A spiritual person is...

[luecy7]

An experiment repeated thousands of times by scientists disagrees with you, but you might be right?

There are actually two experiments that observe this, what I list above is about projecting carbon 40 molecules towards a sheet with slits - when observed they react as particles and thus only are traceable in correlation to the slits. When not observed, they react more like waves, their pattern is non-predictable.

Another example is that of observing atoms, when we measure the atoms speed, it has no direct location, when we measure its location is has no direct speed. You cannot measure both at the same time.

(On clicking the article, the first example here is another test based on the same premise - I have merely chosen the largest molecule to date to comply to this finding.)

Actually, that is the science that confirms what I said. There are two ways to look at the desired way of thinking: 1. Perpetual motion (action without energy, or an endless supply of energy). 2. Perpetual measurement (detailed information without the entropy by-product). The two go together. There is an aspect in those experiments that is non-reversible in a profound way. It is like: surprise, the universe notices when something is watching it.

 

[luecy7]

Not the same thing, I am not aware of what my child is experiencing. The child must communicate vocally with me because I cannot know what is going on in the childs mind. God is omnipresent and omniscient, he knows all of this.

It is the same if you recognized yourself and your child as being a spirit.

Exactly, which is why I do not subscribe to any particular faith, but rather pursue those enlightened beings looking for correlations and guidance.

You can deny faith, you can avoid it, and you don't have to read about it to know it. Religions speak of it, even that so-called 'blessed one' in the suttra that Seattlegal provided said, "Have faith in me". Do you deny what he knew? Your pursuit is an interesting, conflicted method: pursue and seek people that you think are enlightened beings, but do not seek the relationship with God because that would be, according to you, egotistical. Perhaps that is your way of recognizing the selfishness that I am referring to. People can seek relationships for selfish reasons.

There is a permanent aspect to everything, but it is not physical - defined as consisting of particles - but rather the spiritual - defind as consisting of waves. See the video I just posted for an explanation of my wording here.

Particles and waves are not different. Particles and waves can be pushed around by spirit.

No single individual can prove anything to me by words alone, my knowledge is based on experience and common encounters - much like myself and seattlegal are currently discussing.

I'm glad to hear that, because your argument indicated otherwise. You would need to clarify specifically what you think your experience, or the experiences of others, has proven false.

 

[luecy7]

lol.

Snoopy and Lunitik, let's have some tea.

Are you tempting the sense-desires of others, promoting China B2B, or just being an image propagandist? The e-food thing has a pattern that seems to fit after awhile: e-enlightenment.

 

[seattlegal]

Are you tempting the sense-desires of others, promoting China B2B, or just being an image propagandist? The e-food thing has a pattern that seems to fit after awhile: e-enlightenment.

You want some tea as well? Perhaps some coffee?

 

[luecy7]

You want some tea as well? Perhaps some coffee?

When I am in Seattle I will accept your offer. If it is tea, I prefer a tea party. If you think I will accept a suggestive picture in place of the drink, and without your company, sorry to dissappoint you.

 

[Lunitik]

It is the same if you recognized yourself and your child as being a spirit.

It would only be the same if I could read my childs mind, read its desires and know its needs intuitively. Only then would there be no vocal communication necessary, only them would it be similar to the relationship wish an omniscient being.

You can deny faith, you can avoid it, and you don't have to read about it to know it. Religions speak of it, even that so-called 'blessed one' in the suttra that Seattlegal provided said, "Have faith in me". Do you deny what he knew? Your pursuit is an interesting, conflicted method: pursue and seek people that you think are enlightened beings, but do not seek the relationship with God because that would be, according to you, egotistical. Perhaps that is your way of recognizing the selfishness that I am referring to. People can seek relationships for selfish reasons.

Again, you do not understand me. These enlightened beings have found God, thus I read about their methods and experiences and learn from them - committing to only one is flawed because their experience is there own, as mine must be my own. I desire to meet a real life master that I can learn from directly because they would be capable of steering their instruction directly to me but the great teachers have made their lessons very generic.

Particles and waves are not different. Particles and waves can be pushed around by spirit.

Wave and spirit are the same thing, just different words for the same quality of things.

I'm glad to hear that, because your argument indicated otherwise. You would need to clarify specifically what you think your experience, or the experiences of others, has proven false.

I am not interested in proving what is false, I am interested in proving what is true. If I concerned myself with false teachings, I would be spending thousands of years deciphering them, there are only limited truths however and thus this search is much easier to pursue.

