Misconceptions about Islam

Muslimwoman

Muslimwoman

Coexistence insha'Allah
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For some time I have been thinking of starting a thread to discuss misconceptions about Islam but thus far have refrained from doing so because of the inevitable personal attacks I will receive. However, when Nick the Pilot suggested such a thread today I decided it was time to bite the bullet and learn to ignore hate mongers.

Before we begin we need to agree on a couple of things ....

A Muslim who drinks alcohol, smokes drugs, sleeps around and doesn't pray is still a Muslim (we can't say what is in his/her heart and we don't know if they will change their ways tomorrow, we can only encourage them to do so). However we cannot look at that Muslim and say "that is Islam".

A Muslim who does nothing haram (forbidden), prays regularly, pays zakat, dresses and bahaves correctly is a Muslim but again we cannot look at them and say "that is Islam" because we don't know what is in their heart or what cultural traditions they bring to the table.

A Muslim who straps a bomb to himself/herself and murders people is still a Muslim, no matter how misguided but again we can't look at that person and say "that is Islam".

We are all subject to the teachings of our parents, teachers, peers and culture. Islam has been debated by scholars for centuries and if it was as clear cut as looking at a particular group of Muslims and saying "that is Islam" the debate would have ended centuries ago.

The only thing we can point at and say with certainty "that is Islam" is the Quran ... but of course Muslims all interpret the Quran according to what they have been taught.

The moment the Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) died "that is Islam" simply became human interpretation of the Quran and the Prophets teachings. Some issues have been agreed upon by Muslims and others have not but all of it is interpretation.

The other issue is more of a personal statement than an agreement ... I am happy to discuss any topic, I am happy to hear your opinions and to an extent I will put up with a certain level of personal attack. However please bear in mind I do not come onto the Christian board and say "you're idol worshippers and going to hell", so religious attacks will be ignored, as will personal abuse.

Last but most importantly ... I am not a religious scholar, I am not an historian and I am not speaking for Allah (swt) or Islam as a whole. This thread will be my opinions and sharing information I look up on issues you post, as a Muslim.

...

So let us begin. Rather than me posting issues, why don't we start by you posting issues you feel show Islam in a bad light and I will attempt to respond or look up information on the subject.

While you do that I will write some issues out which I am aware of often misunderstood.
 
MW,

I am glad you have the willingness to start up such a discussion. Hopefully, we will all benefit from this discussion.

Well, since you've asked, I can think of a couple of things. First I would like to ask: What does the Quran say about killing people who disagree with Islam? We hear talk of Islamic people saying, "Kill the infidels." What does the Quran actually say?
 
Hi Nick

Excellent question. How can I call Islam a religion of peace when the Quran says ...

“But when the sacred months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." (9:5)

This verse (often called the sword verse), and many like it, are used by both anti-Muslims to show the violent nature of Islam and also by some Muslims, who claim these verses abrogate all the peaceful verses, in order to feel superior and wage war or terrorism.

I am using this verse because I believe it is the most commonly quoted "violence" verse from the Quran.

As I said before, I am no scholar so I thought I would show you how I would go about understanding this verse. As I am limited to the internet and I trust nothing on the web please give me a couple of days to check out any links or commentary before I post it.
 
MW,

It is sad to see such verses. And you say there are other similar verses. How sad.

Next question: What does the Quran say about Muslims who wish to quit being Muslims? (I think it is called being an apostate?)
 
there is more to islam than the quran, there is also the ways of the prophet the sunnah i think they call it, which are recorded in many volumes they call them the hadeeths I think.
 
Hi Nick

Just popped in to say I will get back to your questions in a few days ... hopefully with a full answer to your first question.

I have been invited to an interveiw day for a job I have been chasing for months and have to prepare a presentation ... so it must take priority at the moment.

I won't forget and will get back to this as soon as I have some time to give you more than passing comments.
 
Nick the Pilot said:
MW,

I am glad you have the willingness to start up such a discussion. Hopefully, we will all benefit from this discussion.

Well, since you've asked, I can think of a couple of things. First I would like to ask: What does the Quran say about killing people who disagree with Islam? We hear talk of Islamic people saying, "Kill the infidels." What does the Quran actually say?
Click to expand...
Kill the infidels and 72 virgins is what folks like to repeat adnauseum....

