Can someone answer me these in simple terms?

[enlightenment]

millions believe in Glenn Beck, millions in Rush Limbaugh, Millions in Bill Maher, millions in Mohamed, Millions in Krishna, millions in peter pan, millions in sponge bob.... so what. .

Well, with the exception of Mohammmed, no one, to the best of my knowledge, kills in the name of Spong Bob (or any of the others). Spongebob is seen as an entirely fictional charachter. Big difference...

 

[Thomas]

I fail to see how anyone even vaguely familiar with the OT to deny that the god described in it was culpable of great jealousy, disproportionate acts of violence, not to mention the killing of humans who had done no wrong, sometimes on a scale that would be easily seen as a genocide today.

It might be worth your while catching up with current interpretations of those who have made a lifetime's study of these works? It sounds like you've based your assumptions on a 'vaguely familiar' reading of the text?

You might also want to get up to date with notions of God.

Just my thoughts,

God bless,

Thomas

 

[wil]

Well, with the exception of Mohammmed, no one, to the best of my knowledge, kills in the name of Spong Bob (or any of the others). Spongebob is seen as an entirely fictional charachter. Big difference...

Take away the sponge bob from the two year old and see how fictional he is.

I like the dig at Mohammed, quite telling you know. Mohammed expressed quite clearly killing as a last resort.

Beyond that I suppose I wasted my time responding to your post if that was the only thing you thought worthy of discussion.

 

[enlightenment]

Take away the sponge bob from the two year old and see how fictional he is..

I have a one year old grand daughter. She has one toy that speaks when you press a button. She loves that toy. Quite sure that in her immature mind, she does see it as being 'real'. Of course, as adult minds, we know different, and were she to grow up believing that this toy was divine, I for one would be rather worried about her mental state.

Much like Santa, we all love a fairy tale, then, much like the fairy tale, there comes the time to grow up.

Agreed?

 

[enlightenment]

It might be worth your while catching up with current interpretations of those who have made a lifetime's study of these works? It sounds like you've based your assumptions on a 'vaguely familiar' reading of the text?

You might also want to get up to date with notions of God.

Just my thoughts,

God bless,

Thomas

Hi Thomas,


In my experience, I appear to have read both the OT and NT more than many of the so called 'believers' that I have met.

If you are in denial about the murdering, jealous, and psychopathic god of the OT, perhaps you might like to make yourself with familiar with some passages?

Just my thoughts...

 

[Thomas]

In my experience, I appear to have read both the OT and NT more than many of the so called 'believers' that I have met.

It matters not what you have read ... it matters what you have understood.

If you are in denial about the murdering, jealous, and psychopathic god of the OT, perhaps you might like to make yourself with familiar with some passages?

If you haven't fathomed the deeper understandings of such texts, perhaps you'd like to make yourself familiar with some of the writings of the saints, sages, philosophers, poets, artists, scientists, doctors ... in fact some of the greatest people who have ever walked the planet, and who find the text an unending source of insight, inspiration and spiritual refreshment, even though they make no claim to be Moslem, Christian or Jew?

God bless,

Thomas

 

[vizenos]

Much like Santa, we all love a fairy tale, then, much like the fairy tale, there comes the time to grow up.

Agreed?

"Fairy tales" can sometimes surprise you. The figure of Santa Claus is based almost entirely upon a real person: St. Nicholas, Bishop of Myra in Lycia, 4th century A.D.

Regards,
vizenos

 

[vizenos]

It matters not what you have read ... it matters what you have understood.

Oh, well said indeed!

If you haven't fathomed the deeper understandings of such texts, perhaps you'd like to make yourself familiar with some of the writings of the saints, sages, philosophers, poets, artists, scientists, doctors ... in fact some of the greatest people who have ever walked the planet, and who find the text an unending source of insight, inspiration and spiritual refreshment, even though they make no claim to be Moslem, Christian or Jew?

As best I can tell, Enlightenment has built most if not all of his ideas about the Tanach (Old Testament) by reading the writings of people whose view of reality accords with his own, rather than by reading the texts themselves.

Regards,
vizenos

 

[wil]

I have a one year old grand daughter. She has one toy that speaks when you press a button. She loves that toy. Quite sure that in her immature mind, she does see it as being 'real'. Of course, as adult minds, we know different, and were she to grow up believing that this toy was divine, I for one would be rather worried about her mental state.

Much like Santa, we all love a fairy tale, then, much like the fairy tale, there comes the time to grow up.

Agreed?

If you've grown up and lost the spirit of Santa Claus, I feel sorry for you.

Hi Thomas,


In my experience, I appear to have read both the OT and NT more than many of the so called 'believers' that I have met.