 

[luecy7]

It would only be the same if I could read my childs mind, read its desires and know its needs intuitively. Only then would there be no vocal communication necessary, only them would it be similar to the relationship wish an omniscient being.

I think the presumed omniscience is irrelevant. If you disown your brain, don't use it, or don't inquire with it, then what is there to see of you? If you are asking God for something though, then God has something to see and respond to. You claim that the mind and body is the physical thing that is not really you. You are similarly denying that you are your physical words. So our ability to see your words is very little different than God's ability to see the thoughts that you are entertaining in your brain. For example while I don't see you, I am seeing what you have presented. So you are presenting to God too, but have you asked God to help you?

Again, you do not understand me. These enlightened beings have found God, thus I read about their methods and experiences and learn from them - committing to only one is flawed because their experience is there own, as mine must be my own. I desire to meet a real life master that I can learn from directly because they would be capable of steering their instruction directly to me but the great teachers have made their lessons very generic.

This pursuit of enlightenment sounds like a sense-desire. Perhaps you could ask God to hook you up? There is probably a website somewhere for finding someone who fits the profile that you desire.

Wave and spirit are the same thing, just different words for the same quality of things.

So you are redefining the word the way your youtube video did. Waves are physical things. Another error in the video is to suggest that observation or measurement is specifically a human trait, as if it takes a human to effect the quantum entanglement or double slit experiments, because we can initiate an observation or measurement. It is little different than suggesting that causing a fire is a human trait because we can initiate a fire. There is a mystery of how things are caused to occur, but causing observation or measurement to occur is not so different.

I am not interested in proving what is false, I am interested in proving what is true. If I concerned myself with false teachings, I would be spending thousands of years deciphering them, there are only limited truths however and thus this search is much easier to pursue.

Your words were, "This is provably false, any amount of research into things like near death experiences or out of body experiences make this undeniable." By your words, you are interested in what you think can be proven false: specifically, pain. Why do you wish pain to be false? In hopes that you were not wrong? Pain is information. A desire to not have pain, is a desire to not have the information. I don't seek pain because it represents information contrary to what I hoped for, but I do value receiving the information. I don't believe there is anything false about pain, though it can be a miscommunication. I value it, but if it is information that you don't value then I guess you should stop sensing it. If information is not valuable to you, for what could be false, then a website like this on the internet might be undesired pain.

 

[Lunitik]

I think the presumed omniscience is irrelevant. If you disown your brain, don't use it, or don't inquire with it, then what is there to see of you? If you are asking God for something though, then God has something to see and respond to. You claim that the mind and body is the physical thing that is not really you. You are similarly denying that you are your physical words. So our ability to see your words is very little different than God's ability to see the thoughts that you are entertaining in your brain. For example while I don't see you, I am seeing what you have presented. So you are presenting to God too, but have you asked God to help you?

Sure, and he has answered, but it wasn't through my words but rather through my longing for him. Words are human, we attempt to shape them to form an accurate depiction of a given idea but with God this is not necessary. You can speak the language of your soul and God will understand as a perfect language. This is a barrier between two humans which does not exist with God, do you think simply asking will be understand or noticed by God? You must speak with your very being, although words might help you convey this better. If your words are empty, then God hears nothing.

This pursuit of enlightenment sounds like a sense-desire. Perhaps you could ask God to hook you up? There is probably a website somewhere for finding someone who fits the profile that you desire.

It is not a desire at all, I am aware that if I meditate this is a possible culmination but ALL desires must be dropped to arrive at the goal. Meditation has its own immediate benefits, thus a long term purpose is unnecessary.

So you are redefining the word the way your youtube video did. Waves are physical things. Another error in the video is to suggest that observation or measurement is specifically a human trait, as if it takes a human to effect the quantum entanglement or double slit experiments, because we can initiate an observation or measurement. It is little different than suggesting that causing a fire is a human trait because we can initiate a fire. There is a mystery of how things are caused to occur, but causing observation or measurement to occur is not so different.

You are aware that I do not mean waves in the ocean? Maybe you know better than esteemed physicists, I don't know. You seem to think you do...