Butting in on behalf of my favorite MuslimWoman, I submit the following for your viewing and listening pleasure.

Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran | Video on TED.com
 
the thing is that those 72 virgins (the arabic word doesnt exactly mean virgin, but thats the translation that got famous) are for every believer. You dont need to kill anybody for that.
 
farhan said:
the thing is that those 72 virgins (the arabic word doesnt exactly mean virgin, but thats the translation that got famous) are for every believer. You dont need to kill anybody for that.
Click to expand...
Did you watch the video?

She indicates that the word has multiple meanings, but also that thereare no references to 72 in the Koran. Can you tell me which verse does?
 
I don't think ANY verse has the "72"; I'm not sure, but I don't even think that's hadith, just some bit of folklore.
 
72 is from a Hadith, not from Quran. The word Hoor means, white, fair, pure, the whiteness of the eye etc. It has come to mean a fair & pure lady with beautiful eyes. The word has also been used in plural form (Hawwariun) in Quran for Jesus' friends (because they washed/purified clothes).

The word for virgin is B-K-R, which is used only once or twice for hoors.

Interesting video btw. lol
 
Found it atlast. Its from Tirmidhi

Muhammad was heard say: "The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy two wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from Damascus to San'a".

So as I said before, this is the minimum stuff that heaven dwellers are gona get.
 
bob x said:
I don't think ANY verse has the "72"; I'm not sure, but I don't even think that's hadith, just some bit of folklore.
Click to expand...

I've never been able to find the 72 virgins in any English translation of the Quran, but some guy in some article I read a few years back quoted a passage that was apparently part of the hadiths. I never got around to investigating it. I don't know Arabic and don't know enough about the hadiths. Whether it's the Talmud or hadiths, I leave it up to Jews and Muslims to do the research so I can ask questions, consult them and make up my own mind.

The trouble is, nobody knows everything there is to know about anything in order to come up with accurate answers because there's always a huge pool of literature to read, examine and explore. You have to dedicate your whole life to accumulating all this knowledge, integrating it into your journey and life experience.

Fundamentalist, evangelical and charismatic Christians like to claim that the "New Testament alone" has all the answers and that it has all you need to know about the "gospel" to understand it. I have come to dispute that claim because I am now aware of how much people (both Christian and non-Christian) do not know about the history and politics of that time and that the "gospel" is not independent of the environment in which it first emerged.

So it is with everyone who claims "sola scriptura" whether it is Christians, Muslims or Karaite Jews. Because no "sacred text" is ever completely independent of the environment in which it first emerged, "sola scriptura" is a ridiculous idea. It is only by studying the historical environment that you can more accurately understand the meaning of the Sacred Text.

Non-Catholic Christians often classify ideas as either "biblical" or "non-biblical," but this can never be the absolute and final way of determining whether an idea is "Christian" or not. If an interpretation does not consider the environment in which Christianity emerged, it cannot be perfectly accurate.

This means that contrary to what non-Catholic Christians or any group that follows a sola scriptura approach believes about their Sacred Text, the "Bible alone" cannot provide all the answers or contain sufficient information to form the most accurate understanding of the "gospel."

I therefore disagree also with Muslims who claim that the "Quran alone" has all the information or like Jibrael claimed a few weeks ago, that there is no such thing as an interpretation with the Quran. It can be understood clearly (sort of like fundamentalist, evangelical and charismatic Christians claiming the Bible clearly says this or that).

It is far more important to be "hermeneutical" than to be "biblical" and to use one's knowledge of the original environment to understand the message. I agree more with the idea of the Oral Torah and Sacred Tradition of Rabbinic Judaism and Catholicism in this regard. It doesn't mean I necessarily accept everything that comes from Rabbinic Judaism and Catholicism. With regard to Judaism, I don't know enough about it to agree or disagree with their interpretations. But with Catholicism, there are things I wouldn't agree with, especially when it comes to questions about what is "fundamental" -- because "Christianity" is the religion whose meaning I have dedicated my life toward contemplating. I have made it my journey. If an idea in Catholicism doesn't make sense in the context of my journey, I reject it.