If you are in denial about the murdering, jealous, and psychopathic god of the OT, perhaps you might like to make yourself with familiar with some passages?

Just my thoughts...

Again the literal dogmatic fundie atheist belief of those texts is not the belief of many Christians.

The texts are metaphor you but they seem to fly over your head. Keep reading, if not the bible or the Koran, maybe the vedas or sutras or te ching will meet your fancy....explore with your heart though....embrace the poetry.

If you'd like to stay in the material and scientific....so be it, more power to you...

One question....why is it that you are so determined to find fault with all you see. Me thinks you are seeking answers.

 

[enlightenment]

"Fairy tales" can sometimes surprise you. The figure of Santa Claus is based almost entirely upon a real person: St. Nicholas, Bishop of Myra in Lycia, 4th century A.D.

Regards,
vizenos

Thanks for the history lesson, but I already knew his origins.

Hey, fairy tales, wild stories, and fable, they can all have a function, for entertainment purposes, for example. Look at how much Lord Of The Rings took in, at the box office. And Avatar. People have always been drawn to fantastic stories.

Doesn't make them true, and usually pretty dangerous when one begins to accept them as literal truth, or instruction.

 

[enlightenment]

If you've grown up and lost the spirit of Santa Claus, I feel sorry for you.

Again the literal dogmatic fundie atheist belief of those texts is not the belief of many Christians.

The texts are metaphor you but they seem to fly over your head. Keep reading, if not the bible or the Koran, maybe the vedas or sutras or te ching will meet your fancy....explore with your heart though....embrace the poetry.

If you'd like to stay in the material and scientific....so be it, more power to you...

One question....why is it that you are so determined to find fault with all you see. Me thinks you are seeking answers.

This is the standard cop out of many Christians, these days.

Realising that a modern society would have no truck with a god or a book in which there were some terrible instructions ordered by the 'loving' god, not to mention the mass killing of innocents, and realising that anyone who felt motivated could soon find those texts, they have had to adapt, just as religion has had to adapt to the process of evolution (although in many cases, only to rather sadly believe that it was a process which god put in place, on purpose).

Therefore, the fluffy option is to then turn around and claim that it is methaphor and allegory.

Well, if we can safely write off the many direct killings by the god of the OT as being merely metaphor, we can safely write off all the stories as metaphor. Virgin Mary - allegory. Jesus? Metaphor. The crucifixtion? Metaphor. And so on and so on.

 

[Thomas]

This is the standard cop out of many Christians, these days.

Is it? Or is it your radical failure of comprehension?

Interesting that the very name you take is a metaphor. Interesting, also, that you diametrically oppose everything that name stands for.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[enlightenment]

Is it? Or is it your radical failure of comprehension?

Yes, having reviewed the choices, I definitely think that it remains the standard cop out of the modern Christian (I was addressing Wil though, not you, never mind..).

There are more and more Christians that I speak to, who are now claiming that rather than a book of literal and historic events, the OT and NT are a collection of metaphors and allegories. This is sort of handy, because it then doesn't matter how absurd a claim is in the bible .. because it is 'only a metaphor'.

Which is fair enough.

If it is merely a book of metaphors, then, of course, it is only fair that we then take all the more absurd claims, and explain them away as metaphor, rather than actual events.

Moses parting the sea.

The miracles(sic) of Jesus.

Genesis (all of it)..

The ascention of Jesus

And so on..

I think you will also find that unlike Wil, there are still many people who read it as literal truth, an account of actual historical events.

Indeed, they would take issue with Wil and his metaphor theme.

 

[Thomas]

Yes, having reviewed the choices, I definitely think that it remains the standard cop out of the modern Christian

OK. But do realise that does you no credit.

There are more and more Christians that I speak to, who are now claiming that rather than a book of literal and historic events, the OT and NT are a collection of metaphors and allegories.

Well I work with people who believe that the Americans never landed on the moon. You can find someone to support whatever view you want ... It depends whether you make decisions according to a bloke you met in a bar, or according to informed insight.

This is sort of handy, because it then doesn't matter how absurd a claim is in the bible .. because it is 'only a metaphor'.

Actually it's generally accepterd today by scholars that the Bible comprises a number of different genres of writing. Genesis is a completely different book to Psalms, which is completely different to Proverbs ... so you've fundamentally misunderstood what you're reading in the first place. No wonder it makes no sense.

If it is merely a book of metaphors, then, of course, it is only fair that we then take all the more absurd claims, and explain them away as metaphor, rather than actual events.

But it's not, as stated above, and as agreed by scholars, so that would seem to be a rather naive perspective.

I think you will also find that unlike Wil, there are still many people who read it as literal truth, an account of actual historical events.

