A spiritual person is...

[Thomas]

For a heterosexual man to masturbate, he has to be thinking of a lady and playing with his bits at the same time.

Or money ... or a car ... or power ...

Reminds me of the story of the soldier, sailor and airman who go for psych-testing, and the shrink makes an undulating hand motion and says, 'what does that remind you of?'

The sailor says "the ocean swell as we set out from harbour ... " seems fair enough, the shrink thinks.
The airman says "the clouds, once you break through and fly above them ... " seems fair enough, the shrink thinks.
The soldier says "sex."
"Sex?" asks the shrink. "Why sex?"
The soldier shrugs. "That's all I ever think about."

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Ciel]

Lunitik..... strange name for one who is so sane and shows an exceptional quality of understanding......... and love.........

- c -

 

[luecy7]

OK, now that we have gotten away from the mind as a sex organ, let's get down to the nitty gritty.

We have?

What you are calling selfishness and "mental masturbation" is actually responsibility. You need to take responsibility for your actions and transform yourself so you can be helpful to others. You cannot transform others for them, but you can be helpful towards them in this regard by showing them metta, or loving-kindness. In order to to be able to do this effectively, you must work on transforming yourself. (Others may give you strength in this regard, but you must work on yourself.)

No. Your argument is getting a little craftier. What I call mental masturbation is using one's own mind for what pleasures themselves.

Do you see something to change, before you have experienced it? If you don't see what to change, if anything, then you won't know what to change. Meditating will not show you, what interacting with other people in relationships will. You need experience, and then you have something to decide where and whether change is needed. A mentally masturbating isolationist is blind to themselves, missing out on experience of themselves in relationships.

Ignorance is pleasing, the absence of mind activity is very relaxing. In case I look like a hypocrite: I have meditated, and I am good at it. If a person has a hyperactive mind or trouble focusing, then I would even recommend a little of it. Just recognize it as a self induced drug. You can use your mind to think about the relationships with others, or you can use it for your own pursuits.

Should a person be thinking about their actions, and be loving to others? Absolutely, in my opinion. Having experience, it is good to sort through the information to learn from it. However, it is not my opinion that would matter in your relationships, unless of course we had one. You contend, hopefully, with the character of the people that you have afforded power in your life. It is their words, and your own, their actions, and your own, that you have the choice of whether to think upon, or to be mind-numb ignorant of.

If you invalidate this point, you invalidate free-will, and invalidate loving-kindness, or metta, as well. {How can love be real if it is not freely given? If it is not real, then it is just an illusion.}

No. It is a person's choice to love other people, to be honest with others, and to have faith in others. The transformation comes from doing. Should a person lack the ability, interest, or understanding of why to do these things, that transformation comes from doing. I realize that you prefer to think, and are told apparently by some, that it comes from the mental masturbation.

Ignorance, or an inactive mind, is a drug that a person can induce themselves with, that will bring themselves a degree happiness, calm, and relaxation. If anyone seeks a selfish form of elation for themselves, then by all means, I recommend trying the form of meditation where you empty your mind and think of absolutely nothing. It is quite refreshing. Like a drug though, it is short lived. You will have to practice it again, and again, if you want that form of happiness.

I don't think this practice is isolated to any religion or country. I have met so-called Christians who believed that heaven is a self-induced lobotomy. They walked around in a blissful daze saying to other people, "I am blessed". I would say to them: I have no doubt, but are you going to be a blessing today?

 

[seattlegal]

We have?

No. Your argument is getting a little craftier. What I call mental masturbation is using one's own mind for what pleasures themselves.

Do you see something to change, before you have experienced it? If you don't see what to change, if anything, then you won't know what to change. Meditating will not show you, what interacting with other people in relationships will. You need experience, and then you have something to decide where and whether change is needed. A mentally masturbating isolationist is blind to themselves, missing out on experience of themselves in relationships.

Ignorance is pleasing, the absence of mind activity is very relaxing. In case I look like a hypocrite: I have meditated, and I am good at it. If a person has a hyperactive mind or trouble focusing, then I would even recommend a little of it. Just recognize it as a self induced drug. You can use your mind to think about the relationships with others, or you can use it for your own pursuits.

Should a person be thinking about their actions, and be loving to others? Absolutely, in my opinion. Having experience, it is good to sort through the information to learn from it. However, it is not my opinion that would matter in your relationships, unless of course we had one. You contend, hopefully, with the character of the people that you have afforded power in your life. It is their words, and your own, their actions, and your own, that you have the choice of whether to think upon, or to be mind-numb ignorant of.

No. It is a person's choice to love other people, to be honest with others, and to have faith in others. The transformation comes from doing. Should a person lack the ability, interest, or understanding of why to do these things, that transformation comes from doing. I realize that you prefer to think, and are told apparently by some, that it comes from the mental masturbation.