I actually take the rather extreme view that nothing is actually "fundamental." Whether we accept an idea or not, it's a matter of judgment, a matter of what is more important or more compelling.
 
I believe that the authoritative text of the Islamic Religion is the Qur'an. Also, the stories of Muhammad's life and his sayings are preserved in a vast, though not fully authenticated literature called the Hadith, (Fisher, 2005, Living Religions).
 
wil said:
She indicates that the word has multiple meanings, but also that thereare no references to 72 in the Koran. Can you tell me which verse does?
Click to expand...

On the 72 virgins issue Wil you can see the hadith collections below and every Muslim I know considers Bukhari as the most authoritative, with Muslim coming second ... neither Bukhari nor Muslim, as far as I can find, contain hadith about 72 virgins.

I have seen this subject discussed many times in Muslim forums and all sorts of things are quoted .. for example

Hadith of 72 Virgins

3. Abu Sa`id al-Khudri said, Allah be well-pleased with him: The Messenger of Allah said, upon him blessings and peace:

“The humblest of the People of Paradise shall have eighty thousand servants and seventy-two wives. A palace of pearl and peridot(a: A pale green variety of chrysolite; used as a gemstone) and sapphire shall be erected for him as wide as the distance between al-Jabiya [a valley about 70 kms. East of Makka] and San`a’ [in Yemen].” Al-Tirmidhi and Ahmad narrated it. Here are the hadith narrated by Abu Said Al-Khudri ... search the page for virgins or even wives ... I can't find anything, so perhaps there is some wishful thinking involved here?

Hadith by Abu Said Al-Khudri | From Sahih Bukhari | ahadith by narrator

That is not to say these are not rewards from Allah (swt) for the people of paradise but you can actually follow a trail of exaggeration on this subject ranging from scholars opinions that only martyrs will have 70 or 72 virgins, then everyone will have virgins and various opinions leading to this chap who desperately needs a cold shower:

Al-Suyuti wrote: "Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas."

Far be it from me to suggest what men will desire in this world or the next but anatomically speaking I would have thought it would be quite uncomfortable to have an eternal erection.

The 72 virgins appears to go back to al-Tirmidhi only and as it is not found in Quran, Bukhari or Muslim I leave the subject to Allah (swt).

Interesting to note that houri in Arabic context refers to male and female beings ... so it is my personal view that people who believe paradise will be an orgy with virgins are going to be rather disappointed.

I think it is also telling that my husband, his friends and family had never heard of the 72 virgins until I asked about it ... suggesting to me that it is a bigger issue for non-Muslims than for Muslims.

Nick the Pilot said:
MW,

What are the authoritative texts of Islam?
Click to expand...

Hi Nick

The "violent" verses are not sad (in my opinion, as defense is always a necessity) when put into their correct context. I am actually waiting for some information to be confirmed in the Arabic texts before I post comments on this issue, as it an important one, so I don't want to say the wrong thing.

The authoritative texts are explained very well in this short web page:

The HADITH: How it was Collected and Compiled

from it we can see that the first authority MUST be the Quran, as it is accepted as the Word of Allah (swt).

Next there are hadith collections. I have highlighted a couple of pieces in bold to emphasise them ..MAJOR HADITH COLLECTIONS

Many early collections were fragmentary and were undertaken for special purposes. Most survived as parts of legal and spiritual arguments or were incorporated in the more comprehensive collections. Major, systematic collections were made toward the end of the second and the beginning of the third Hijri centuries:
1. The Mu’watta of Malik is the earliest. He was born in Madinah: B. 93H D 179H
2. The Musnad of Ahmad is next. He was born in Basra: B. 164H D 241H
But the “Sihah Sittah” (literally, “the most rigorously authenticated six”) are:
1. The Sahih of Bukhari. He was born in Bukhara: B. 194H D 256H
2. The Sahih of Muslim. He was born in Nishapur: B. 204H D 261H
3. The Sunan of Abu Dawud. He was born in Sajistan: B. 202H D 275H
4. The Sunan of Tirmidhi. He was born in Khurasan: B. 209H D 279H
5. The Sunan of An-Nisa’i. He was born in Khurasan: B. 214H D 303H
6. The Sunan of Ibn Majah: B. 209H D 273H
These above six are accepted by scholars as the six most reliable collections, the Sihah Sittah (the fully authenticated six collections). Without getting into technical details, it should be pointed out that each of the six uses somewhat different tests for rigorous authentication. Because Bukhari is the most strict, the authenticity of his collection is accepted second only to that of the Qur’an.