Your words were, "This is provably false, any amount of research into things like near death experiences or out of body experiences make this undeniable." By your words, you are interested in what you think can be proven false: specifically, pain. Why do you wish pain to be false? In hopes that you were not wrong? Pain is information. A desire to not have pain, is a desire to not have the information. I don't seek pain because it represents information contrary to what I hoped for, but I do value receiving the information. I don't believe there is anything false about pain, though it can be a miscommunication. I value it, but if it is information that you don't value then I guess you should stop sensing it. If information is not valuable to you, for what could be false, then a website like this on the internet might be undesired pain.

You make entirely too many assumptions, you take a given example as a personal desire. I stated that once you have become aware of the pain, continuing feeling this sensation is not useful - in fact it can be detrimental since it will distract you often from actually doing something about it. I did not say that the information itself is not useful, how will you know something is wrong if there is no sign? Please stop putting words into my mouth.

 

[luecy7]

Sure, and he has answered, but it wasn't through my words but rather through my longing for him. Words are human, we attempt to shape them to form an accurate depiction of a given idea but with God this is not necessary. You can speak the language of your soul and God will understand as a perfect language. This is a barrier between two humans which does not exist with God, do you think simply asking will be understand or noticed by God? You must speak with your very being, although words might help you convey this better. If your words are empty, then God hears nothing.

Apply it to relationships: If you desire, long or lust after a person, do you think they should necessarily wish to spend time with you?

It is not a desire at all, I am aware that if I meditate this is a possible culmination but ALL desires must be dropped to arrive at the goal. Meditation has its own immediate benefits, thus a long term purpose is unnecessary.

You have changed the subject. You said you were looking for a master. You even used the word: you said, "I desire to meet a real life master that I can learn from directly..." It looks to me like you are in denial over your own hopes and desires.

You are aware that I do not mean waves in the ocean? Maybe you know better than esteemed physicists, I don't know. You seem to think you do...

Waves, or oscillations, are commonly described in physics: Wave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The wave in an ocean is a good example. You and your youtube website are the first that I have ever seen to refer to waves as being spirit.

You make entirely too many assumptions, you take a given example as a personal desire. I stated that once you have become aware of the pain, continuing feeling this sensation is not useful - in fact it can be detrimental since it will distract you often from actually doing something about it. I did not say that the information itself is not useful, how will you know something is wrong if there is no sign? Please stop putting words into my mouth.

Your words relative to 'prove' were, "The very fact you continue to experience the pain once you are aware of its cause proves your attachment to it.", and "This is provably false, any amount of research into things like near death experiences or out of body experiences make this undeniable." You are stating your own desires relative to pain, and pain is the information that is counter to you or your bodies programmed desire. Your stated desire relative to pain is to block it out. Why would you do this? In your words, "I stated that once you have become aware of the pain, continuing feeling this sensation is not useful - in fact it can be detrimental since it will distract you often from actually doing something about it." In your words, you view or claim that pain can be detrimental and distracting. Perhaps sometimes it is worth shutting off information, but not always. There is a conflict there between two desires. Life is full of choices.

 

[seattlegal]

When I am in Seattle I will accept your offer. If it is tea, I prefer a tea party. If you think I will accept a suggestive picture in place of the drink, and without your company, sorry to dissappoint you.

Suggestive pictures?! (lol)

 

[luecy7]

Suggestive pictures?! (lol)

Good catch.

 

[Lunitik]

Apply it to relationships: If you desire, long or lust after a person, do you think they should necessarily wish to spend time with you?

We aren't talking about people, though, so your comparison is invalid.

You have changed the subject. You said you were looking for a master. You even used the word: you said, "I desire to meet a real life master that I can learn from directly..." It looks to me like you are in denial over your own hopes and desires.

Because looking for a master requires desiring enlightenment? You make way too many assumptions, I do not even understand what exactly your point is in this conversation.

Waves, or oscillations, are commonly described in physics: Wave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The wave in an ocean is a good example. You and your youtube website are the first that I have ever seen to refer to waves as being spirit.

And yet, despite this link, you are holding on to waves being a physical thing?

Your words relative to 'prove' were, "The very fact you continue to experience the pain once you are aware of its cause proves your attachment to it.", and "This is provably false, any amount of research into things like near death experiences or out of body experiences make this undeniable." You are stating your own desires relative to pain, and pain is the information that is counter to you or your bodies programmed desire. Your stated desire relative to pain is to block it out. Why would you do this? In your words, "I stated that once you have become aware of the pain, continuing feeling this sensation is not useful - in fact it can be detrimental since it will distract you often from actually doing something about it." In your words, you view or claim that pain can be detrimental and distracting. Perhaps sometimes it is worth shutting off information, but not always. There is a conflict there between two desires. Life is full of choices.