Ignorance, or an inactive mind, is a drug that a person can induce themselves with, that will bring themselves a degree happiness, calm, and relaxation. If anyone seeks a selfish form of elation for themselves, then by all means, I recommend trying the form of meditation where you empty your mind and think of absolutely nothing. It is quite refreshing. Like a drug though, it is short lived. You will have to practice it again, and again, if you want that form of happiness.

I don't think this practice is isolated to any religion or country. I have met so-called Christians who believed that heaven is a self-induced lobotomy. They walked around in a blissful daze saying to other people, "I am blessed". I would say to them: I have no doubt, but are you going to be a blessing today?

LOL! "Working hard in pursuit of laziness?" ROFL!

 

[luecy7]

LOL! "Working hard in pursuit of laziness?" ROFL!

Relationships do take work. So there is work a person chooses to do per their will, work a person chooses to do per another's will, or meditating to do nothing. Laziness might be there somewhere.

 

[seattlegal]

Relationships do take work. So there is work a person chooses to do per their will, work a person chooses to do per another's will, or meditating to do nothing. Laziness might be there somewhere.

Regarding ignorance and laziness:

• there is not knowing and not knowing you don't know
• there is not knowing and thinking you know
• there is not knowing and knowing you don't know
• there is knowing and not knowing you know
• there is knowing and thinking you might know
• and there is knowing and knowing you know

I'll leave it to you to discern the amounts of laziness involved in each of the above circumstances. {Because I'm lazy? }

 

[Thomas]

Reminds me about Pope Benedict's critique of a nihilistic tendency which seems to overshadow the Western interpretation of Buddhist doctrine — he called it auto etoticisme.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Saltmeister]

Lunitik..... strange name for one who is so sane and shows an exceptional quality of understanding......... and love.........

- c -

Lunitik's username is an insult to real lunatics.

 

[Lunitik]

You think I should feel bad for what I stated?

No. In the way that you prefer to think, you have transformed my words towards relationships to a community or society of individuals that you do not really know. You use the words 'we', and 'they' now. Who is the 'we' group and how many individuals of the 'we' group do you really know and permit you to speak for them? That very small fraction of friends or family is where you have relationships. Who is the 'they' group and how many individuals of that group do you really know to speak about? That very small fraction of friends or family are the only ones you can possibly know a little about their spirit, because love, faith, honesty, etc... these are individual qualities that you can choose whether to implement or not.

Giving up your self to whom: to yourself? Yes, that is selfish. I am sorry the truth hurts. If enlightenment were giving up yourself in relationships, loving others, then you would be on to something.

"We" is humans.
"They" are those which act for themselves.

You give up self to God.

 

[Lunitik]

Interesting that you admit to the selfishness sometimes, and deny it otherwise.

When you see the physical world as yourself... that would be one heck of a delusion. So in your mind you are not your body, and instead you are all of existence. You do not own and take responsibility for your own actions, so instead you pretend to own and take responsibility for all of existence.

I am afraid there are no words that can show you the hypocrisy and evil that I see in your statements. It takes only one person to play with yourself like a toy. It requires two people, at least, to do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

I have only said that selfishness when it is not aimed at the false self is not selfishness at all, but rather selflessness. I like how you twist my words conveniently to fit your own perceptions.

When you see others as separate, you must act as you wish them to act towards you. When you see them as part of the whole as you are, this becomes meaningless. You are doing what is best for the whole at all times. If you wish to call this delusional, be my guest, I have experienced the truth of this however, and if I was a cold hearted person I would say that your view is the one which is delusional. I would say this because you have accepted societal influences which tell you you are individual, you have accepted a dual mentality and built an ego to affirm it.

 

[Lunitik]

I would think when you see no false self, selfishness does not come into the pricture. What others might make of your actions is something else, tho'.

I have chosen my words for a reason, however you are correct, it would be ultimate selflessness in reality.

I think the Catholic Tradition would dispute this? I would say seeing the world as self actually robs the world of its own existential dignity — it is real as much as I am real (the world is not an extension of me) — however, if one says 'when you see yourself as part of all existence' then the implication is altered, healthily?

I would rather not touch on what the Catholic tradition has to say on the matter, I feel organized religion is more political than religious and thus have very negative feelings towards it.

We would say that is a misguided notion ... 'the pure bliss infinitely and uninterrupted' cannot be experienced until the world experiences it, that is 'infinite' and 'uninterrupted' implies not you apart from, but you with ...

I have experienced it, although you are correct, there is no notion of separation in this state. To teach others, you must return to the previous state, however for instance the story of Buddha's death shows he essentially maintained this state permanently. He chose when he would leave this earth, and he chose based on the state of his physical body and its inability to continue in this place. It is perhaps not possible to experience this condition while functioning in this world, but it is possible to return to this state whenever you wish.

