Can a Christian also be an Aryan?

M

mojobadshah

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The Christian tradition assigns premacy to a Semitic deity in the sense that the geneology of Jesus traces back to Sem, one of the three sons of Noah, and the patriarch of the Semitic race. The other two sons Japhet and Ham being the patriarchs of the Gentiles and Hamites, respectively.

The term, Gentile, is synonymous with the term Aryan, which is in turn synonymous with the term Indo-european. The Iranians, Indians, Greeks, Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Armenian, Slavic, and Albanian people are included within the Indo-European or Aryan family of speakers.

All the aforesaid subfamilies posses a religous heritage. Among them the Iranians bear the oldest religous heritage. One very similar to Christianity in that the one God of these Aryans was a loving and ethical God in contrast to the merciless God of the Hebrew Bible.

The religous heritage of the Aryans other than that of the Irano-Aryans was paganistic and did not account for ethics as with the gods of Greco-Roman religion.

The question remains: why did these Aryans and the rest of the Irano-Aryans come to adopt a newly invented non-Aryan ethical tradition when an ethical Aryan tradition was already in existence?
 
The Christian tradition assigns premacy to a Semitic deity in the sense that the geneology of Jesus traces back to Sem, one of the three sons of Noah, and the patriarch of the Semitic race. The other two sons Japhet and Ham being the patriarchs of the Gentiles and Hamites, respectively.

You should not use mythology as the basis of what you call a Gentile or Aryan. Japhet, Sem, Ham, and Noah are mythological figures for whom there is no evidence. All non-Semites are not just Aryans, but also include Finnish, Turks, Mongols, Arctic Siberians, Native Americans (north and south), Chinese, Malays, Polynesians, New Guineans, Aboriginal Australians, South India Dravidians, and a wide diversity of Sub-Saharan Africans with more genetic variations than all non-Africans put together.

The term, Gentile, is synonymous with the term Aryan, which is in turn synonymous with the term Indo-European. The Iranians, Indians, Greeks, Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Armenian, Slavic, and Albanian people are included within the Indo-European or Aryan family of speakers.

Keep in mind the Indo-Europeans conquered and mingled genetically with non-Aryan peoples across Europe, Iran, and India. I am Celtic (Scottish with 25% Irish family lines.) However, there were already people living in the British Isles long before the arrival of the Indo-European Celts. They are grouped as the Maglamose and Monument Builders. They have excavated Irish villages some 8000 years old. The ancient ruins of Skara Brae in the Orkney Islands of Scotland, Stonehenge, Dolmen burial sites, and standing phallic stones predate the Bible mythology. The Indo-European Celts did not invade until 1800 BCE. Over the next four millennia, they interbred with the pre-Celtic non-Indo-Europeans of Britain and Ireland. Indo-European is more of a language group than a racial or ethnic entitity.

All the aforesaid subfamilies posses a religous heritage. Among them the Iranians bear the oldest religous heritage. One very similar to Christianity in that the one God of these Aryans was a loving and ethical God in contrast to the merciless God of the Hebrew Bible.

The original Indo-Europeans living north of the Black Sea had a religion of which little is known except by its evolutions in those who migrated. Those who migrated east were the Tocharians, Iranians, Medes, Parthians, Mitanni, Kurds, Pashtuns, Aryans who conquered India, and Kushans.

Those who migrated west were the Celto-Ligurians, Latins, Illyrians, Teutons, Slavs, Balts, Greeks, Hittites, Thracians, Luvians, Phrygians, Lydians, Cappadocians, and Cilicians. The group who remained in the plains of Southern Russia, and Central Asia included the Scyths, Cimmerians, Sarmations, and Iasgians.

The religous heritage of the Aryans other than that of the Irano-Aryans was paganistic and did not account for ethics as with the gods of Greco-Roman religion.

The major theme of the Indo-Europeans was Divine Trinities. An example is Iranian Zoroastrians who had a Father God, Ahura Mazda (or Ormuzd), a son of God called Mithras or Mithra (who was also the Sun God or God of Light. They had a Holy Spirit named in ancient Farsi as Spenta Maingu, which means Holy Spirit.