I am curious, what are your beliefs? It might help me understand what exactly your motivation here is. If I had to guess, I would say Christian since you seem incapable of seeing anything between a given extreme.

I have not said I do not wish to feel the pain, I have said this information is valuable. What I have said is once you are aware of the issue it is no longer useful to continue feeling it. Clearly, to be aware of the injury, you have to experience the pain. You seem to be attempting to position yourself as intelligent but your arguments are idiotic.

 

[seattlegal]

And yet, despite this link, you are holding on to waves being a physical thing?

Waves require space/time, no? Is that not a temporal quality?

I am curious, what are your beliefs? It might help me understand what exactly your motivation here is. If I had to guess, I would say Christian since you seem incapable of seeing anything between a given extreme.

 

[Lunitik]

Waves require space/time, no? Is that not a temporal quality?

Well, no, in fact they are independent of space entirely. There is currently reasonable proof that says that every particle in the universe actually exists in at least three places: everywhere, nowhere and where it is perceived. As for depending on time, is time a genuine quality or simply our perception as well? Time is merely a measure of motion, it describes something for us but does it actually exist? Many people have discussed the quality of experiencing infinity in a second, these people appear to have escaped this quality of motion which we ordinarily perceive. There is also the experience with adrenaline where time itself becomes a function of mind, time will seem to slow down under certain circumstances.

In a way, I understand where luecy is going, since in actuality what is perceived as physical is itself being questioned. When we touch something, it is posited that what we perceive as solid is actually just an apposing force stopping our forward motion - it is merely a dense wave that will not permit another wave through. The illusion of solidity is merely maintained by the attraction of these waves to one another. If we were to split every atom within a given structure and take each half to opposite sides of the world, they would still react as one - manipulation of one side will automatically put into motion the other. There are many ramifications here, but essentially everything about reality is being redefined by scientists right now.

 

[Lunitik]

IE, I understand the confusion, since the lines are being blurred, but they are being blurred in the opposite direction. Rather than stating all things are actually physical, we are beginning to see that in actuality all things are waves. This is quite profound and difficult to grasp, but the more we try to disprove it the more it is seeming to be true.

 

[earl]

A spiritual person doesn't believe thoughts are what they're cracked up to be. earl

 

[seattlegal]

Well, no, in fact they are independent of space entirely.

Definition of a wave

Webster's dictionary defines a wave as "a disturbance or variation that transfers energy progressively from point to point in a medium and that may take the form of an elastic deformation or of a variation of pressure, electric or magnetic intensity, electric potential, or temperature."
The most important part of this definition is that a wave is a disturbance or variation which travels through a medium. The medium through which the wave travels may experience some local oscillations as the wave passes, but the particles in the medium to not travel with the wave. The disturbance may take any of a number of shapes, from a finite width pulse to an infinitely long sine wave.
​

A wave needs a medium to disturb. Spacetime is the medium in which matter exists. You need space to have form.

There is currently reasonable proof that says that every particle in the universe actually exists in at least three places: everywhere, nowhere and where it is perceived.

citation?

As for depending on time, is time a genuine quality or simply our perception as well? Time is merely a measure of motion, it describes something for us but does it actually exist?

The word temporal relates to things existing in time. It is related to the Buddhist concept of impermanence.

Many people have discussed the quality of experiencing infinity in a second, these people appear to have escaped this quality of motion which we ordinarily perceive. There is also the experience with adrenaline where time itself becomes a function of mind, time will seem to slow down under certain circumstances.

Indeed, time is relative to motion. The mind moves.

In a way, I understand where luecy is going, since in actuality what is perceived as physical is itself being questioned. When we touch something, it is posited that what we perceive as solid is actually just an apposing force stopping our forward motion - it is merely a dense wave that will not permit another wave through. The illusion of solidity is merely maintained by the attraction of these waves to one another. If we were to split every atom within a given structure and take each half to opposite sides of the world, they would still react as one - manipulation of one side will automatically put into motion the other. There are many ramifications here, but essentially everything about reality is being redefined by scientists right now.

Lemme see the experimental empiricle evidence for the experiment you describe. The particles would have to be entangled, and a method for producing entanglement would have to be employed.

