Buddhist and Catholic - Raising Kids

dragonFli

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So my boyfriend of 2 years is Catholic and I am Buddhist. I know he was thinking of proposing soon so we started talking about serious stuff like how are we going to raise kids. We are both very religious and to me it didn't seem too big of a problem until he insisted upon having the kids receive baptism, communion, and confirmation no matter what. I was deeply hurt after this ultimatum because I was expecting some sort of a compromise. Finally after long endless discussions I suggested that we let the children go through baptism but let them decide about communion and confirmation when they're 18. But my boyfriend was completely against it and said he would still support me in my religion but he wanted to have the kids go through those 3 and bring them to church every Sunday. Now we have sort of come to a dead end since I don't like the idea of communion and confirmation because a child is completely incapable of deciding what they need at that age and I feel like they are going to be sort of "tricked" into being Catholic. But my boyfriend obviously disagrees and does not like my compromise of having the kids wait till they're 18. We've almost broken up thinking there is no solution to this matter and we didn't want to continue this relationship if we're both just gonna end up being hurt or left out.

At this point I'm desperately in need of help. All I want to know is if my compromise is unfair and/or if there are any other ways we can compromise on these ceremonies.

We have already agreed that he would bring the children to church and we would go to a Buddhist temple once in a while. The only problem here is with the ceremonies. Any advice or help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Thank you
 
Hi DragonFli,

I have a lot of experience counseling couples in your situation. The first thing I would say is do NOT get married until this issue is resolved. Can you put things on hold (especially a date for the wedding) until this gets resolved?

I have also seen this attitude become stronger as the years go by. Do not expect this to get 'better' as the years go by, it might get worse. Also (and very important), any agreement he makes now is no guarantee -- he might suddenly change his mind when your daughter is old enough to start Sunday school.

I have more to say, but what do you think so far?
 
I agree with Nick, Dragonfli. If your boyfriend is not willing to compromise before you get married, he probably won't once you get married. It is good that you have discovered this before you got married and had children!
 
If I was going to add something, I'd say this.

I think your boyfriend is doing you a favour by being honest about what he wants and being firm about it now. It is better than wanting something, not telling your partner about it and some five years later having a fight about it, realising this wasn't what you wanted and getting disappointed.

If your boyfriend compromises now, he will become more demanding later (and return to his original stance). If he doesn't compromise and sticks to what he originalling asked for, I think there might be a possibility that he'll slack off later on after you're married.

Ok, Nick the Pilot here is the counsellor here and his advice and experience will most likely override mine. But I was thinking (as a layperson) . . . maybe you shouldn't push your boyfriend to give up communion and confirmation (actually that's a funny term in a church I never heard of until today).

Actually, unless it's really important to you, I think you should let it go for now in the hope that maybe your future husband will become more lenient. You could always ask him again after you're married.

. . . or perhaps you could convince yourself that it really isn't such a big deal anyway. I don't know how much communion, baptism and confirmation would mean to "Catholic" kids born in an interfaith marriage. When people grow up, they change their views on a lot of things. When they're 18, you could tell your kids that you allowed them to be brought up Catholic because their father was just too stubborn. If you had your way, it wouldn't have happened. You were the gentle one.

just my thoughts......
 
I have also seen this attitude become stronger as the years go by. Do not expect this to get 'better' as the years go by, it might get worse. Also (and very important), any agreement he makes now is no guarantee -- he might suddenly change his mind when your daughter is old enough to start Sunday school.
I agree with Nick, Dragonfli. If your boyfriend is not willing to compromise before you get married, he probably won't once you get married. It is good that you have discovered this before you got married and had children!