Celts had a Father God, Dagda with a son of Dagda called Lugh or Lieu (also a Sun God or God of Light.) Instead of a Holy Spirit, they had a female Earth Goddess called Danu, or Brigit. Her name variants here are D'Ana, Ana, Anna, and Anu. The similarity in descriptions between Danu and Tana/Diana is remarkable,) Christianity is an Indo-European Religion in every way. It has the High God the Father, Jesus the son of the Father God (also a Sun God), and a Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost. In the place of the Celtic Domnu/Danu/Brigit, Greek Gaia/Diana, and Tana or Tara in India, Romans invented Mary.

Christianity is very tenuously linked to the Jews. The first Jesus followers did not consider him a God. It was Pagan Romans and Greeks who added some Jewish names. They substituted Jesus (Yeshua) for the Irish Celtic Lugh, Gaulish Celtic Lieu, Teutonic Baldur, and the Zoroastrian Sun God, Mithras, and Greek Apollo. Christianity inherited an Indo-European Trinity which they jumbled up saying One God (which Jesus preached) but divided that so-called One God into three on the Indo-European model and a Female Earth Goddess was filled with the Virgin Mary.

The question remains: why did these Aryans and the rest of the Irano-Aryans come to adopt a newly invented non-Aryan ethical tradition when an ethical Aryan tradition was already in existence?

In the fourth Century, Jesus followers never prospered because they did not proselytize. Pagan converts already steeped in a variety of Indo-European religions, felt the need for Jesus to become a God like the Sun Gods or Sons of God of the Indo-Europeans. (There is no significance to the English words Sun and son sounding alike.)

Constantine, Emperor of a reunited Empire decided to merge all Roman subjects into a hybrid religion. Romans had already deified Jesus into a son of God, created by God by impregnating a Human Virgin, Mary. They added the Mithraic or Zoroastrian Holy Spirit / Spenta Maingu. Jesus was originally subordinate to God the Father. Later more Paganisation elevated Jesus to a full God (apotheosis). Athanasius tried to fuse this Pagan Trinity believe into a disingenuous Monotheistic God with three persons or three personalities. It never made sense but people were told that they were too stupid to understand 3+1=1, 1+3=1.which is plainly irrational. Constantine wanted to end the flurry of Civil Wars, which were weakening the Roman Empire. He called the bishops to Nicaea where he supported the Athanasian Trinitarians and outlawed all of the Arians, and Jewish followers, as well as the Pagans hoping to fuse all religions of the Empire into Catholic Christianity. He changed the Jewish Sabbath to the Indo-European Sun day, or Sunday. Sunday was the birth of the Sun God, now Jesus. In addition, the Winter Solstice Dec. 25 on old calendar was the day of Jesus (and Mithra, Lugh, Lieu, Baldur, etc.)

It was all politics as usual.

Amergin
 
The Christian tradition assigns premacy to a Semitic deity in the sense that the geneology of Jesus traces back to Sem, one of the three sons of Noah, and the patriarch of the Semitic race. The other two sons Japhet and Ham being the patriarchs of the Gentiles and Hamites, respectively.

The term, Gentile, is synonymous with the term Aryan, which is in turn synonymous with the term Indo-european. The Iranians, Indians, Greeks, Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Armenian, Slavic, and Albanian people are included within the Indo-European or Aryan family of speakers.

All the aforesaid subfamilies posses a religous heritage. Among them the Iranians bear the oldest religous heritage. One very similar to Christianity in that the one God of these Aryans was a loving and ethical God in contrast to the merciless God of the Hebrew Bible.

The religous heritage of the Aryans other than that of the Irano-Aryans was paganistic and did not account for ethics as with the gods of Greco-Roman religion.