The individual can experience a provisional bliss, but as the person standing next to you does not, then that bliss can only be relative and conditional, a taste of things to come ...

They can experience it, they merely choose to be ignorant of it. Being in close courters with someone experiencing this phenomena will heighten their ability to experience the same, but they still must be willing to engage it. It is quite scary for those which cling to worldly things, your mind switches off, your body seems to explode, it does away with all notions of "I" as separate. Of course, obviously my experience was not permanent, but this speaks of my own journey, there are many instances of people which have maintained this permanently.

 

[Lunitik]

Lunitik..... strange name for one who is so sane and shows an exceptional quality of understanding......... and love.........

- c -

I am not sure whether this is sarcasm or not... lol

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Lunitik,

It sounds like removing the illusion of separateness (which we all live with on a daily basis) is an important part of your belief system. I'm gald to hear that, as it is a fundamental part of my belief system too.

 

[Lunitik]

Lunitik's username is an insult to real lunatics.

lol... I have used this username in various places since I was around 12 or 13, although it makes certain aspects of what I discuss easier to write off for those who are not ready for them so it serves a valid purpose I feel.

 

[Lunitik]

Lunitik,

It sounds like removing the illusion of separateness (which we all live with on a daily basis) is an important part of your belief system. I'm gald to hear that, as it is a fundamental part of my belief system too.

I have no belief system, experimentation with various spiritual teachings have led me to a particular experience which makes it impossible to deny the truth of oneness. I hope you can experience the same, but it is important to understand that to do so you must first drop all views you currently have. Only when you have wiped them all and understood what is left completely will it happen.

I think it is easier, however, to experience if you first study certain monotheistic faiths. I think you must allow the complete love to permeate through you which they teach, but it is sort of like elementary school on the spiritual path. Then, you can venture into other paths, Tao and Buddhism are good as well as Jnana Yoga in the Hindu traditions and Hazrat Inayat Khan's writings in the Sufi tradition. This will grow your intellectual understanding of reality - this seems contradictory to Taoism since you are supposed to drop a view every day but it works. For me, when I combined the pure love of devotion and the intellectual understanding of oneness something happened. Buddhists call this kensho or satori, you come to realize that all there is is a pure love and the wall between inner and outer completely desolve, everything you look at has a glow, and you feel a complete ecstasy - it is amazing!

Without being open to various schools of thought and being interested in how they correlate rather than how they differ - or indeed concentrating on what I believe is right or wrong about what they teach - I do not believe this would be possible. Good luck!

 

[Ciel]

I am not sure whether this is sarcasm or not... lol

Lunitik.......... I promise I send you kind regards and warm wishes of support.
Your path is known to myself also. To be at one with one's self and core being in connection with truth beyond exterior mind play is love, is manifest, able to be genuine........ if you doubt, ask yourself who is the doubter.........

- c -

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Lunitik,

You said,

"I have no belief system…"

--> Really? Even if you have only one religious or philosophical belief, then you have a belief system.
　
"…experimentation with various spiritual teachings have led me to a particular experience which makes it impossible to deny the truth of oneness. I hope you can experience the same, but it is important to understand that to do so you must first drop all views you currently have."
　
--> My belief system already incorporates these things you mention, so I am well on my way to making progress along such a path.
　
"I think it is easier, however, to experience if you first study certain monotheistic faiths."
　
--> I am very much a non-monotheist, so a non-monotheistic path works just as well.
　
"This will grow your intellectual understanding of reality…"
　
--> I agee that the ‘true reality’ is something our intellectual minds cannot grasp, and we must let go of our intellectual concepts before we can make true progress.
　
"For me, when I combined the pure love of devotion and the intellectual understanding of oneness something happened. Buddhists call this kensho or satori, you come to realize that all there is is a pure love and the wall between inner and outer completely desolve, everything you look at has a glow, and you feel a complete ecstasy - it is amazing!"
　
--> It sounds like you are mainly familiar with Japanese traditions within Buddhism. Which traditions? Do you happen to speak Japanese? Yahari, gambaru shika nai deshou.

Along with devotion (I prefer the Buddhist term ‘compassion’ to ‘devotion,’ although you may have a highly devotional personality whereas I do not) and intellectual study I would add the need to start piling up a record of service to humanity. I would also add the need to meditate. These four things are the cornerstones of my belief system.
　
"Without being open to various schools of thought and being interested in how they correlate rather than how they differ…"
　
--> I have spent a lot of time studying the similarities of religions, and I am surprised how much the major religions have in common. I consider Christianity, Judiasm, Hinduism, and Buddhism to be nothing more than different versions of the same story.
　
"Good luck!"
　
--> Thank you. Fortunately, I have already taken several of the steps you suggest, and so I have already begun my journey along the path.