Really? Does it get worse, or simply not improve?:D
 
Salty,

I have found that most people become more rigid about religion as time goes by. (Isn't this true of most people when it comes religion?) But there is one thing that DragonFli really needs to start thinking about, and that is her in-laws. What I have seen is that, when the daughter becomes old enough to go to Sunday school, her husband-to-be's family members tend to get very involved in what is happening. This has two effects. One is that the family members might start putting a lot of pressure on DragonFli, something that is not in the picture yet. The second effect is that her husband may have been vacillating on some particular aspects of the issue, but his family members cause him to stop vacillating, join them, and 'gang up' on DragonFli. This also brings up another 'yet-unseen' issue, which is that the husband and wife absolutely must work together as a team whenever his family 'gangs up' on her, and it sounds like the two of them have not had this discussion yet either (an all-too common problem). The husband might have to protect his wife from his family members, and right now, that is not happening at all right now. (Have DragonFli, her financee, his parents, and any other of his family members who have strong Catholic convictions sat down at a table and discussed every possible facet of this dilemma? I doubt it. These five or six people must sit down, have this discussion, I'm sure it probably won't happen, and that is a big red flag.) For example, what about the extra pressure his family will put on her when DragonFli et all visit his family's home for Christmas dinner? Has this even been brought up for discussion?

Another point: DragonFli and her finance must agree that both of them are totally free to say whatever they want to say to their children. Unfortunately, I do not see that happening -- I predict the husband will begin to restrict what she can and cannot say to the children. All of this will happen years from now, so none of this may have started yet, and this could turn into a big problem that neither of them has even considered yet.

Then there is the issue of Sunday church school vs. Sunday Dharma school -- the acutal issue that DragonFli brought up in her post. It sounds like the husband is going to require that Sunday church school be more important than Sunday Dharma school -- an unworkable situation. This is especially true because both parents-to-be are very devout in their own religion. Flexibility is the only way on this, and I seriously wonder if the husband will be flexible enough.

One more thing. Will the children be allowed to choose? Will the Catholic father allow his daughter to become Buddhist is she so wishes? (I doubt it.) There is no way this is going to work unless he allows such a thing. (I have also found that a person's inclination towards a particular depends on which religion they have been a member of in their last several reincarnations, if the daughter has had several recent reincarnations as a Buddhist then of course she will want to be a Buddhist again, but this is an entirely different topic.)

One more thing: Perhaps the most important thing we can teach our children is critical thinking skills. Will the husband allow DragonFli to teach critical thinking skills to the children -- point out to the children things in the Bible that are ridiculous as far as DragonFli is concerned?

And we have not even touched basic marriage counseling questions; between the husband allow DragonFli, who has the stronger personality? How does the person with the stronger personality compensate for this and find ways for the weaker person to get in just as many words into a discussion, get as much attention, etc.? How will the person with the stronger personality's opinons (in this case, religious opinons) be guaranteed equal time?
 
Two typos

in the first sentence of the last paragraph

"And we have not even touched basic marriage counseling questions; between the husband and DragonFli..."

in the last sentence

"How will the person with the weaker personality's opinons..."
 
I have found that most people become more rigid about religion as time goes by. (Isn't this true of most people when it comes religion?)

For me it's the other way round. I used to be quite judgmental and strict. Now I'm liberal and get uncomfortable around fanatical, zealous and judgmental people (in religious terms). I think people who become more rigid about religion probably weren't very religious when they were young. I've already been through my days of rigidity and I'm sick of it.

I was assuming that DragonFli's fiancee would one day get sick of being so rigid. We've had quite a few disillusioned Catholics lately. What would you make of Quahom, for example. He was put off by Catholicism earlier in his life. Now he's gotten over it, but I don't see signs of him becoming more rigid. I think he's become practical-minded about it. If DragonFli's fiancee becomes more rigid, I'm thinking it's because he's young and inexperienced.

But there is one thing that DragonFli really needs to start thinking about, and that is her in-laws.

Oh darn, not those nasty in-laws again!:eek:

One is that the family members might start putting a lot of pressure on DragonFli, something that is not in the picture yet. The second effect is that her husband may have been vacillating on some particular aspects of the issue, but his family members cause him to stop vacillating, join them, and 'gang up' on DragonFli. This also brings up another 'yet-unseen' issue, which is that the husband and wife absolutely must work together as a team whenever his family 'gangs up' on her, and it sounds like the two of them have not had this discussion yet either (an all-too common problem).