The question remains: why did these Aryans and the rest of the Irano-Aryans come to adopt a newly invented non-Aryan ethical tradition when an ethical Aryan tradition was already in existence?
Perhaps because the Christian God gave them a look see as to what was really going on (ergo, God is a gentle and benevolent God, who wants communion with his creation - vice acting the judge towards a beligerent charge). Feel free to substitute "Christian God" with the supreme version of your choice...I think the message is the same...God wants to communicate and commune with us, on a daily/constant basis.

I know I would, if it were my children...:)

v/r

Q
 
That's true Amerigan all those people you mentioned would probably be included among the people of the mythical Japhetic race, but I guess I was thinking more in terms of the Biblical worldview which if I'm not mistaken only included the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, and the Celts (Galilee is associated withe the Celts right?) among the Gentiles. And when I was talking about the Aryans I meant it in the Indo-European sense.

I agree with you that the trinity was an Aryan idea. You mentioned the Persian trinity which included Ahuramazda, Mithra, and Anahita which does sound very similar to the Celtic trinity. I have even come across sources that claim the shamrock symbol which represents the trinity could be found on crowns of ancient Persian kings though I have yet to have seen an example. The 3 in 1 idea however brings to mind the idea of the holy heptad of Amesha Spentas which represent God's hypostasis. And it also reminds me of the processes in which Zoroaster the personification of Ahura Mazda was immaculately conceived.

However I don't think that the trinity alone is what made Christianity what it is. Christianity was really a hybrid Zoroastrian religion in that all that is good about it was derived from the good religion of the Zoroastrians. And by that I mean its ethical system but it was also a hybridization of major theological components including a loving one God, a devil, angels and demons, a judgment, heaven and hell, a messianic figure to come, and a resurrection. When it comes down to it there is more in common between Christianity and Zoroastrianism than there is with Judaism.

It must have been more than politics that drove Constantine to incorporate this Zoroastrian or Aryan ethical system into Roman government, no?
 
When religions get introduced to new peoples they mingle the two together to convert people. Christainity took over Pagan festivals to divert Pagans to a Christain viewpiont. The same thing happens in politics. The USSR acussed China of revisionism after Chairmen Moa adapted Marxism, Leninism, Communism to a Chinese way of understanding.

I still believe in an historical Jesus and I believe he preached peace and forgiveness and said most of the things he said as recorded in the Bible.

Going back to Noah, I've discovered that the area around the Sea of Galilee running down to the Dead Sea is below sea level. This area is also arrid and dry with mountains to the east and west and makes up part of the great rift valley (according to my book, The Oxford Bible Atlas) In theory if it rained and rained the run off water from the higher ground would flood the lower ground levels, so if the Jews were settled in this area at the time of the Noah story then there is a level off truth to the Noah story. The Bronze age is supposed to have ended with a sudden climate change so this could also tie in with the story of Joesph and his dream coat. Sorry to divert away from the post but I like the stories in the Bible and I'm trying to connect them to historic facts. Its like the story of Buddha, they had all this information about him, them in the 1800 they found ancient memorials that where lost confirming his life.
 
When religions get introduced to new peoples they mingle the two together to convert people. Christainity took over Pagan festivals to divert Pagans to a Christain viewpiont. The same thing happens in politics. The USSR acussed China of revisionism after Chairmen Moa adapted Marxism, Leninism, Communism to a Chinese way of understanding.

That may be true but ultimately this Christian viewpoint you speak of came from the Zoroastrians. A long line of ancient Greeks philosophers acquainted with the Zoroastrian ethical system attempted the conversion to Christianity. It was called Medism, but it was ultimately rejected by the mainstream because it was associated with their enemies at the time, the Persians. Not much is known about Mithraism, but the designation definitely implies Persian origins and many of the ancient Romans were noted to have been cultic Persians and the Persians were the main rivals of the ancient Romans. The Jews on the other hand were pro-Persian, and had definitely adopted much of the Persian ideology from their time in Babylon down to the appearance of Christianity.

I still believe in an historical Jesus and I believe he preached peace and forgiveness and said most of the things he said as recorded in the Bible.

