Take this cup from me?

[Gatekeeper]

I'm sure Jesus had an idea of what was in store for him. Think about the scourging, being spit upon, the mocking, the nails securely hanging him on the cross. Not that he desired to NOT fulfill His purpose, but rather I feel that He wanted the heavy cup that crucifixion entailed to be removed.

Death to me is separation from the Father of life, but did Jesus want the cup of death (Separation from the farther) to be removed? He certainly knew he was going to die and be separated from His father at some point in His life; He was human after all, yet He knew he would be raised in glory.

I believe that service to God was Christ's sacrifice (Not His death) as all humans must die. Even so, he served God flawlessly, giving his life for Gods purpose. Death was simply a part of being human, but His service to God, walking in the Spirit, loving and forgiving even those who placed Him on the cross is what pleased God (Imo).

I think this pleased God because Christ Jesus never faltered in His love for us even amidst such brutality. I think he wanted to not be tempted in a manner that he might falter in Gods love. If there were ever a time that Jesus would falter in His love for mankind, it was when he was being scourged, spat upon, mocked, and nailed to the cross, no?

I think this is the cup Jesus wanted removed -- The temptation to harbor un-forgiveness, and bitterness, and anger towards those He came to save. It was a heavy load, and thanks be to God for giving Jesus the strength and the love to overcome such temptation!

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do". A very powerful display of love for his fellow man, indeed!


GK

 

[wil]

And the last words....I've heard have been now translated as acknowledgement of what he had been saved for...to show the way.

how often have we wanted to shirk from our responsibility, wanted to put down that cup.

But I see no separation....Jesus realized his oneness, just occasionally that human side came out...a temporary lapse....we are the reverse, we have temporary lapses with connectedness, and act out of our humaness most often....well speakng for myself.

 

[Gatekeeper]

And the last words....I've heard have been now translated as acknowledgement of what he had been saved for...to show the way.

how often have we wanted to shirk from our responsibility, wanted to put down that cup.

But I see no separation....Jesus realized his oneness, just occasionally that human side came out...a temporary lapse....we are the reverse, we have temporary lapses with connectedness, and act out of our humaness most often....well speakng for myself.

"Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

I think we will always be connected, but being that we are living souls (Natural beings) our soul (Consciousness) is separated from life when we die and give up the spirit. Our bodies return to mother earth, and our spirit returns to the father.

I think when Jesus said those words, he felt his consciousness (Soul) fading to black, losing awareness and his connection to His Father. In other words Jesus truly tasted the death of His soul. "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Mark 8:36-37) Jesus was put into the tomb a natural body, but was raised a spiritual body. He gave his life in service to God and in service to His fellow man, thus Jesus gave His life in exchange for His soul, God raised him a spiritual body because Jesus served God in Love.

"So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:42-44)

Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, "I believed, and so I spoke," we also believe, and so we also speak, knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence." (2 Corinthians 4:13-14)

If we wish to keep our souls (Conscious awareness) I think it is required that we deny our selves, and give our lives in service to God (Who is love). "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding." (Romans 14:17-19)


GK

 

[wil]

So the story goes we go from Aramaic as he spoke it, to what was written in Greek decades later... However do we believe that G!d forsake Jesus, or that Jesus would have thought that at that moment with the other statements he made (to the others on the cross that they would all be soon in paradise, or the forgive them for they know not what they do...of the seven phrases from the cross, this is the only one incongruent.)

The Aramaic phrase is Êlî Êlî (or Elohî Elohî) lmâ švaqtanî.

A limited number of scholars have asserted this alternate translation of Matthew 27:46:
Matthew 27:46 (Lamsa translation)- ηλι ηλι λαμανα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lamana sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa-naa saa-baach-taa-nee?") Researchers from this vein attribute the current wording of this verse to errors in the original transcription and claim that "Eli, Eli, lemana shabakthani" ("My God, my God, for this [purpose] I was spared!" or "...for such a purpose have you kept me!") is more correct. The leading purporters of this theory have been Rocco A. Errico and George M. Lamsa.

 

[Gatekeeper]

So the story goes we go from Aramaic as he spoke it, to what was written in Greek decades later... However do we believe that G!d forsake Jesus, or that Jesus would have thought that at that moment with the other statements he made (to the others on the cross that they would all be soon in paradise, or the forgive them for they know not what they do...of the seven phrases from the cross, this is the only one incongruent.)

"for such a purpose have you kept me!"

I agree to some extent, but I think it could read both ways, as God ultimately "kept" Jesus, yet Jesus also died. I believe that when we die, it is as Solomon says. We cease to be living souls (Consciously aware) yet we will also be resurrected if we endure to the end, thus our service to God and His love will keep us (Preserve our souls) just as God kept Jesus and preserved His soul.