Lack of communication -- really disrupts relationships. I think it was good that you brought up the in-laws and DragonFli would benefit from exploring this aspect of the relationship. I think she needs to know what is happening behind-the-scenes. Parents can really screw up the lives of their children, pressuring them to do things they are not comfortable doing and not actually understanding the real situation.

The son or daughter, through inexperience, may not know any better and will simply comply with his/her parents' demands. Depression, mental illness, an unequal relationship between parents and their kids, and/or domination and bullying by parents will make it harder for the son/daughter to realise what is really happening.

My father did that to me for a number of years until I realised that I wasn't really chasing after what I really wanted, but what my father wanted. It wasn't all my father's "fault." I felt that people had expectations of me that I had to achieve certain things in my life in a particular way and under a particular schedule. I don't want to go into details, but it wasn't just my father, but friends and other family members. I was under a "delusion" that I had to please and impress all these people.

The husband might have to protect his wife from his family members, and right now, that is not happening at all right now.
(Have DragonFli, her financee, his parents, and any other of his family members who have strong Catholic convictions sat down at a table and discussed every possible facet of this dilemma? I doubt it. These five or six people must sit down, have this discussion, I'm sure it probably won't happen, and that is a big red flag.) For example, what about the extra pressure his family will put on her when DragonFli et all visit his family's home for Christmas dinner? Has this even been brought up for discussion?

The son is going to have to "get tough" on this parents!:rolleyes: I don't want to have to go into detail about how my father screwed up my life. But DragonFli, make sure your boyfriend isn't a "people pleaser" and doesn't have the same "delusion" I did.

Parents can really be villains in your life. They were for me. I've stopped following orders. The usual response now is to hold up my middle finger at them (to tell them to "fark off"). Nah, just kidding. It isn't that bad.:D
 
DragonFli: If your boyfriend says he will support you in your faith, but is not willing to do the same for your children, RUN!
 
DragonFli: If your boyfriend says he will support you in your faith, but is not willing to do the same for your children, RUN!

Ok, here's my two cents, DragonFli.:)

Whatever you do, don't rush into it. You've got plenty of time.

.....and a disclaimer here: It's going to be hard not to make any assumptions about what's in your mind. But here's what I would add, considering how I generally see the issue of marriage.

Of course, I know you don't want to waste your time on a man who just isn't worth the trouble. A lot of people think like that. They are in such a hurry to find the "right person," so they can have decades having kids, raising them and enjoying life with their spouse. I'm saying, woooaaaaaa, slow down!!! A person's biological clock can have a big influence on compelling them to get married fast. Your fertility is decreasing each year. But is marriage and kids so important that you have to rush it?

You're Buddhist, right? I thought Buddhism was about not being too attached to things. There is of course the ethical issue of how imposing Catholicism on your kids might be "bad" for your kids. At the moment I don't know if your concern is about ethics or whether you want your own way of life to be passed down to your children.

There might be things you don't understand about your fiancee, and probably things he doesn't understand about himself. Why are these Catholic rituals so important and why is it so important to be Catholic? Is your fiancee really thinking about what he wants or what his parents want? Perhaps he could look for another religion or try to find a more liberal section of the Catholic community. Perhaps he needs to confront his parents.

I think you really have to analyse the situation and find out who or what is costing you the most in whatever aspirations or ambitions you have in life. Is it Catholicism? The parents? Your fiancee? What are the options and alternatives? What is negotiable? What is essential?

Whatever it is, you or your fiancee have to get tough on someone. I think there are still a lot of options you could both try here and saying you or your fiancee can't change their religion shouldn't be an excuse.

Jesus said he didn't come to bring peace but a sword. Maybe Catholicism, or at least the version of Catholicism he follows needs to be thrown in the rubbish bin. Maybe he needs to tell his parents to "fark off." Someone needs to have a change of heart here, including his parents.

