A spiritual person is...

[seattlegal]

Well, for me, his discussion on the topic shows non-disassociation, which is more what I was trying to display. The calmness of his response also says to me that he wasn't in shock... however this reply has made me reconsider this conclusion...

Based on your experience, did it seem almost like you were absent from the body, more as a watcher of whatever was causing the pain?

Yes.

This would also comply with what this story is supposed to depict. Perhaps you would like to describe your experience in more detail, did it relieve pain at all?

I can't say that it relieved the pain my body was experiencing, because I could see my arms shaking.

What this story depicts I can only associate with an out of body experience I had in my early teens. I had drank almost a bottle of vodka to myself, and due to the creeping effect of the drink I was not at all prepared for its effects. When I got home, I became quite sick and recall going to the bathroom to puke. My parents stood at the door watching over me, then after one episode of vomit I went to look up but I found myself looking back at myself quite pitifully from the position of my folks. I recall them asking me if I was ok, but I didn't answer, the boy on the floor mumbled in reply. Really strange experience, but based on how I discovered the story of this man - descriptions of several enlightened beings describing themselves as only 'watchers' of the actions of their body - I have always correlated it to this event in my life. He didn't feel the pain because he was not attached to his body, quite literally.

Similar?

In a way, yes. My experience was where my awareness was not limited to one location. When I realized I was in shock, I "lead" my body (from outside my body) and "followed" my body (while outside my body) while "walking" my body (inside my body, but not attached, as my body knows how to walk on its own) to a safe location where I could pass out and "pull myself together," so to speak. (literally and figuratively)

 

[Lunitik]

Here is a video which tries to explain both and more, very interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj_i7YqDwJA

 

[Lunitik]

I can't say that it relieved the pain my body was experiencing, because I could see my arms shaking.

Yes, I was clearly still very drunk on that bathroom floor too, although during this experience I was not drunk at all, I was quite clear and steady - quite contrary to the state of my body. I guess substances cannot effect the conscious only the mind, which would make sense since mind is a function of brain.

All I meant was that the pain was no longer of consequence, exactly as you describe.

In a way, yes. My experience was where my awareness was not limited to one location. When I realized I was in shock, I "lead" my body (from outside my body) and "followed" my body (while outside my body) while "walking" my body (inside my body, but not attached, as my body knows how to walk on its own) to a safe location where I could pass out and "pull myself together," so to speak. (literally and figuratively)

As with my encounter, this has a quite scary and rather awesome connotation to it. I experienced nothing like you describe inside the body as I was always at a fair distance. Would you be able to describe this in more detail? Were you trying to find what damage had been caused, or was there any particular direction to it? Was it something you saw inside the body, or only a sense that you were moving inside? I am quite intrigued!

 

[luecy7]

That's what I'm saying, any pursuit is flawed because it takes us away from this moment. In this very second eternity can be experienced, but most miss it because they are thinking about their future or past. The past is done, and the future isn't here, so what purpose is there in considering either? To request something from God is to not trust his wisdom, to not take up the opportunities he provides shows fear and thus lack of loyalty.

Not true. You have an opportunity to request from God, and it is not a lack of trust in his wisdom to do so. If you had a kid come asking your advice, or for help, is it a lack of trust in your wisdom?

It is my perception of a situation that brings me strife, its divergence from my desired outcome. Another cannot give me strife, for they cannot control my perception. It is a lack of honesty, the unwillingness to accept the actual situation and deal with it which continues strife.

If you can't drive a car solo without accepting undesired outcomes, then driving a car with others could be murder. If you have faith in others, then others can control your perception. They can deceive you.

You can overcome pain quite easily, for once you are aware of it its purpose is finished. The very fact you continue to experience the pain once you are aware of its cause proves your attachment to it. You are only refusing to let it go because you wish to protect your body. The body is impermanent, what purpose is there in clinging to it? No matter what, it will someday be necessary to depart from it. You can relieve pain by stopping attachment to the body. Of course, this is scary without meditation, for you believe you are your body.

I agree everything physical does seem impermanent. I submit that is the opposite: everything physical is ultimately permanent. History does not get re-written. There are many ways to release pain. Denial is only one of them. I don't believe that I am my body, but my body is the pen I am writing with now, and the vehicle that I'm afforded to do more with. No sense denying my responsibility with it.

This is provably false, any amount of research into things like near death experiences or out of body experiences make this undeniable. It is merely an illusion based on clinging to perception.

Serious fallacy there. You say that someone else's observation proves something for you? What is it that you think someone has researched, and proven undeniable for you? What precisely is the illusion that you think all of us lesser beings are clinging to?