 

[Lunitik]

Definition of a wave

Webster's dictionary defines a wave as "a disturbance or variation that transfers energy progressively from point to point in a medium and that may take the form of an elastic deformation or of a variation of pressure, electric or magnetic intensity, electric potential, or temperature."
The most important part of this definition is that a wave is a disturbance or variation which travels through a medium. The medium through which the wave travels may experience some local oscillations as the wave passes, but the particles in the medium to not travel with the wave. The disturbance may take any of a number of shapes, from a finite width pulse to an infinitely long sine wave.
​

A wave needs a medium to disturb. Spacetime is the medium in which matter exists. You need space to have form.

That's just it, is form valid or perceived? We posit certain things based on our observations, but we are sure that observing itself effects the result. If all things are waves, or purely energy, but it is necessary to have a medium to have a wave, where do they originate? What is space if waves consist everywhere?

It seems more feasible to look at it from the perspective of the Big Bang, this first reaction has constantly rendered the waves in motion reacting and setting each other in motion. Everything we perceive essentially is the reaction from a huge explosion just like an atom bomb, but it hasn't ceased expanding its energy yet. Again, it is difficult to conceive as it is so different from what we experience as a part of it, but based on findings it is fairly sound as a hypothesis.

citation?

I am actually partially wrong, a particle is demonstrably everywhere and nowhere until the wave is destroyed. Googling "quantum everywhere nowhere" returns over 3.2 million results so I will let you pick your own source.

The word temporal relates to things existing in time. It is related to the Buddhist concept of impermanence.

Indeed, time is relative to motion. The mind moves.

Agreed.

Lemme see the experimental empiricle evidence for the experiment you describe. The particles would have to be entangled, and a method for producing entanglement would have to be employed.

We are actually describing the same thing - entanglement - I guess I need to touch up on how exactly it works, apologies.

 

[seattlegal]

That's just it, is form valid or perceived? We posit certain things based on our observations, but we are sure that observing itself effects the result. If all things are waves, or purely energy, but it is necessary to have a medium to have a wave, where do they originate? What is space if waves consist everywhere?

you might want to look into space.

It seems more feasible to look at it from the perspective of the Big Bang, this first reaction has constantly rendered the waves in motion reacting and setting each other in motion. Everything we perceive essentially is the reaction from a huge explosion just like an atom bomb, but it hasn't ceased expanding its energy yet. Again, it is difficult to conceive as it is so different from what we experience as a part of it, but based on findings it is fairly sound as a hypothesis.

You might want to look into the expansion of space in regards to the Big Bang, and the metric expansion of space. The big bang is not like an explosion, as I understand the theory.

I am actually partially wrong, a particle is demonstrably everywhere and nowhere until the wave is destroyed. Googling "quantum everywhere nowhere" returns over 3.2 million results so I will let you pick your own source.

I'm not doing your homework.

We are actually describing the same thing - entanglement - I guess I need to touch up on how exactly it works, apologies.

Homework time.

 

[luecy7]

We aren't talking about people, though, so your comparison is invalid.

In our relationship with God, yes we are talking about people. Are you and I not people? As you said that you desire a master to learn more about God from, who do you suspect the master learned from? What master did the master seek? Is there a difference there between yourself and the master that you seek?

And yet, despite this link, you are holding on to waves being a physical thing?

Yes. I know a little about waves and how to make use of them.

I am curious, what are your beliefs? It might help me understand what exactly your motivation here is. If I had to guess, I would say Christian since you seem incapable of seeing anything between a given extreme.

I believe in faith, love, and honesty. I believe in trusting, forgiveness, and conscientious objection. I believe in service, patience, and communication. I believe in the golden rule, thinking, and doing. I believe in the power of God, the grace of God, and a record of all events. etc...

I have not said I do not wish to feel the pain, I have said this information is valuable. What I have said is once you are aware of the issue it is no longer useful to continue feeling it. Clearly, to be aware of the injury, you have to experience the pain. You seem to be attempting to position yourself as intelligent but your arguments are idiotic.

At least you admit to the initial value of pain. Now, your pain and suffering can be caused by yourself, by someone else, or by natural causes. Agreed? If pain and suffering is caused by someone else, then would you put an end to it? How? Do you think meditation puts an end to the pain and suffering caused by you, by someone else, or by natural causes? One approach is to claim that you just don't care, because after all you have dissociated from your mind / body and you believe it best to have no desires over your mind / body senses. There are other approaches. Notice how I am getting back to relationships? In a relationship, there may be some pain or suffering. Do your beliefs hold for pain under all circumstances, or just the pain caused by your own greed or foolishness?