Depends which bits you're taling about. Scholars universally agreed that Luke made up large portions of his gospel, until they discovered the archaeological evidence to show that he hadn't.

Indeed, they would take issue with Wil and his metaphor theme.

Well so do I, and we've clashed on this point many times.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[enlightenment]

.
Well so do I, and we've clashed on this point many times.

God bless,

Thomas

No surprise then.

There is a very logical reason as to why you and Wil might have very different perpectives while pertaining to believe in the same god.

Can you guess what that reason might be..?

Oh, I am in a good mood, so I will just tell you - the reason that there is such a plethora of conflicting perceptions is quite simply down to the fact that god is an invention of man, and this perfectly explains why, culture to culture, person to person, there would be this chasm, one which is hard to reconcile.

God(sic) is simply who that person wants them to be, and the accounts in the Bible are simply what the reader wants them to be.

 

[seattlegal]

No surprise then.

There is a very logical reason as to why you and Wil might have very different perpectives while pertaining to believe in the same god.

Can you guess what that reason might be..?

Oh, I am in a good mood, so I will just tell you - the reason that there is such a plethora of conflicting perceptions is quite simply down to the fact that god is an invention of man, and this perfectly explains why, culture to culture, person to person, there would be this chasm, one which is hard to reconcile.

God(sic) is simply who that person wants them to be, and the accounts in the Bible are simply what the reader wants them to be.

Actually, this is the reason:

John 13:34-35

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”​

That is what being a Christian is all about. Oh, this is the Christianity forum, so scriptural references are encouraged, rather than silenced.

 

[wil]

Enlightenment...so sad... the little joke that was metaphor you did fly over your head.

As to Thomas, are you aware that some folks are left handed and some folks are right handed, that some folks are near sighted and some folks far sighted, and yet we can all play on the same team and reach for the same goals. Disagreements amongst Christians....I guess you've never sat at a board meeting or seen congress or parliament in action....they've all got the company/country at heart yes? All with the goal of improving its worth and helping the people yes? Why do they disagree do you think?

And you think that it is only modern Chrisitans that thought much was metaphor?? Take a look at Jonah...this is a satirical op ed piece...

Moses crossing the red sea, or reed sea, or were that many people ever enslaved?

I'm not going to do all the metaphor for you....why because it appears all to be over your head, you simply aren't open to it, and whatever I say you'll disagree with.

But for fun...why don't you learn to decipher some, as it doesn't matter what it means to me....the books value or non value is determined by what it means to you.

Moses took his people out of Egypt, crossed the Red Sea, the Jordan and into the Desert for 40 years...(40 is a sign of completion, 4 square, 40 years for Moses, 40 days for Jesus)

Moses

drawing out; drawer out; drawing forth; extracting, i. e., from the water; water-saved.
Son of Amram and Jochebed, and brother of Aaron and Miriam, of the tribe of Levi (Exod. 2:1-10; 6:20; also all of Exodus, Numbers and Deuteronomy). He led the Israelites out of Egypt and through the wilderness preparatory to their entrance into the Promised Land.
Meta. Moses means drawing out, extracting, i. e., from the water. The birth of Moses represents man's development in consciousness of the law of his being, from the negative side. Water represents universal negation; but water also represents the great possibility. Out of seemingly negative conditions comes the new growth.
When we are in what seems Egyptian darkness, and weak as water, we are ripe for the higher understanding. The thoughts that rule in the darkness are bent upon putting out all the children of light, but if we are of the house of faith, as were Moses' parents, then our desire to bring forth the higher consciousness will find a protector.
We must care for the infant thought of Truth and surround it with the ark of love and trust, right in the midst of its seeming enemies. “Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee.”

red sea

Meta. A fixed sea of universal thought that has become part of the very world in which we live. We find it as the race belief in life separate from God, and it has taken up its abode in the sense man and forms a part of his physical existence. The human concept that the life in the body is mortal must be set aside, and the God dominion declared. There is but one life, God.
There is a universal life force, which moves upon a universal substance. This combination of life and substance is the matrix in which all mind force works; symbolically it is the Red Sea or life sea. Human thoughts, which form part of the race consciousness, have impregnated this sea. The Red Sea represents the sum of all the thoughts about life with which the race has impregnated the universal ether. In the mythology of the Greeks and the Romans this is symbolized by the river Styx, over which souls were ferried by Charon. It is familiar to metaphysicians as the psychic realm or race thought, which has to be overcome by the progressive soul.

jordan

the descender; the descending one; the south flowing; flowing down abundantly; dispenser from above; flowing (river) of judgment.
The largest and most noted river in Palestine (Gen. 13:10; 32:10; Josh. 3:17; Matt. 3:6).
Meta. There is a stream of thought constantly flowing through the subconsciousness (the south flowing), made up of thoughts good, bad, and indifferent, which is typified in Scripture by the river Jordan. In other words it is the life flow of thought through the organism from head to feet. In man's ignorant and unredeemed state it is muddy with sense concepts and turbulent with materiality.