 

[Lunitik]

Not true. You have an opportunity to request from God, and it is not a lack of trust in his wisdom to do so. If you had a kid come asking your advice, or for help, is it a lack of trust in your wisdom?

Not the same thing, I am not aware of what my child is experiencing. The child must communicate vocally with me because I cannot know what is going on in the childs mind. God is omnipresent and omniscient, he knows all of this.

If you can't drive a car solo without accepting undesired outcomes, then driving a car with others could be murder. If you have faith in others, then others can control your perception. They can deceive you.

Exactly, which is why I do not subscribe to any particular faith, but rather pursue those enlightened beings looking for correlations and guidance.

I agree everything physical does seem impermanent. I submit that is the opposite: everything physical is ultimately permanent. History does not get re-written. There are many ways to release pain. Denial is only one of them. I don't believe that I am my body, but my body is the pen I am writing with now, and the vehicle that I'm afforded to do more with. No sense denying my responsibility with it.

There is a permanent aspect to everything, but it is not physical - defined as consisting of particles - but rather the spiritual - defind as consisting of waves. See the video I just posted for an explanation of my wording here.

Serious fallacy there. You say that someone else's observation proves something for you? What is it that you think someone has researched, and proven undeniable for you? What precisely is the illusion that you think all of us lesser beings are clinging to?

No single individual can prove anything to me by words alone, my knowledge is based on experience and common encounters - much like myself and seattlegal are currently discussing.

 

[seattlegal]

Yes, I was clearly still very drunk on that bathroom floor too, although during this experience I was not drunk at all, I was quite clear and steady - quite contrary to the state of my body. I guess substances cannot effect the conscious only the mind, which would make sense since mind is a function of brain.

I was in childbirth labor.

All I meant was that the pain was no longer of consequence, exactly as you describe.



As with my encounter, this has a quite scary and rather awesome connotation to it. I experienced nothing like you describe inside the body as I was always at a fair distance. Would you be able to describe this in more detail? Were you trying to find what damage had been caused, or was there any particular direction to it? Was it something you saw inside the body, or only a sense that you were moving inside? I am quite intrigued!

No, my awareness wasn't limited to one perspective at a time. I could see all the nurses in the other rooms react. I could see the nurses at the nurse station saying, "we have an OP." (Occiput Posterior, but I knew this wasn't the case. I knew my son was somewhat transverse presentation instead.) I could see my doctor was delayed. I knew I needed to slow down labor until she arrived, so I had to order my own epidural. Other effects: I knew the length and weight of my son before they measured him, and told the nurses what they were as they took the measurements. I offered to trade my husband my hospital lunch (which I couldn't eat) for the hard candy mints that he didn't even know he had in his inside shirt pocket. Lots of other strange side events, as well.

 

[Lunitik]

I was in childbirth labor.

No, my awareness wasn't limited to one perspective at a time. I could see all the nurses in the other rooms react. I could see the nurses at the nurse station saying, "we have an OP." (Occiput Posterior, but I knew this wasn't the case. I knew my son was somewhat transverse presentation instead.) I could see my doctor was delayed. I knew I needed to slow down labor until she arrived, so I had to order my own epidural. Other effects: I knew the length and weight of my son before they measured him, and told the nurses what they were as they took the measurements. I offered to trade my husband my hospital lunch (which I couldn't eat) for the hard candy mints that he didn't even know he had in his inside shirt pocket. Lots of other strange side events, as well.

This didn't help much, I'm even more intrigued

My experience was very fixed, almost like I had actually entered one of my parents and only experienced from their perspective. Yours seems much more amazing!
__________________________________

Curious, had you already studied Buddhist teachings on interconnectedness (or similar teachings)? I was utterly ignorant to such things, so perhaps my consciousness simply didn't know it was unnecessary to find another body?

 

[seattlegal]

This didn't help much, I'm even more intrigued

My experience was very fixed, almost like I had actually entered one of my parents and only experienced from their perspective. Yours seems much more amazing!
__________________________________

I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Curious, had you already studied Buddhist teachings on interconnectedness (or similar teachings)? I was utterly ignorant to such things, so perhaps my consciousness simply didn't know it was unnecessary to find another body?

I had the Zen training my sen-sei snuck in with my martial arts lessons, but had not yet studied any buddhist teachings, nor had I even recognized the zen training for what it was yet.

 

[wil]

And she is seemingly aware of where to find the perfect sutra for any occasion, locate the post or thread that we are discussing instantly, and when she throws a pint of guiness across the room atcha in the old farts lounge....it leaves the schooner and travels through the air in the exact same shape slowly rotating until deservedly it hits you squarely in the face....just as she does with logic.

