Some Questions

Chris Summercat Bone China said:
That kind of reinforced to me the large separation between the actual theology of what the Bible says and the pedestrian version that is preached to the pew sitters.
Click to expand...
Theology is two messages in one written to two groups: children and adults. Children cannot handle adult messages, so our messages are hidden inside of theirs. A child's message prepares them for the grownup messages. You mentioned a separation between actual and pedestrian theologies, and I think the problem is that the kids in our generation haven't been enabled to grasp the adult messages in time to grow up. I think once we address that in an appropriate way things will improve. I remember you talking about how you've spent a lot of time mucking about trying to get the Bible, and I have had a similar experience. The only problem I have with that is that I wish I had started doing it at a younger age. I wouldn't want to throw away the changes in perspective, nor the thrill of discovery nor the lost feelings I've gone through. It is like a rebirth. Though I needed it sooner rather than later in life I still value it.
 
First, I want to thank everyone for their expressions of sympathy. It means a lot. Thank you for taking the time, no one ever really knows what to say and it's awkward, I know.

Secondly, I especially appreciate the cogent and lengthy responses from Salty and Dream. You both have opened my mind to new possibilities and provided me with new information. This has helped me tremendously and I'm sincerely grateful. It's been much harder than I ever thought it would be to get far enough away from my original fundamentalist programming to gain an objective perceptual vantage point. I've struggled with this for a long time. My friends who have been here at IO have had the opportunity to see me thrash and evolve painfully. I have always appreciated your input, and I hope that I have contributed something worthwhile in between my rants and often sorry behavior. I've tried to be honest if coarse. I hope that has some value.

For myself, I don't really find much value in the dress up games and ritualism of organized religion. In particular, and as regards Christianity which is my natural spiritual ethnicity, I don't really understand the ritualized fetishization of Jesus death. The passion plays and ritual consumption of the blood and body seem ridiculous, bizarre, and unnecessarily macabre. The intended effect seems to be frightening the crap out of people to insure their subservience. I don't understand why the mystical has to be presented in such a fearful way. Similarly, I can't see any positive value in emphasizing predispositional sin and unworthiness. How is that motivational? Motivational perhaps in fostering the group who will say "Lord, Lord..." (Salty), but contrary to everything I understand about creating and nurturing positive group dynamics.

On the other hand, I really like the message about unconditional love, the value of living a righteous life based on enlightened ethics rather than rote morality, service, and care and concern for neighbor expressed as The major theme in the Bible both OT and NT. I like that the major characters in the morality tales have glaring flaws. Abraham starts off as a con man, Moses is a prideful, murdering SOB, Noah is a drunk, David an adulterer who has a hot chick's husband killed so he can dork her, Peter can't control his temper, Paul is an accessory to murder. Even Jesus has a moment of weakness in the garden where he asks if it might be possible for him to avoid his destiny. These are characters I can relate to. So I do find value in the idea that one can improve him or herself through contact with, and pursuit of the higher ideal.

Beyond empathy and charity, I think that the world sorely needs individuals who are willing to stand up and live the righteous ideal. The whole world is crying out, not just for justice and mercy from government and institutional power structures, but for individuals to act and speak as if ideals matter. The whole world is crying out for an honest auto mechanic, for fastidious and trustworthy tradesmen and women, artists dedicated their pursuit, bankers and lawyers who put real customer service above greed, ministers, politicians, entertainers, celebrities, and academicians who will speak out against social and economic evil at the expense of entrenched, monied interests. What I like about Christianity, and by extension the other Abrahamic faiths, is the potential for concerted righteous action in the world, in this life. I think that potential is in large part unrealized due to the anachronistic theological, and ritualistic fixation with Christ's death and the neo-Levitical dogma which has carried over from medieval times, but I also see a modern stirring toward the ideals of love, neighborliness, and social, economic, political, and environmental stewardship which I find quite encouraging. There is a force multiplication effect available in the concerted action of communities of faith which greatly improves upon the the effect of individual action. I would like to find a way to participate in that and still preserve a sense of intellectual honesty.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Hello.
Click to expand...

Salam Chris, just wanted to tiptoe in and offer my condolences for the passing of your father.

China Cat Sunflower said:
I am dating a wonderful woman ...... We are talking about doing a Brady Bunch thing.
Click to expand...

and my heartfelt congratulations and excitement for your budding relationship (am a sucker for a love story) :D I really hope it works out for you all and you have a long and happy life together.

(damn I will be singing the brady bunch all night now lol).
 
Hi Sally! It's nice to see you around. I hope things are well with you.

I remember that you said you were setting up a dating site so you may be interested to know that Kelly and I met on Yahoo's Match.com. We actually e-mailed each other at the same time. What are the odds of that?!

Happy new year to you!

