on the planet.

Shammai and his followers passed what was called the "13 ordinances" or "13 measures." I don't know what the content of those 13 measures was and couldn't find out from my Google searching, but I can guess that because everyone now had to follow the "heavy yoke" of Shammai's legalism, Judaism was drowned into a really legalistic culture and ideology.

With the "establishment" now "corrupted" by the legalism of Shammai, Jesus came to take people away from the judgmentalism and legalism that Shammai and his followers were creating. In Matthew 11:29-30 he says, "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Jesus was leader of a kind of separatist movement away from the established legalism of Shammai.

Until now, I have been establishing the historical context of "the way" spoken of by Jesus. I will now explain what I think it means to "believe in" Jesus. To believe in Jesus is to believe in his teachings. It is to believe that the humanity-oriented approach that Jesus took toward Judaism, which was similar to the one Hillel took, was "the way" that Jesus was talking about. It doesn't mean that we all have to follow a "Law System" like Jews and Muslims. The gist of Jesus' words and teachings is that whether you do or don't adhere to a Law System, your love of humanity is "the way" to God.
 
3. How does Jesus death actually function as a mechanism for salvation?

Ok ... following on from what I said before .....

The "salvation" mentioned in the Gospels was part of a political agenda to take the Jews away from the legalism of Shammai. Jesus did "save" people from and die for their sins, but not in the way described by mainstream Christianity today and the "salvation" was not "universal" as Christians believe today. The "sins" of the people were their inability to live up to the legalism of Shammai's approach to Judaism.

The original followers of Jesus, the Nazarenes, called Jesus their "saviour" because Jesus' death and resurrection was too compelling for them to ignore. Jesus died for the ethics of the Hillelite faction, the one that embraced our humanity. Even after Rabbinic Judaism embraced the Hillel's system of ethics, the Nazarenes continued to think of Jesus as "saviour" and "messiah," and disregarded the authority of the rabbis. Tragically, the Nazarenes were "excommunicated" from the synagogues and despite the Nazarenes and Rabbinic Judaism both following the "Hillelite ethics" as described previously, they were unable to reintegrate.

The Later Christians misunderstood the original meaning of the word "saviour," which makes the modern Christian interpretation a literal one.

I don't agree that Jesus' death actually serves as a "mechanism" for salvation. Jesus' death actually shows he is just like everyone else. It was his resurrection that showed that he was "special."

Because Jesus taught "the way" of Hillel, the resurrection established that the teachings of Hillel were "the way" to find God. Those who followed the "easy yoke" of Jesus and Hillel would not be judged according to the "heavy yoke" of Shammai and would therefore be "forgiven." According to Jesus and Hillel's own ethics, a human should not be judged so harshly for his flaws and failings, especially if he shows compassion for another human being. Our kindness to others makes our own flaws acceptable.

Jews don't have to convert to Christianity to follow "the way" as spoken of by Jesus. Shortly after the destruction of the Second Temple, the Shammaite faction lost its dominance. Those who formed Rabbinic Judaism, the replacement tradition after the destruction of the temple chose the Hillelite approach to Judaism. Jesus' teachings were already a part of Judaism.
 
4. What empirical evidence suggests an afterlife?

I have not examined any at this point and currently don't care.:eek:

5. What is God of Itself? What is It's function?

Off the top of my head, He is Creator and provider.

6. Stripped of cultural context and identity politics, what is left of religion to recommend one variation over another?

I would suggest a number of different (but not mutually exclusive) motivations:

1) individual choice
2) where your journey leads you
3) your loyalty to the community and people to which you are most attached
4) whatever reinforces your sense of individuality and humanity
5) whatever comes most naturally
6) whatever else pleases you

Sorry if this sounds like a "cavalier attitude" towards what religion you should follow, but it is my view that whatever choices you make in life, they must never compromise your individuality or humanity. Whatever choice you make, it must be compatible with your conscience and sense of self.
 
Hi. Again, thanks for the responses. I just got back in town having spent some time with my family in Tennessee.

It's interesting to go through another family death. I had more space for immediate introspection this time. As I was listening to the service for my Dad, with the pastor doing his best to provide comfort, I kept thinking of that passage, I think in Matthew, where a trick question concerning a widow with seven brothers is posed to Jesus. He says something to the effect that had his questioners understood the scriptures they would know that there is no marriage or giving in marriage in the life hereafter because those who have passed to that world will be "as the angels." That kind of negates all the feel good stuff about reuniting with loved ones in "heaven" doesn't it? I mean, if they are "as the angels" then they are incorporeal beings having little to do with their former human state. It would be like a rock becoming human, or a frog becoming a cow. Very cool, but in no way comforting in the sense of a continuing identity. That kind of reinforced to me the large separation between the actual theology of what the Bible says and the pedestrian version that is preached to the pew sitters.

Chris
 
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