Thought Experiment for the Theists

I meant you shouldn't use that word... it just sounds... fruity : P

I'll be sure to let my auntie know.

Hey, it's a fact of thermodynamics.

Perhaps some scripture quoting is appropriate here, amidst the physics:

By the time,
Verily man is in loss,
Except those who believe and do righteous good deeds...

This is my favorite chapter of the Quran, #103

Sorry, I'm not seeing the connection between the verse and physics.

So, is hell Exothermic or Endothermic?

I disagree...

It's a beginning.

Fair enough...where I see a dog chasing its own tail, you see a whirling dervish...nevermind the dervish doesn't seem to get very far down the path. ;)
 
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I feel like we've come a long way off the crux of the dialogue which is the referent or otherwise abstract nature of the word 'God'.

There seem to be some inherent assumptions, such as that we do have souls. How would one define a soul then? This is another term without a referent.

BBC's Horizon did a good documentary about two years ago called 'The Secret You'. In it they showed through various experiments how one's sense of self can be tricked and challenged. One experiment showed that through monitoring the brain, the decision a person is going to make can be predicted 6 seconds before that person is consciously aware of the decision. This amongst other experiments suggested that our consciousness is simply the summary experience of many extremely fast calculations in our brains. If others can predict our behavior accurately before we are consciously aware of it, does that mean that if souls exist they are not involved in decision making?

Returning to the word God, there are other factors to consider, even historically when considering ancient impressions of the existence whatever this word is to describe. For example, without present scientific knowledge, events such as coincidences can have a far greater profound effect on individuals, and still do to this day even when we know the event is actually mundane. Human beings are hard-wired to look for patterns, these interest us, and likely has evolved in us because this is how we learn processes and improvise other processes based upon experience.

If God is the agreed term then perhaps it would be useful for the dialogue if the experiential references of God are shared (if people feel comfortable to do so).

How do you know you are experiencing the presence of God? What sensory information do you receive? Where in your body do you know it? Do you see it? Do you think it? Do you hear it through your ears or even in your head?
 
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Good questions, all!

A few of which I have already addressed, although others may have additional insights to add.

I feel like we've come a long way off the crux of the dialogue which is the referent or otherwise abstract nature of the word 'God'.
Conversations do sometimes wander a bit, but redirecting back to the OP is a good thing too.

There seem to be some inherent assumptions, such as that we do have souls. How would one define a soul then? This is another term without a referent.

Sure; life force, breath of life, animating spirit...I'm sure there are more.

One experiment showed that through monitoring the brain, the decision a person is going to make can be predicted 6 seconds before that person is consciously aware of the decision. This amongst other experiments suggested that our consciousness is simply the summary experience of many extremely fast calculations in our brains. If others can predict our behavior accurately before we are consciously aware of it, does that mean that if souls exist they are not involved in decision making?

I believe I already answered that specifically in the affirmative.

I could qualify my statement, in that spirit does not *directly* impact on thought...but there are occasions where it does seem possible that spirit impacts *indirectly* on thought...in large part because typically we don't deliberately tune in to spirit as a habit. We tend to take spirit for granted, which is how we easily end up dismissing spirit in these "enlightened" times.

Returning to the word God, there are other factors to consider, even historically when considering ancient impressions of the existence whatever this word is to describe. For example, without present scientific knowledge, events such as coincidences can have a far greater profound effect on individuals, and still do to this day even when we know the event is actually mundane. Human beings are hard-wired to look for patterns, these interest us, and likely has evolved in us because this is how we learn processes and improvise other processes based upon experience.

I suppose there can always be the possibility to some extent that mundane somehow equals "outside of the Divine." There are various thoughts on the matter depending which school one ascribes to. From what I understand the monotheistic faiths generally lean towards a distinct line between the sacred and the profane...whereas in a more animist culture such as some Native American traditions the sacred encompasses everything including the profane. I am pretty sure there are a number of variations of thought in between the extremes.

I do think it is a rush to judgment to presume that coincidence in and of itself it not associated with or connected to spirit. Have you never had a thought cross your mind that was shared in the same moment with someone else in the room? I hear reports of similar frequently and have experienced this on many occasions myself. Let me be clear, I do not read minds. But there does seem to be moments when certain persons can have their spirit interact with or commune with or communicate with or somehow impact on another spirit. So coincidence *in some cases* may in truth be such a moment of passing direct spiritual connection between persons.

As for physical coincidences, that is of course more open to interpretation, and returns to how much influence one ascribes to the Divine as a whole, whether G-d is imminent or transcendent.

If God is the agreed term then perhaps it would be useful for the dialogue if the experiential references of God are shared (if people feel comfortable to do so).

You do realize such "evidence" is only circumstantial at best?

I have already provided mine in a cursory manner, and forgive me but I really have no desire to take this conversation to a more intimate level.

How do you know you are experiencing the presence of God? What sensory information do you receive? Where in your body do you know it? Do you see it? Do you think it? Do you hear it through your ears or even in your head?

Again I have already provided some answers. Others may have more to present to you, and I would certainly encourage it.

The attachment is at the solar plexus. Can it be felt elsewhere? Certainly, your spirit permeates your entire being, so that *can* (as in possible but not always likely) impact or influence such things as your thoughts, perhaps even to the point of hearing a still small voice in your mind. Frankly I have only experienced anything like that only once in my life, and looking back I cannot be certain it wasn't me "overhearing" the thought in my friend's head who was in the room at the time.

In some sense our body/mind interface seems to me like an old fashioned landline telephone appliance...not only do we receive, we also send. We've largely forgotten how to tune in, but the signal is there.

Did you ever hear of Thomas Edison's experiments with a device for communicating with the dead?
 
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How do you know you are experiencing the presence of God? What sensory information do you receive? Where in your body do you know it? Do you see it? Do you think it? Do you hear it through your ears or even in your head?

First, humans are creature of belief. You need to believe anyway when reasoned in an absolute sense. God is make a certain group of humans believe in Him. End of story.

Moreover, you assume wrong. It is not merely about sensory information, it is about how information is carried in a futuric manner.

To make sure (can't be 100% though) that you are in the reality instead of a dream, you can clap your face/cheek to feel the pain. It is because the predicted pain on your face comes to pass that you know the "truth" that you are in reality instead of a dream.

"Future" has an effect in confirming truth. Similar, science works in a similar manner referred to as the predictability of science. Say, you can predict that water resolves into hydrogen and oxygen. As long as your lab setup is correct, your such a prediction is always correct. And through such a correct prediction that you may find out a "truth" behind (which is a chemical formula).

God chooses to communicate with His prophet in a similar way. That's why you read that prophecies and miracles always go along with the prophets. Both prophecies and miracles are somehow brain independent. You can't make a miracle or prophecy come to pass out of your imagination.

To simply put, He allows you to prophecy (message related), He then make the prophecy comes truth, you thus know 1) He exists, 2) you are holding His message.

God can thus be "known" this way (to His prophets). As for others, it takes faith (more faith then when the confirming future is applied).
 
Quick thought experiment, I welcome ideas from all theists of all religions!

You meet a person who is and always has been deaf and illiterate. You must convey God to them using no words at all. How do you do it?

By my actions, of course.

Being the unprofitable servant of God that I am, I would most probably achieve nothing; but if even one person were to live the Life in Christ perfectly, he would convert the whole world without ever once opening his mouth.

Regards,
vizenos
 
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