I'm always in awe.

 

[Lunitik]

I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Well, I mean... the cause seems traumatic and I am glad you made it through, I also imagine the experience in and of itself was very confusing.

That being said, what you encountered seems amazing - despite the way it was triggered.

I had the Zen training my sen-sei snuck in with my martial arts lessons, but had not yet studied any buddhist teachings, nor had I even recognized the zen training for what it was yet.

Hmm, so you don't think you were aware of any possibility of what you encountered happening?

 

[seattlegal]

Well, I mean... the cause seems traumatic and I am glad you made it through, I also imagine the experience in and of itself was very confusing.

Actually, I was more grounded and in control during and after the experience than I was before it.

Hmm, so you don't think you were aware of any possibility of what you encountered happening?

Not at all. I recognized I was in shock, but had no idea what a person in shock experiences until then, and had no idea what to expect.

It wasn't like postpartum depression, which I had heard about prior to it happening. When it happened, I recognized it, thought, "oh wow, it's real!" experienced it for about 30 seconds, and watched it pass and end for good. I was surprised by it, but knew what to expect, unlike the shock experience.

 

[Lunitik]

Actually, I was more grounded and in control during and after the experience than I was before it.

Hmm, I had often looked back on my experience and been curious about what it was. I suppose this is part of my interest in mystical subjects. It is good that it has effected you overall in a positive way, indirectly I think mine has too although for a long time I was sort of spooked by it.

Not at all. I recognized I was in shock, but had no idea what a person in shock experiences until then, and had no idea what to expect.

It wasn't like postpartum depression, which I had heard about prior to it happening. When it happened, I recognized it, thought, "oh wow, it's real!" experienced it for about 30 seconds, and watched it pass and end for good. I was surprised by it, but knew what to expect, unlike the shock experience.

Strange, have you looked into it directly? Read others that experienced this non-localized sort of OBE? I assume this has been a guiding light in your spiritual pursuits?

 

[Snoopy]

@Luni

Yes, I’m aware each tradition has its own set of rules. Generally, I think, people become monks expecting to remain so, and so abide by the rules of their particular tradition for their entire life.

I think abiding by rules may indeed on occasions take effort and the punishments act as warnings against transgression. If no effort was ever needed I’m not sure there would be any need for any rules.

 

[seattlegal]

Hmm, I had often looked back on my experience and been curious about what it was. I suppose this is part of my interest in mystical subjects. It is good that it has effected you overall in a positive way, indirectly I think mine has too although for a long time I was sort of spooked by it.



Strange, have you looked into it directly? Read others that experienced this non-localized sort of OBE?

I've heard about other people's accounts of OBE since then, but haven't become attached to the idea of seeking them out or anything.

I assume this has been a guiding light in your spiritual pursuits?

I don't know about it being a guiding light in my spiritual pursuits, but the experience has given me a different perspective regarding different religious ideas.

 

[Lunitik]

@Luni

Yes, I’m aware each tradition has its own set of rules. Generally, I think, people become monks expecting to remain so, and so abide by the rules of their particular tradition for their entire life.

I think abiding by rules may indeed on occasions take effort and the punishments act as warnings against transgression. If no effort was ever needed I’m not sure there would be any need for any rules.

Well, most of the famous masters generally leave the monastery to teach, and I believe this is actually an obligation in at least some branches. Perhaps some remain residents of the monasteries when they are not on missions, but there are also many stories of such people living in caves and simple dwellings after reaching their attainment.

Would Buddha have set rules that were not compliant with his current behavior, though? If they caused him suffering in trying to abide by them, I don't think they'd have been maintained.

 

[Lunitik]

I've heard about other people's accounts of OBE since then, but haven't become attached to the idea of seeking them out or anything.

I don't know about it being a guiding light in my spiritual pursuits, but the experience has given me a different perspective regarding different religious ideas.

It is starting to become creepy how much we seem to post around the same time... lol... I swear I'm not doing it on purpose

 

[seattlegal]

It is starting to become creepy how much we seem to post around the same time... lol... I swear I'm not doing it on purpose

lol.

Snoopy and Lunitik, let's have some tea.

 

[Lunitik]

lol.

Snoopy and Lunitik, let's have some tea.

Saves me getting up for some coffee

 

[Snoopy]

lol.

Snoopy and Lunitik, let's have some tea.

Gassho!


Any biscuits?

 

[seattlegal]

Gassho!


Any biscuits?

Of course