 

[Lunitik]

Really? Even if you have only one religious or philosophical belief, then you have a belief system.

It is not a belief system because it is not based in belief. Belief is necessary only you have no proof something is true, through experiencing this truth first hand it is unnecessary to believe further. This is the distinction I make, although I will grant that the dictionary definition of belief somewhat distorts this distinction.
　

My belief system already incorporates these things you mention, so I am well on my way to making progress along such a path.

This is great news, I hope you maintain clarity towards the destination, it is worth it
　

I am very much a non-monotheist, so a non-monotheistic path works just as well.

It seems you are more advanced than I had assumed, I will note however that even Buddhists and the like are given objects to refine their devotion, to build their love for the total, for that which is more than yourself. This is quite necessary for most people I think.
　

I agee that the ‘true reality’ is something our intellectual minds cannot grasp, and we must let go of our intellectual concepts before we can make true progress.

It can grasp, however it cannot realize. This is quite different, but right understanding is necessary to gain clarity in the goal, it serves as sort of a map towards the realization. Of course, it is entirely possible to experience without such a map, for someone had to accomplish it for there to be a map, but this is the benefit of the time we live, we can stand on the heads of those who have come before. Do not become too stubborn and independent that you refuse the knowledge of others, but when you have realized for yourself the pointers are no longer necessary to return.
　

It sounds like you are mainly familiar with Japanese traditions within Buddhism. Which traditions? Do you happen to speak Japanese?

This is false, I only speak of it within Buddhist terminology because it was through a Buddhist teaching that I reached beyond the threshold. I have studied many schools of mysticism, and many scriptures, I have not focused on anything in particular other than truth. There is a Sufi word for the same experience, for instance, but Arabic is not as easy for me to remember as these Buddhist words so I do not use that.

Along with devotion (I prefer the Buddhist term ‘compassion’ to ‘devotion,’ although you may have a highly devotional personality whereas I do not) and intellectual study I would add the need to start piling up a record of service to humanity. I would also add the need to meditate. These four things are the cornerstones of my belief system.

You have essentially listed the four main forms of Yoga:

Bhakti - devotion or compassion, more correctly the path of intense love.
Jnana - knowledge based, this is essentially what Buddha taught
Karma - not the same as the cause/effect doctrine, this is the path of service to others
Raja - this is the path of control, which meditation fits within

In the west, another form is becoming quite popular also, this is Hatha Yoga, the yoga of exercise. This can perhaps fit closely with Raja but for more active people. There are upwards of 100 more paths of yoga.

I think it is good to combine them as they fit into your life, for life is about finding balance at your core. At a certain point, however, I think one can become a distraction for another so you must give one precedence. For instance, I feel bhakti and karma can distract, for if you are giving to others you are not thinking about the devoted, similarly raja and jnana seem to disagree, for when one is gaining knowledge outwardly, they cannot gain knowledge inwardly. When you give precedence, your path becomes more clear, when there is no precedence you spread yourself more thinly.

If this works for you, however, then ignore my words!
　

I have spent a lot of time studying the similarities of religions, and I am surprised how much the major religions have in common. I consider Christianity, Judiasm, Hinduism, and Buddhism to be nothing more than different versions of the same story.

I am not sure the story is relevant, and am quite sure that the stories cause the most disagreement between the groups. Certainly, each talks about the oneness of all things, in Judaism the very name of God "Yahweh" means "I am what am", in Christianity we are told we have our existence in God and he in us, in Islam we are told "nothing exists save God", in Hinduism we need only look towards Brahman, and in Buddhism we are taught about the interconnectedness of all things. I could discuss this in more depth, further confirming this common chain, but I think it is more meaningful to discover on your own
　

Thank you. Fortunately, I have already taken several of the steps you suggest, and so I have already begun my journey along the path.

A Zen monk once said there are only two evils in the world, not starting on the path, and not completing it. Don't be evil

 

[Lunitik]

Lunitik.......... I promise I send you kind regards and warm wishes of support.
Your path is known to myself also. To be at one with one's self and core being in connection with truth beyond exterior mind play is love, is manifest, able to be genuine........ if you doubt, ask yourself who is the doubter.........

- c -

Thank you!

 

[luecy7]

Regarding ignorance and laziness:

• there is not knowing and not knowing you don't know
• there is not knowing and thinking you know
• there is not knowing and knowing you don't know
• there is knowing and not knowing you know
• there is knowing and thinking you might know
• and there is knowing and knowing you know

I'll leave it to you to discern the amounts of laziness involved in each of the above circumstances. {Because I'm lazy? }

Hence the importance of doing, rather than the pursuit of not doing, and thinking all along the way. The doing? Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.