I think when Jesus spoke to the thief while on the cross, suggesting that the he would be with Him in paradise, He was not speaking of heaven, but rather about the part of Hades which is thought to be the abode of departed souls preserved until the resurrection (Perhaps in a state of slumber)

Jesus lost his soul (Conscious awareness) when the fathers spirit left him, (He truly tasted death) but the father kept His soul preserved in paradise (Hades) for three days until He Himself was raised in a spiritual body.

I think when Jesus said those words, he felt his consciousness (Soul) fading to black, losing awareness and his connection to His Father. Jesus truly tasted the death (Departure) of His soul and His connection to the Father at that moment, thus His father had left Him, yet still preserved (Kept) Him.


Just another POV to consider,


GK

 

[wil]

Jesus didn't die, he died to his old self and resurected anew. This is taught to us by the resurection. As Paul implores, we must put on the mind of Christ, and 'die daily'.

Die to the old ego self, and resurect the new self. Allow the negativity to die, and resurect in a positivity. The acorn must die to become the oak. We must die to realize our oneness.

Jesus died to show us the way, it was the final thing for him to overcome.....life and for this challenge he gave Judas one heck of a job.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Jesus didn't die, he died to his old self and resurected anew. This is taught to us by the resurection. As Paul implores, we must put on the mind of Christ, and 'die daily'.

Jesus was human, thus death was his fate, so I will disagree that he did not die. "Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (Hades) neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:24-31)

Die to the old ego self, and resurect the new self. Allow the negativity to die, and resurect in a positivity. The acorn must die to become the oak. We must die to realize our oneness.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jesus died to show us the way, it was the final thing for him to overcome.....life and for this challenge he gave Judas one heck of a job.

I agree, but only in part -- "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


GK

 

[Quahom1]

"Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

That was a moment of "human weakness and fear". Christ was both man and God, and at the time of this statement he was all man (gave up his divinity for to be like us in all ways)...

Yet he still didn't quit. He rose above all, in his Humaness, and still asked the Father to forgive the foolish and ignorant...wow...What a man...

And when he rose from the dead, he was no longer, a man...

 

[Gatekeeper]

"Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

That was a moment of "human weakness and fear". Christ was both man and God, and at the time of this statement he was all man (gave up his divinity for to be like us in all ways)...

Yet he still didn't quit. He rose above all, in his Humaness, and still asked the Father to forgive the foolish and ignorant...wow...What a man...

And when he rose from the dead, he was no longer, a man...

I know that's right! He was quite a man indeed! I also think you are correct about that being the moment of human weakness and fear; I can't imagine it being anything other than. When he rose from the dead, he was no longer natural (Mortal) but spiritual (Immortal), which would make him more than a man, yup yup!

 

[Amergin]

I know that's right! He was quite a man indeed! I also think you are correct about that being the moment of human weakness and fear; I can't imagine it being anything other than. When he rose from the dead, he was no longer natural (Mortal) but spiritual (Immortal), which would make him more than a man, yup yup!

It surely sounds like a cry of despair and regret. Who really know what Aramaic translations into 2nd Century Greek conveyed affect or even correct semantics. What it clearly tells me is that Jesus was talking to some OTHER person than himself. Why would he talk to himself? He not only talked to other but to one to whom he (Jesus) was subordinate in rank.

The story of resurrection is still controversial. We have gospel evidence that he was crucified. But we have no gospel evidence that he actually died on the cross. He may have been unconscious with a weak radial pulse from dehydration and congestive heart failure. He spent only a couple of hours on the cross.

Many of those executed lasted a couple of days before dying. We do not know for sure if he died or was in Hypotensive Cardiovascular Shock (coma).

He would have awakened if placed supine position (in the tomb) for a number of hours. Thus he may have simply recovered from transient heart failure and awakened from decreased cerebral blood flow. A third possibility is that he may have died but followers removed his body to some unknown location. The stories written a century later are unreliable alone.

Jesus never claimed to be God. He never denied that he was a natural man. Much of the gospel story seems to follow the script of resurrected Pagan virgin born god-men.

Unfortunately, no observer or reporter, noted unquestionable evidence of death. No body recorded radial or carotid pulses. Heart beats (by listening to chest with ear) were not commented upon. Nobody noted if his pupils were dilated and unreactive to light. Nobody reported listening closely for respiratory sounds.

The only report was a spear thrust into the abdomen that resulted in bloody fluid mixed with water (ascited) commonly seen in congestive heart failure, not a specific sign of death.

Amergin

 

[Amergin]

And the last words....I've heard have been now translated as acknowledgement of what he had been saved for...to show the way.

how often have we wanted to shirk from our responsibility, wanted to put down that cup.

But I see no separation....Jesus realized his oneness, just occasionally that human side came out...a temporary lapse....we are the reverse, we have temporary lapses with connectedness, and act out of our humaness most often....well speakng for myself.