Let the earthquake begin.

Oh and one more thing. No offence to Catholics, but ..... Catholicism isn't a race/ethnicity like Judaism so I don't understand why it's so important to bring up your kids as "Catholic" with all these rituals. I don't think even Islam goes that far. I'm a "Protestant" so I don't get it.
 
HiFli :)

These are the words from your post that stuck out to me:

he insisted
no matter what
completely against it
a Buddhist temple once in a while
We all have beliefs that we are unable or unwilling to compromise on, sometimes these are of a religious nature. It seems your boyfriend is unwilling to compromise in this area; Catholicism is the right and only way for his children, but hey they can go to a Buddhist temple once in a while...

If you were the same as him, as you are "deeply religious", how would that pan out? What I mean is, what if you insisted that the kids went for Refuge to the Triple Gem, attended all the "important" Buddhist festivals and meditated on a regular basis (but went to a Christian church once in a while)?

I do think this is something that needs sorting out between you before any decision on your relationship future / marriage, as it is clearly a deal breaker for him and his ultimatums are upsetting you. Once married, there would be much less room for compromise.

At birth, adults have to make these decisions for the newly born. Once they are able to make their own choices they will therefore have been influenced by the upbringing (to accept or reject it...)

And what type of wedding was being insisted upon??!!:confused::eek:

Snoopy.
 
Salty,

in my experience it is standard procedure for religious types to automatically assume that their offspring will be inculcated into the club, whether that be CoE, Catholics, Sikhs, Muslims (these are the ones I know of personally); the Buddhists I know don't have this insistence, but in Buddhist "countries" it is probably a different story.

s.
 
flee woman!

To be fair this isn't all on the boyfriend. I see the woman as being "at fault" here too. She doesn't want the children to be "tricked" into Catholicism? That's a pretty harsh judgement if you ask me. And she totally discounts her daily influence vs. a Sunday visit to church. I agree that the red flags are pretty clear here. I just don't think the boyfriend is the only person waving one.
 
First of all, I'd like to thank everyone who put in the time and effort to respond. I really appreciate it.

Before getting into what you all mentioned, I would like to mention the three kinds of compromises/agreements we have tried so far:

1. He gave me an ultimatum, and I realized the only way to be with him is to agree to let him bring all the children Catholic. But he realized I wasn't really happy with the decision because I know I'm going to feel left out because: 1. he will goto the church with kids every Sunday, and I'll only go a couple of times with them. 2. When I want to goto the temple, the kids or him aren't going to have that same interest or excitement as me. So since I felt like the decision completely disregards as to what I want for our children, we decided to think of something else.

2. My boyfriend spoke with a priest and then he came home and suggested to me that we still make them go through communion and then at age 15, let the kid decide if they want to receive confirmation or not. To me this wasn't much different than what he had insisted upon earlier. I asked how a 15 year old is old enough to make that decision, and he had even mentioned that he stands strong on communion because that's an extra step towards making sure they're Catholic. I asked what if they chose buddhism at age 15, then he said he's still gonna make them goto church and be involved in both religions equally. But all I feel is that it is very unfair since once the child has gone thru baptism, communion, his mind is going to be set on receiving the next step; confirmation and I am not going to have any say in it. But just to keep things cool I kind of agreed to it for a while.

2. But after thinking about it a lot, I felt like my needs have not been taken into considerations at all. I was deeply hurt thinking the fact that he would never say "oh you can bring up the kids Buddhist the way you want, cuz all I want to do is be with you". And I felt like if he loves me as much as he says he does, then he should be willing to take my needs into consideration instead of just going along with what him and his priest discussed. So I decided to be more vocal about my needs and told him that the only way I would be with him if we let the children wait till their 18. So at this point we've both given each other ultimatums. I know this is wrong but sometimes it is really hard not be a little selfish. I mean what's the point if I am willing to give up everything for him but he stands strong on what he says.