So as a Muslim when I come across an issue like the 72 virgins I first look to the Quran ... silent on 72 virgins ... next I go to Bukhari ... again silent on 72 virgins. I don't go beyond that, as anything outside that suggests to me speculation and interpretation I cannot be sure of.


I try to be honest with myself about how our faith was recorded. I know the Quran was written (not in the book form we have now but written down all the same) and memorised during the life of the Prophet (pbuh). The hadith collections were written a long time after and we must look at the political and social goings on at the time to consider what, if anything, could have influenced interpretation.
 
farhan said:
the thing is that those 72 virgins (the arabic word doesnt exactly mean virgin, but thats the translation that got famous) are for every believer. You dont need to kill anybody for that.
Click to expand...

Salam Farhan, hope you are well and enjoying your travels.

The "virgins for martyrs only" also comes from al-Timidhi

It was narrated that al-Miqdaam ibn Ma’di Yakrib said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The martyr has six blessings with Allaah: he will be forgiven from the first drop of blood shed; he will be shown his place in Paradise; he will be protected from the torment of the grave; he will be safe from the greater terror; a crown of dignity will be placed on his head, one ruby of which is better than this world and everything in it; he will be married to seventy-two wives from al-hoor al-‘iyn; and he will intercede for seventy of his relatives.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1663; Ibn Maajah, 2799; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.
 
MW,

This is quickly becoming very confusing. Let's break it down.

What percentage of Muslims accept the Quran as authoritative/infallible? (I assume all Muslims do.)

What percentage of Muslims accept the Hadith as authoritative/infallible? Do all Muslims accept all Hadith?

Is the Tirmidhi a Hadith? What percentage of Muslims accept the Tirmidhi — with its idea of 72 ‘virgins’ — as authoritative/infallible?

Therefore, I see three issues here:

1. whether you (Muslimwoman) accept something (for example, the Tirmidhi) as authoritative/infallible.

2. whether you can find ‘authoritative’ references and quotes to justify accepting and believing particular quotes from the Quran and other books.

3. whether the majority of Muslims accept a particular book as authoritative/infallible. If you do not, but the majority of Muslims do, then it is authoritative/infallible and we must treat it as such.

The way I see it, the only choice that carries weight is the third; what the majority of Muslims believe. What they ‘should’ believe, or whether they have incorrectly interpreted a particular verse (for example, the ‘sword’ verse) is unimportant. The only thing that is important (to me) is what the majority of Muslims believe.

There is one more issue, which is the interpreting of specific passages. You have quoted the passage about killing pagans, yet you are saying you are trying to find the correct ‘interpretation.’ The issue here is whether I will accept an interpretation that goes against what a particular passage actually says. I’m waiting to see what you find as an interpretation, but for now I’m going with the idea that the verse you quoted says Muslims can kill all pagans, because that is what it actually says. (Unfortunately, many religions have books that say "such-and-such a building is blue" but teachers saying "the building is green" because those teachers are trying to conceal a quote in an authoritative book that is flat wrong.) Let’s see if you can convince me this verse only applies to killing pagans in self-defense, and that we do not have a ‘blue vs. green’ situation here. (There is also the issue that you probaby accept the Quran as infallible, but I do not. Do you? This may lead to more disagreements between you and I.)

Which brings up an important point. Are Muslims encouraged to read a verse and come up with their own interpretation about what it means, or are they encouraged/forced to accept one particular teacher’s interpretation of the verse? Does Islam encourage me to make my own interpretation of what these verses about pagans, ‘virgins,’ and sex in heaven actually mean?
 
Muslimwoman said:
Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens.
Click to expand...
To myself, and I think most males, that doesn't actually sound enjoyable. I could not help but be reminded of the addendum that the lawyers require on all advertisements for Viagra and related drugs: "Seek immediate medical attention if you experience an erection lasting longer than four hours!"
 
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