Maybe Jesus was a historical figure maybe he wasn't. Nevertheless the ideas attributed to him which were very close to those of the Persians are used by religious institutions. No doubt the Chruches make allot of money off of these ideas. Do you also believe that Jesus carried on his seed?
 
That may be true but ultimately this Christian viewpoint you speak of came from the Zoroastrians. A long line of ancient Greeks philosophers acquainted with the Zoroastrian ethical system attempted the conversion to Christianity.

uhh... what I meant was a long line of ancient Greek philosophers acquainted with the Zoroastrianism attempted the conversion to the Zoroastrian ethical system.
 
Where are you getting your definition of this word Aryan?
Aryan is from the sanskrit referring to the followers of Vedic Culture ---that is the whole definition for the non-aryan. Aryan refers to the cultural ideals of civic society.
Aryan does not refer to a race of humans. Aryan refers to cultural norms that spread from the central fertile cresents by those stanard bearers of Ancient pre-western History of the Empire of Hastina-pura (old Delhi) in Bharata-varsa (land of Bharata).

Culture Civilisations are all the remnents of the near-disappearence of "Aryan Culture" and/or it's adversity to Aryan Culture & it's sub-sets though-out all the hills & dales of the continents.
 
Exactly. How the heck can you edit these things?

You are only allowed to edit a post for the first twenty minutes after you post, so that you do have the opportunity to look over your post and clean up typos or mismatched HTML tags etc. but are not allowed to go back, after somebody has replied to you, and change what you said.
 
Where are you getting your definition of this word Aryan?
Aryan is from the sanskrit referring to the followers of Vedic Culture ---that is the whole definition for the non-aryan. Aryan refers to the cultural ideals of civic society.
Aryan does not refer to a race of humans. Aryan refers to cultural norms that spread from the central fertile cresents by those stanard bearers of Ancient pre-western History of the Empire of Hastina-pura (old Delhi) in Bharata-varsa (land of Bharata).

When I say Aryan I am referring to the Indo-Europeans, and, yes, I agree that the Aryans were in India. However whether or not the Aryans came from India has nothing to do with my question therein being: why was it necessary that the Indo-Europeans turn to a newly invented ethical religion, Christianity, which catered to a non-Aryan tradition, when an ethical religion that catered to an Aryan tradition already existed called Zoroastrianism?
 
When religions get introduced to new peoples they mingle the two together to convert people. Christainity took over Pagan festivals to divert Pagans to a Christain viewpiont. The same thing happens in politics. The USSR acussed China of revisionism after Chairmen Moa adapted Marxism, Leninism, Communism to a Chinese way of understanding.

Aye, I have heard a story (maybe a legend) that Patrick (Padraig) was so successful in converting our Irish ancestors because he saw the power group. It was not simply the four kings. The power was with the Druids. Padraig compared Christianity to the Celtic Pantheon and even the Brehon Laws. However, the key strategy of Padraig was to offer the Druids automatic Catholic priesthood immediately if they converted. Christianity has used similar tactics in the Americas where they permitted retention of Native American gods along side of the Christian Gods.

I still believe in an historical Jesus and I believe he preached peace and forgiveness and said most of the things he said as recorded in the Bible.

I do not know for certain if Jesus was a real human being or a patchwork of Mithra, Apollo, Aten, Lugh, Baldur, and a Jewish Messiah. I lean to thinking that he was a real human being but not a god. All writings recorded decades to a century or later likely underwent some elabouration and embellishment. It was the Roman - Indo-European majority of the Roman Empire that likely spun Jesus into an Indo-European Sun God, the son of the High God. Paul, widely credited as the true founder of Christianity, did so by depicting Jesus as subordinate to God. The led to the once dominant Arian Christianity of the second and third centuries. Contrary to Paul and Arius' writings, Athanasius and Tertullian for unknown reasons elevated the Subordinate God Jesus into a fully God equal to the Father, and added a Holy Spirit similar to Spenta Maingu of Persia. Each one was a full god and each one was simultaneously the other two. It does not make sense but making sense is not an absolute prerequisite in religion. It is excused by the word "mystery."