But none of these compromises worked because we realized either way, one of us is going to be unhappy with the decision and we still do love each other very much and hate to see the other person sad.

So right now where we are is at a point where we're going to kind of ease up on the heated up debates on religion and take our time for a while. He hasn't proposed to me yet, so yes, we do have some time to think about this stuff.

Now, to address a couple of things you guys posted:

Nick: We have actually sat down and written things down that we agree upon or disagree upon. But like you said we both know a piece of paper doesn't mean we're not going to change our minds in the future. And yes, I am well aware that the in-laws are going to be very much involved and no we haven't sat down and discussed this with them. However, his dad has mentioned to him a couple of times that we will have issues with raising kids. His dad is very vocal about Catholicism and is going to be very upset if the children aren't going to be raised strictly Catholic. That is something my boyfriend is thinking of talking to his dad about. On the other hand, my parents (both Buddhist) are happy with whatever that makes me happy. But we won't to come to an agreement amongst ourselves before getting the in-laws involved. My bf has also agreed that we are allowed to say to our children what we believe in, even though it is going to be contradicting most of the time. He also said we should teach the children our religions ourselves and not involve sunday schools since this will be too much for the children. I said that I should be able to tell the kids things like harming animals is bad, and you shouldn't make fun of people etc which aren't emphasized in Catholicism.

Saltmeister: yea, I have tried many many times (like when I made that 1st compromise), to tell myself that I am going to let him have his way and if somethings meant to be then it'll happen and yes, I can tell the children I was the gentle one :) But it's harder than I thought. When one person is pushing hard to get their way, then I feel completely neglected and wonder what role I will be playing in this relationship with him/our children. But all in all, what I wish to gain is fairness. Equal inputs from us as parents and let the child decide when they're adults. However, like you said my bf IS a people pleaser! uh oh! and he is going to want to take his parents side when they become involved. Hopefully he loves me enough to see my point of view. I know Buddhism is supposed to be all about not being greedy and letting go, but honestly when one side of the rope is being pulled and I'm just been pulled along with it, it's hard not to pull back a little. But all I'm concerned about is being fair, and I know he's strict on communion/confirmation because that is going to mentally influence a person telling them that they are in fact Catholic. Not that there's everything wrong with them being Catholic, but I want them to choose a religion based on what THEY think is right, not on what was imposed on them.

Snoopy: Yes, it is correct that he insisted and was completely against what I wanted at first, but going to the temple once in a while was something I mentioned since living in USA it is definitely hard to find a temple where ever u live. And I myself do not go to the temple every week. But I would definitely like to visit whenever I can and especially at special occasions. And speaking of wedding, he was fine with having a church wedding and a poruwa wedding since mine is more cultural than religious. But if it were religious he mentioned that his relatives would probably have a problem attending the wedding.

So my biggest problem right now is getting him to realize that it is okay to wait till their 18 for them to receive communion and confirmation, and until then we would just have to play our own roles and educate the children in both religions as much as we can. But he feels like he is not keeping up to his duties if he doesn't have the child receive communion at least. So this is the only thing that is keeping us from making future plans and moving on. Either I need to just let go and let him have his way, or he needs to agree to waiting till the kids are 18, so we both get half half in my opinion. The only thing we agree on is that we know whatever decision is made, one of us is going to be somewhat unhappy and is going to have to "deal with it".
 
To be fair this isn't all on the boyfriend. I see the woman as being "at fault" here too. She doesn't want the children to be "tricked" into Catholicism? That's a pretty harsh judgement if you ask me. And she totally discounts her daily influence vs. a Sunday visit to church. I agree that the red flags are pretty clear here. I just don't think the boyfriend is the only person waving one.

oh i don't really care about assigning blame or responsibility...they should both flee... but seeing as she's posting here and he isn't....

metta,

~v
 
DragonFli,

You need to addresss a couple of issues.