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Hello. I am dating a wonderful woman who is a Lutheran (ELCA) and our relationship is getting serious. She has two lovely children ages 6 and 8, and I have two girls ages 8 and 10. We are talking about doing a Brady Bunch thing. I am not a religious person. I have studied the Bible rigorously as well as the sacred texts of most major religions but find the magical thinking and ritualistic rigmarole of organized religion off putting and not conducive to a pursuit of intellectual honesty. This is in great part due to the poisoned programming of fundamentalist Christian theology that I was subjected to as a child. But I love this woman and would like to try to find a way to participate with her in her chosen spiritual path that doesn't require intellectual compartmentalization. So I have these questions that I'm hoping to get some help with. These are not rhetorical questions and my interest is genuine, but I want to say that, having studied the Bible extensively and having made the effort to be up on the current state of mainstream Christian theology, I am not asking for a recitation of theology or dogma. I have that information already.

1. What is the actual function of salvation and why do we need it?

2. What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Believe what?

3. How does Jesus death actually function as a mechanism for salvation?

4. What empirical evidence suggests an afterlife?

5. What is God of Itself? What is It's function?

6. Stripped of cultural context and identity politics, what is left of religion to recommend one variation over another?

Thank you in advance. I am most vitally interested in items 1 through 3.

Chris
Click to expand...
Do what my Father and Hero did... "Dear Lord. I Believe, please bless my disbelief."

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain...think about it. It ain't just about "you" anymore...:D

Your friend,

Q
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Hello. I am dating a wonderful woman who is a Lutheran (ELCA) and our relationship is getting serious. She has two lovely children ages 6 and 8, and I have two girls ages 8 and 10. We are talking about doing a Brady Bunch thing. I am not a religious person. I have studied the Bible rigorously as well as the sacred texts of most major religions but find the magical thinking and ritualistic rigmarole of organized religion off putting and not conducive to a pursuit of intellectual honesty. This is in great part due to the poisoned programming of fundamentalist Christian theology that I was subjected to as a child. But I love this woman and would like to try to find a way to participate with her in her chosen spiritual path that doesn't require intellectual compartmentalization. So I have these questions that I'm hoping to get some help with. These are not rhetorical questions and my interest is genuine, but I want to say that, having studied the Bible extensively and having made the effort to be up on the current state of mainstream Christian theology, I am not asking for a recitation of theology or dogma. I have that information already.

1. What is the actual function of salvation and why do we need it?

2. What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Believe what?

3. How does Jesus death actually function as a mechanism for salvation?

4. What empirical evidence suggests an afterlife?

5. What is God of Itself? What is It's function?

6. Stripped of cultural context and identity politics, what is left of religion to recommend one variation over another?

Thank you in advance. I am most vitally interested in items 1 through 3.

Chris
Click to expand...
1. What is the actual function of salvation, and why do we need it? (your question). When one starts to love one's self again (as you are beginning to), one's mortality begins to come into question.

That is where Jesus comes into play (for the end game). You accept Christ's gift, you pass go, get out of jail and collect 200 bucks. (e.g. you are not judged on your life before accepting Christ, for life or death). But you are judged on your merits after. See Jesus is a ticket to the superbowl...but after accepting the ticket, which seat you get to sit in is dependant upon how you help the others trying to get through the traffic jam outside the stadium...and most folk in the traffic jam want nothing to do with the superbowl...:eek:

But you have a slightly different situation. Your "number one fan" is a Christian, and your potential mate, and she has rug rats to add to your rug rats...who do what you do, not what you say...(they watch everything).

She is also your Help meet, not your lean to. She is watching you closely, weighing your decisions and actions, based on her upbringing and faith.

Turn around, God is right there to help you with this blessing/challenge. He is holding his breath waiting for your "about face"...

I know I'm rambling, but you are in a moment where your guard is down, so I'm talking as fast as I can...:eek::D

2. What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Believe what?.

You are a veteran, and you have been in positions where someone said "I've got your back". It wasn't so much the physical comfort, as it was the psychological comfort that no matter what, you were going "home". Someone would see to it.

The difference is that Jesus will keep you company "consciously" through the whole journey "Home". They say you can't beat the devil or renig on his due, but Jesus did...for all of us, so the devil lost big time. And yes there is a devil...

3. How does Jesus' death and "resurection" serve as a mechanism for salvation?

Dude, a guy claiming to love all of us died, doing just that. What pissed off the media is that he didn't stay dead (the goverment was pissed off as well, 'cause they couldn't find him to try and kill him again). When he came back, the word was out that Hades gates were now open and those dead in faith were alive and gone from their "earthenware".

2000 years later, his death and ressurection still stun us...and affect us.

think about it Dude...we are still looking for him!!! lol as if he was real...give me a break...no more real than you, or me...
 
Last edited:
China Cat

Dont forget that Christ didnt just die, he died and rose again :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top