I am speaking only for myself. I do not understand why most people fail to notice that he talks to God as an other entity and as a subordinate to God, doing God's will. That does not sound like oneness to me. To me that is more important than debating the meaning of his words.

Amergin

 

[Sam Albion]

jesus was a man... and when he realised what God wanted him to do... he pooped in his pants. He has his own crisis of faith.... that's how I see it...

 

[wil]

I am speaking only for myself. I do not understand why most people fail to notice that he talks to God as an other entity and as a subordinate to God, doing God's will. That does not sound like oneness to me. To me that is more important than debating the meaning of his words.

Amergin

Never argued with yourself over major life decisions?

 

[Amergin]

Never argued with yourself over major life decisions?

I debate with myself over pros and cons of a decision but I never beg my subconsciousness to get me out of a scary decision. When I think using counter arguments, I know it is not another person. I know it is not a person who has authority over me.

"Amergin, Amergin, please get me out of this bloody mess. I beg you to show mercy on me. Why have you forsaken me? Remember that I am you. We are both Amergin. Have mercy on this Amergin hanging by nails from a cross.

By the way, how come I am hanging here in bloody dreadful pain but you are not. Can you not have pitty on me (who is also you?) Oh, sure, you are over at the Andromeda Sports Bar having a pint while watching me on the big screen telly. And for Crikey's Sake, don't you place bets on how long I stay conscious. How can you treat yourself-myself in this cold hearted way?"

Amergin

 

[Courage]

It is called witnessing. No one actually understands unless Jesus Christ puts you to a similar situation for you to understand. This way, you shall know that who is calling you.

People often ask, how do you know that it is God who is 'speaking' to you. God will confirm you who He is by identifying Himself through the arrangement of allowing you to taste the same experience, the same pain and etc. Such that you know who is calling you and who you are working for.

It a very mixed and painful feeling before you surely know that you are going to receive the insult, it is a shame to your name. It is a honorable sense. Something you don't want to face, as you can evaluate before hand what will actually happen in front of you where you will swallow all the insults you shouldn't stand.

Of course, nowaday humans never understand feeling of this kind, as humans no longer duel to protect their names these days. They learned to swallow insults as part of daily life.


Strong sense of being forsaken is part of the process called death. So he's witnessing that he's experienced a true human's death. You will experience the same when you die, together with some other mentioned characteristics, such that you'll know that 1) Jesus actually died a human's death, 2) He was raised back, such that His feeling can be written down in the scripture by His witness, 3) He did exist in history.

Everyone can witness of 3 of these, as everyone will have to die once.

 

[bob x]

It is a quotation from the opening of Psalm 22, in a mixture of Aramaic and Hebrew which was not atypical of religious speech at that time (often we find Hebrew words would be thrown into the commonly-spoken Aramaic). The Hebrew was
El-i El-i la-mah 'azab-tha-ni
God-my God-my for-what forsake-thou-me

while the Aramaic was
Eloh-i Eloh-i mah-duah sabach-tha-ni
God-my God-my what-reason forsake-thou-me

You see there is scarcely any difference; the Hebrew "why?" (for-what?) is preserved instead of the Aramaic "why?" (what-reason?) but the archaic Hebrew root is replaced by the better-known Aramaic one. Lamsa has a peculiar theory that absolutely everything in the Gospels was originally written in pure Aramaic; he is particularly unconvincing here, when his attempt to re-interpret the Hebrew word as an Aramaic word of different pronunciation and meaning makes it impossible to see it as a scriptural quote from the OT, which surely it is intended to be.

 

[Quahom1]

It is called witnessing. No one actually understands unless Jesus Christ puts you to a similar situation for you to understand. This way, you shall know that who is calling you.

People often ask, how do you know that it is God who is 'speaking' to you. God will confirm you who He is by identifying Himself through the arrangement of allowing you to taste the same experience, the same pain and etc. Such that you know who is calling you and who you are working for.

It a very mixed and painful feeling before you surely know that you are going to receive the insult, it is a shame to your name. It is a honorable sense. Something you don't want to face, as you can evaluate before hand what will actually happen in front of you where you will swallow all the insults you shouldn't stand.

Of course, nowaday humans never understand feeling of this kind, as humans no longer duel to protect their names these days. They learned to swallow insults as part of daily life.


Strong sense of being forsaken is part of the process called death. So he's witnessing that he's experienced a true human's death. You will experience the same when you die, together with some other mentioned characteristics, such that you'll know that 1) Jesus actually died a human's death, 2) He was raised back, such that His feeling can be written down in the scripture by His witness, 3) He did exist in history.

Everyone can witness of 3 of these, as everyone will have to die once.

It is not called "witnessing". It is called "proselytizing" And that ticks people off...me included.

I want to hear your view on God...not your view on how I should consider your perception of God...get it?