The one thing that keeps screaming from your posts is that your fiancee is unable to to see things from your point of view. Find out for sure. Sit him down and ask him to put into words what he thinks are your points of view. Let us know what he says. I want you to go through each and every issue you have written in your posts here, and see if he will say these things out loud to you. (Then do the same for him, see if you can see all of these issues from his point of view -- not an easy thing to do.) This may be a little tricky, and I have some marriage counseling techniques on how to make this easier. Feel free to ask for more info on how to do this. Please remember that the most important communication skill in a marriage is being able to see things from the other person's point of view, that is not happening here, and you need to make it start happening here.

Your fiancee is a 'people pleaser,' which means he is unable to assert himself against his father. Is he ready to start standing up to his father? (Do you want to marry someone who cannot stand up for himself?) He needs to begin assertiveness training. Are you ready to become his assertiveness trainer? The two of you must be very clear about how you are going to deal with his father. More importantly, the two of you must be very clear about how he is going to deal with his father, and how he is going to stand up to his father and protect you from his father when he agrees with you and disagrees with his father. You are going to have to fight battles with your father-in-law, does your fiancee admit this and is he willing to help you at such times? Does your fiancee think he cannot assert himself against his father? Have the two of you talked about this? When you disagree with your fiancee's father and your fiancee agrees with you, will your fiancee go to bat for you 100%? You need to ask this question to your fiancee directly.

I grew up Catholic. I know they will not say it is okay to wait until the children are 18 for communion and confirmation.

How about having two weddings?

I want you think about a new idea. Your biggest concern is the rituals of communion, confirmation, and going to church. Quite frankly, I think these rituals are meaningless, and you might want to consider letting them go to these meaningless rituals. Let them sprinkle a little meaningless water at baptism and eat a little meaningless bread at communion time. You have a much bigger problem than a little bread and water. Will they give you the right to tell the children you think communion and confirmation is meaningless? Do they have the right to tell the children they do NOT have to take refuge in the Three Jewels of Buddhism when they go to temple? Have you asked them if they will forbid you to have the children do ANY Buddhist rituals or recite any Buddhist doctrines??? It's only a matter of time before they start doing this, don't you think? By the way, what kind of Buddhist are you?

The big problem here is not meaningless rituals, the problem is that you are being set up as a 'second-class citizen' in your own marriage. Is your fiancee willing to see this from your point of view? Is he willing to say it out loud to you?
 
The only thing we agree on is that we know whatever decision is made, one of us is going to be somewhat unhappy and is going to have to "deal with it".

Isn't "dealing with it" one of the hallmarks of good Buddhist practice?

Seems to me when you're able to "deal with it" happiness naturally follows.
 
DragonFli,

One more thing: You are probably starting to think this is hopeless. I want you to know you CAN do this successfully. But certain changes must be made. I want to reassure you that, if you make certain changes, everythiing will be okay.

You can do it. I know you can.
 
sorry to say, but... this is a BIG issue...

I, as an identifying buddhist who was raised a catholic, can, I think, see both sides. You don't wanna indoctrinate the kids. Fair enough. But he does. He wants them to be catholics as soon as they open their eyes, you want to let them make their own minds up. One of you will have to bend to the will of the other, or, you're screwed, as a family, potentially. This kind of big issue could poison your family...

Maybe honesty is the best policy. I was reading a post today about raising kids by China Cat Sunflower. He made a lot of sense.

You do have to let them make their own rules, to a certain extent. You're not your children's owners -- they're people too. If they are to have a chance, they have to be involved in the big decisions. If you don't want them to do something, you need a damn good explanation why -- "because I said so" doesn't cut it...

I know it sounds a bit... rubbish, but... go and find a buddhist to have children with.

Yes, together, you'll indoctrinate them towards buddhism, but at least you'll all be on the same page.

Your compromise isn't unfair. In fact, its completely rational, and sensible. Why not let them choose for themselves, as grown-ups?

There is no compromise here, is there?

Sorry x
 
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