Going back to Noah, I've discovered that the area around the Sea of Galilee running down to the Dead Sea is below sea level.

That is incorrect but understandable. Galilee was called that before Celts ever entered the region. You were thinking of Galatia in Asia Minor which was formed by a tribe of Celtic Gauls during the Wars of the Diadochi of Alexander's successors. They came from present day France and Germany. They conquered most of Europe down to Thrace. Then they crossed to Anatolia taking advantage of the civil wars there to establish the Kingdom of Galatia near the middle of Asia Minor. Galatia comes from Gauls

This area is also arrid and dry with mountains to the east and west and makes up part of the great rift valley (according to my book, The Oxford Bible Atlas) In theory if it rained and rained the run off water from the higher ground would flood the lower ground levels, so if the Jews were settled in this area at the time of the Noah story then there is a level off truth to the Noah story.

You are correct in the history of the Jordan-Dead Sea Rift Valley. A great volcanic event occurred a long distance along the rift from Syria to the present Israeli-Jordanian border near Aqaba. The second worst lava overflow since the Siberian Traps created the Golan Heights and some of the mountains east and west of the rift. So much lava erupted and spread out, the huge Magma Chamber that caused it nearly emptied. This removal of so much lava led to a fall in the Jordan Valley floor some hundreds or thousands of meters. This produced the very deep Jordan Valley and the gradual pooling of the Jordan River into the deepest part to form the Dead Sea. Evaporation produced the high salt content like the Great Salt Lake of Utah or Mono Lake in California. I have not heard your version of a great flood in Rift Valley being Noah's Flood. It is intriguing and makes sense.

The Bronze age is supposed to have ended with a sudden climate change so this could also tie in with the story of Joesph and his dream coat. Sorry to divert away from the post but I like the stories in the Bible and I'm trying to connect them to historic facts. Its like the story of Buddha, they had all this information about him, them in the 1800 they found ancient memorials that where lost confirming his life.

I have read extensively on several Biblical events that could be backed by scientific fact. I will post them next because of the size of this post.

Thanks for your info.

Amergin
 
Exodus:

Egyptian records show a pharaoh Tutmoses. He reigned 90 years followed by his son (Pepi or some say Amenhotep) who had a short reign after which Egypt was in a state of disarray, without defences. Upper Egypt was in defiant rebellion.

All of this would be compatible with the loss of the Pharaoh and his army. I would like to see more divers looking for remnants of Pharaoh’s army in the Red Sea or the Sea of Reeds (more likely a direct route from the city of Ramses site.)

In 1625 BC, the island of Santorini's volcano Thera erupted in a massive volcanic event. The area is the convergence point between four tectonic plates with subducting zones.

This huge eruption destroyed Santorini in the Aegean Sea, quakes extended for hundreds of miles and Ash was found as far away as North of the Black Sea. Mount Thera collapsed as the magma chamber collapsed. It became a gigantic crater filled with sea water. As many Americans on the west coast know this may cause Tsunamis. In addition, the land along the fault line separating the Sinai Plate from the African plate caused the many shallow lakes in the Suez region to empty. This would have created land routes for Hebrews to cross. The Book of Exodus describes Moses following a cloud and a column of fire.

The earthquake along the fault zone could have manifested as a wave of water emptying the Sea of Reeds, and shallow Suez Lakes as well as lowering the Red Sea temporarily. Then the Tsunami would come with perhaps a wave 100 feet high. If the Hebrews were following the column of Fire (on the left) from the volcano, then they crossed the Sea of Reeds to Sinai and higher ground, they reached safety. If Pharaoh’s army pursued them across the mud flats, possibly being bogged down, they then saw a Tsunami of water rushing fast over them. Science may explain one of the miracles in the Bible with facts we know now. The area is infamous for its Tectonic catastrophes. One could propose that God managed it so that the Hebrews got across just in time, but Pharaoh and his army did not.