Wilderness

In individual consciousness the wilderness is symbolical of the multitude of undisciplined and uncultivated thoughts.

desert

in the consciousness of man is a seeming lack of substance and life.

promised land

a realization of divine substance. It is the foundation of the substratum of the new body in Christ. It is not a dream that man is to possess a body of immortality.
When there wells up in a man a great desire to be free from the bondage of ignorance and the animal propensities, his journey to the Promised Land begins.

Egypt

Meta. The realm of substance and life in the depths of the body consciousness. To the unregenerate soul it is the land of darkness and mystery, yet it is essential to the perpetuation of the body. Egypt signifies the darkness of ignorance, obscurity; it has a special significance in the body consciousness, and we often think of it as referring to the subjective or subconscious mind. We also refer to Egypt as the flesh consciousness, sense consciousness, or material consciousness.
This hidden realm within our organism is in an Egyptian or obscured state to most of us. Yet it is a great kingdom, and its king is Pharaoh, ruler of the sun, or that brain and nerve center which our physiologists have correctly named the solar plexus. They tell us that this is the brain of the body, and that it directs the circulation, digestion, assimilation, and so forth. Students of mind have discovered that the solar plexus is but the organ through which a ruling thought acts, and this ruling thought is typified by Pharaoh, he of the hard heart, who would not “let my people go.” But we should not forget that it is down in Egypt that we find the “grain” or substance required to sustain the man.

 

[enlightenment]

Actually, this is the reason:

John 13:34-35

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
​

That is what being a Christian is all about. Oh, this is the Christianity forum, so scriptural references are encouraged, rather than silenced.

I see. Are you sayig then that Christians really struggle to make a point without defaulting back to bible quotes? Oh - seems I have the answer to that, right there in front of me!

This is a Christian forum? Really? That is news to me, perhaps you might explain why it doesn't actually say that as a header?

And even if it is, are you afraid of anything which challenges your own chosen superstition?

This is common among the religous, when faced with requests for evidence, fact, and contradiction, they take it as a personal attack on them...

The irony is that most Christians would utterly reject that Islam or Judaism or Buddism were the one truth(sic), and yet they get pissy if anyone suggests that maybe their one belief system is full of misinformation and error.

Anyway, according to you, the ENTIRE point of the bible and even god, is that we should love one another, right? That was in the John bit, the importance of doing that.

Hardly much of a revelation, is it?

I mean, human love and fellowship existed long before those words were scribbled down, it was hardly a new find was it, people had been doing it, people were doing it, and people would have gone on to do it, no matter what was in the bible - people have love for each other.

Not all, of course, but that would be entirely unrealistic, and a bit of a hippy type notion, a utopia that could never be properly achieved and sustained, for as long as we had so many different types of people, in terms of our thinking.

 

[Paladin]

I see. Are you sayig then that Christians really struggle to make a point without defaulting back to bible quotes? Oh - seems I have the answer to that, right there in front of me!

This is a Christian forum? Really? That is news to me, perhaps you might explain why it doesn't actually say that as a header?

And even if it is, are you afraid of anything which challenges your own chosen superstition?

This is common among the religous, when faced with requests for evidence, fact, and contradiction, they take it as a personal attack on them...

The irony is that most Christians would utterly reject that Islam or Judaism or Buddism were the one truth(sic), and yet they get pissy if anyone suggests that maybe their one belief system is full of misinformation and error.

Anyway, according to you, the ENTIRE point of the bible and even god, is that we should love one another, right? That was in the John bit, the importance of doing that.

Hardly much of a revelation, is it?

I mean, human love and fellowship existed long before those words were scribbled down, it was hardly a new find was it, people had been doing it, people were doing it, and people would have gone on to do it, no matter what was in the bible - people have love for each other.

Not all, of course, but that would be entirely unrealistic, and a bit of a hippy type notion, a utopia that could never be properly achieved and sustained, for as long as we had so many different types of people, in terms of our thinking.

Hey Enlightenment,

I've known Seattlegal for a number of years now and I can verify her use of scripture is to illuminate a thought rather than as an appeal to authority, she's way too sharp for that!
It sounds like you have a healthy skepticism going on there, good for you that kind of stimulus is very welcome.
One thing I learned here is that people are precious even if I think their beliefs are..well a bit magical at times.
The things I have seen people bring to the table here are really quite interesting. So I read quite a bit, and post a little.

 

[seattlegal]

Would you rather have me quote Shakespeare? Perhaps George Orwell? Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451?