Women Rabbi's?

I'm now talking about female equality in general rather than specificity religious. I fully agree with bananabrain at the same time I see the opposite point. We need to fallow bananabrains reasoning and realize the what the public positions actually are. But all limitations on any person derived from their sex need to be questioned.
I think there are many battles to face, from many different perspectives. And many need to be discussed openly even when they oppose each other.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
We need to fallow bananabrains reasoning and realize the what the public positions actually are.
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i'd love to help, but i can't quite see what you mean by this. whose public positions and on what? if you could be more precise, perhaps?

But all limitations on any person derived from their sex need to be questioned.
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"questioned" i have no problem with. "removed" is a different matter. certainly i would agree that if a capability is based on someone's intellectual or emotional capacities, then there are no grounds to restrict it on the basis of gender. what i think is often lacking is the educational platform - to my knowledge there are not a great deal of places where the higher learning necessary for expertise in jewish law is available to women; this could be addressed and, once we start producing those experts, there will be a case for opening up the opportunities. i do feel bound to say, however, that i think there is somewhat of an oversupply of *male* capacity in this area - we already have far more rabbis of far more varying capabilities than we know what to do with. better, i feel, to educate everyone; the rot sets in early, when schoolgirls are steered away from "serious" (i.e. talmudic) study into "softer" areas like "nakh" (primary bible texts). i feel it is only fair to point out that there is a lot of quite hidebound and sexist objection to this on the grounds of tradition, but if we start remedying it at the level of school and seminary education then change is sure to follow.

this should not be taken to mean, of course, that i support the total removal of all considerations of difference between men and women. religious judaism allocates many different areas to either gender and we should not make the mistake of considering that only the "serious text" areas are important; that is a far more haredi perspective than i would espouse. take arts and culture, or philosophy, or business ethics for example - why is it not possible that women should provide community leadership from there? if they want to be in halakhah, i don't see a reason to prevent it, but equally i'd like to see men taking areas that are not "serious text" more seriously. that would take the emphasis away from who should be a "rabbi", or who does what in shul. i'd like to see female teachers and leaders able to lead women, rather than male teachers and leaders doing it all.

the only thing i would say as a note of caution is this: serious credibility in the areas of "serious text" requires serious engagement. my friends and contemporaries who are orthodox rabbis have done a *feck* of a lot of halakhic study - not to say that my friends and contemporaries who are reform rabbis haven't done a feck of a lot of challenging study of other stuff, but in the orthodox world it is difficult to be credible without the ability to understand kashrut, shabbat observance, marriage and so on in an enormous amount of detail. it's not for everyone and i can see why one might have difficulty combining it with, say, motherhood. BUT if women can overcome this to some extent in the workplace, then they can do it in religious studies as well if they want it enough and can find the right teachers. just don't expect mixed orthodox prayer any time soon.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
i'd love to help, but i can't quite see what you mean by this. whose public positions and on what? if you could be more precise, perhaps?
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I'm simply saying that each man and woman needs to look at the position in question and realize what it's function is. I'm actually saying very little here, just that we need to think before we act.

And I'm holding to what I said before, we need to question the limitations.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
I'm simply saying that each man and woman needs to look at the position in question and realize what it's function isI'm actually saying very little here, just that we need to think before we act.
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i thought that's what i was saying!

And I'm holding to what I said before, we need to question the limitations.
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which i think i've agreed with too - but how exactly would you question them?

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
I'm not questioning anything you say. I agreed with your first post, then I said we (all) have to question what limits bla bla bla and you agreed. So I guess we agree fully with each other so far.

You're bright guy, and I almost always agree with you and never meant to argumentative.
 
Salam Tamer and BB

Very interesting to hear your views, thank you both.

Your reference to the Asian community in the UK is interesting BB, as that is what I was thinking of when I asked about the "watering down". We see many Muslims born here with much more open views on matters of hijab, divorce, dating, equality, etc.

Some of course are good steps, like the issue of equality but others are not and are moving away from our religious teachings in order to fit with societal norms here ... so my question was really whether this is also happeing in Jewish communities?
 
i suppose it's basically down to different models of integration. the first generation "off the boat" either sticks like glue to the norms of "the old country" (e.g. london gujaratis, sikhs and hasidim) and the next generation starts to gradually adapt to the norms of the new. alternatively, the first generation ditches its old identity at the docks (e.g. much of the new york immigration of jews, poles and irish in the late C19th early C20th) and later generations then undergo an ethnic or religious revival, fearing assimilation. to my mind it depends what value system type they brought with them. it's not as straightforward as i made it sound i don't think.

Some of course are good steps, like the issue of equality but others are not and are moving away from our religious teachings in order to fit with societal norms here ...
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you're begging the question here - it is of course possible that "good" steps may under certain circumstances involve "moving away from our religious teachings", or at least the norms of majority opinion towards previously minority opinion, or even towards -*gasp*- liberalisation of the majority opinion!!!

in many ways this happens all the time. of course, as you and i both know, if the provision of "dina demalkhuta dina" (the law of the land is binding) holds true for both judaism and islam, then if the law of the land gets more liberal, religious law will have to follow to a certain extent - despite everything the fundies, revivalists and other beardbangers can do to prevent it.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Salaam/Shalom. The Reform, Reconstructionist, and Conservative streams of Judaism all ordain women. They represent the majority of Jews by far.
 
Jayhawker Soule said:
In the United States without question. Do you have any basis for think that Orthodoxy is a majority worldwide?
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i don't think that's what i actually said. i don't dispute the situation in the states, but a quick look here:

World Jewish Population | Latest Statistics

should give a more nuanced view. for example, reform and conservative are at most 20% in the uk and negligible in israel - 41% of jews lived in israel in 2007. i think you'll find something like 46% of jews live in north america and the growth rate of the ultra-orthodox worldwide in particular is enormous. it really depends what question we're trying to answer, but a straightforward assertion simply won't do.

once we start factoring in the birth rates, marriage and assimilation rates, it becomes pretty apparent that the disappearance of jews into the secular world is being replenished by the spike in haredi birthrates; that translates, incidentally, into a shift of gravity towards the religious right and a polarisation of religious discourse as "mainstream" orthodoxy is swamped by the production line of the hasidic and yeshiva worlds. i for one find that a challenging and worrying thought - and i'm *on* the religious right by the definitions of most people in reform and conservative - although on the religious left by the definitions of most people in orthodoxy!

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
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