Amergin
 
Re: Sodom and Gomorrah

Sodom and Gomorrah:

Plate Tectonics also offers the best explanation for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah by tectonic action and volcanism makes sense. There is a long north-south Transform Fault that parallels the Jordan River and present Dead Sea. This Dead Sea Fault has shifted north-south as well as up-down.

A magma cauldron under the area has periodically erupted and expelled lava along the Golan Heights (volcanic rock) and along the southern half of the fault zone. An eruption would have caused hot rock and burning brimstone (Sulphur) raining down on the two cities. There were only a few people who escaped the catastrophe. Their tales created the Bible story.

The western side of the fault slipped down because of the collapse of the underground magma chamber than had been emptied. This produced or added to the deep below sea level depression that filled with water forming the Dead Sea. With limited outlet, the Jordan River water in the depression evaporated causing a great salt like the one in Utah. Volcanic steam vents still bubble up along the Dead Sea.

Ancient people would attribute the events to divine action. Divine Catastrophes’ are attributed to God's anger at sin. They had no knowledge of Plate Tectonics.

Amergin
 
Noah's Flood:

We know that a global flood never occurred according to geological evidence. Noah's Flood was more likely a regional flood. There are three candidates for it. Two are Sumerian or Mesopotamia and the other is the Littoral of the Black Sea.

I. Mesopotamian Noah's Flood:

Scenario One- 11,000 years ago during the last Ice Age, the sea levels were low. The Persian Gulf was land locked by the (now) undersea ridge at the strait of Ormuz. It was a series of lakes in the Persian "Valley". Human settlements dotted the vast valley where agriculture could prosper. However, the Ice Age ended with rapid melting of glaciers and a hundred or more metre rise in sea levels. When the sea broke over the ridge at Ormuz, it quickly eroded the ridge producing a waterfall equal to hundreds of Victoria Falls. Sea Water flooded the wide valley that was to become the Persian Gulf. It swept up into the Euphrates-Tigris single river. Boats used for river trade were likely the Ark (cargo was often livestock.) To locals it seemed like a world flood.

Scenario Two- After the filling of the Persian Gulf, this dangerous tectonic zone, separating the Arabian and Iranian Plates had one of its worst earthquakes. It may have been a 9 point Richter quake. The water in the Gulf would have receded leaving vast mud flats. Then the water returned as a giant Tsunami many metres high raced up the empty gulf and with so much power drove up the Tigris-Euphrates Valley to as far as Kurdistan today. It would have seemed to be a world flood.

Black Sea Noah's Flood:

11,000 years ago at the end of the Last Ice Age, the area now called the Black Sea was a fresh water lake half the area of the modern Black Sea. It was fed by glacial melt from the north. The shore and littoral area was known to be populated by a settled human civilisation mainly living where today it is under water. It was fresh water because the Mediterranean Sea was separated from it by a land bridge across the Bosporus (connecting Thrace/Constantinople to Turkey. As the Med sea level rose, from melting Glaciers world wide, it reached higher than the land bridge and began spilling over into the Black Lake. Once it broke the barrier, a huge gap opened allowing thousands of square km to pour in a huge waterfall into Black Lake.

This resulted in the Black Lake turning into the Black Sea and rising a few hundred metres flooding the coastal fishing villages. This could have been another source for the mythical Noah's Flood. To the people it seemed like a world flood. It spurred major migrations of people in two directions, Europe and Central Asia (the Indo-Europeans.)

This is compared to accounts in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. I cannot use the Qur'an since I lost my only copy.

A fourth hypothesis of the Mythical World Flood was described above. This is the first time I heard this version. The Tectonic Rift Zone that exploded lava in flows hundreds of miles north to south. This massive lava flow emptied the massive magma chamber that lay under the Jordan Valley. The emptied chamber then collapsed. with the valley dropping and the slip down of the western fault boundary combined to drop the deepest part of the valley thousands of metres below sea level. If the region had been inundated by torrential rains, the valley could have been filled. People would have thought of it as a flood (of their world). The water took a long time to drop to today's Dead Sea level. My thanks to peaceandkarma who posted it above.

Amergin
 
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