seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Which would go back to this statement:
Was Babel an attempt at enforced harmony that shattered apart like a glass being shattered by a singer's note?
Harmony
- Thread starter wil
- Start date
Which would go back to this statement:
I think we are suited for harmony.... we get there eventually. We as mammals are designed to work together...tis egos that are an issue...but this has been proven capable of being overcome by individuals, and communities, therefor it can be overcome by all in time...education is one key.
And using methods like drawn and quartered, the rack, firing squads, guillotines and posion on nay-sayers is the other.
I AM The Documentary | Official Site
And using methods like drawn and quartered, the rack, firing squads, guillotines and posion on nay-sayers is the other.
I AM The Documentary | Official Site
L
Lunitik
Guest
True harmony can and will only happen when we realize there is only one goal, when more people can realize that goal through their different methods and understand the flaw in their disputes. If you have decided there are differences, you will find them, but it will be due to your own delusion. People look at faiths from an intellectual point of view, yet few faiths are intellectually sound at all. We have to understand that it is experiential and not even remotely a bases of logic or knowledge of others words - these are irrelevant other than to show the way. Once you understand, the words serve no practical purpose at all.
This goal is called variously salvation, enlightenment, nirvana, etc. Seek the goal and you will know there is no difference, only if you haven't reached the goal will you insist there is difference.
This goal is called variously salvation, enlightenment, nirvana, etc. Seek the goal and you will know there is no difference, only if you haven't reached the goal will you insist there is difference.
dis unitik lik that lunitik
Not to indicate that I am there (or even within an forseeable proximity/despite being in the midst), as prescribed by my preacher, we visit the mall to see how far we have to go....
seattlegal said:
So if people are of one mind, together in harmony, it leads to hatred and schisms?
Yes. So then by your measure, no fertilizer required?
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Babel started out by aggression--invading other territories, and they were of one mind about it. It would seem that this is not a naturally (or unnaturally) stable state, as could be seen by the results. The scattering of the people in their confusion highlighted the need for individuals to think for themselves, imo.
Dis - harmony, Dat - harmony, I really don't care...as long as we can learn to live together...
all I am say-ying is give peace a chance.
all I am say-yan is give peace a chance.
or heck, give chance a piece even...
all I am say-ying is give peace a chance.
all I am say-yan is give peace a chance.
or heck, give chance a piece even...
Think for themselves....or go within to find the truth instead of in the outer?
Babel (mbd) [Truth Unity]
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Or do you mean harmony between the inner and the outer?
{Please pardon my brain going into overdrive here}
I mean rather than being dictated by on high as what we should think or do... as in by gov'ts, priests, teachers, authority....
And rather than allowing only your thinking, mental acuity making dualistic judgments based on personal bias, selfish needs and egos....
"Out beyond the space of right doing and wrond doing there is a field, I will meet you there" Rumi
I didn't take the time to look it up but it is something like that....
and or something like not praying and shouting on the streetcorner, but go within and close the door...
the concept that we have access to more within, than without...
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Great thread ... thanks, wil! 
I have just one word or though to add, with three different spellings:
Discrimination
Discernment
Viveka
I think without this, Harmony is much more difficult, maybe impossible.
With this (quality), wil's bookshelf will look different than mine, but our
mutual Respect comes much more easily. We share a Foundation in
common as all religions and traditions acknowledge. We have and
can affirm a multiplicity [or plurality] within Unity, sometimes a
duality, trinity, etc. within Synthesis. In the realm of Ideas
it has already been established between us that a Greater
Good should dictate at least the occasional Sacrifice of
outward differences or personal preferences, and this
paves the way toward the establishment on terra
firma of just that Unified World Community which
all men & women secretly desire. Why some
should openly rebel, even proclaiming such
as impossible, undesirable or just unlikely
is owing to, on account of, a rather
active undertoe relative to the
Spiritual World(s). Seems
it's almost a symptom
of the [material]
universe, as
samsara,
although
I'd try
not to
let it
get
in
our
Way ... too much.
I have just one word or though to add, with three different spellings:
Discrimination
Discernment
Viveka
I think without this, Harmony is much more difficult, maybe impossible.
With this (quality), wil's bookshelf will look different than mine, but our
mutual Respect comes much more easily. We share a Foundation in
common as all religions and traditions acknowledge. We have and
can affirm a multiplicity [or plurality] within Unity, sometimes a
duality, trinity, etc. within Synthesis. In the realm of Ideas
it has already been established between us that a Greater
Good should dictate at least the occasional Sacrifice of
outward differences or personal preferences, and this
paves the way toward the establishment on terra
firma of just that Unified World Community which
all men & women secretly desire. Why some
should openly rebel, even proclaiming such
as impossible, undesirable or just unlikely
is owing to, on account of, a rather
active undertoe relative to the
Spiritual World(s). Seems
it's almost a symptom
of the [material]
universe, as
samsara,
although
I'd try
not to
let it
get
in
our
Way ... too much.
Namaste Luecy, thanx for the response.
But is that right? are they mutually inclusive?
But this was not what Rumi was saying was it?
beyond right doing and wrong doing....a place of one or not two...
a place of no judgement....
where there is no blame...no judgement...there is nothing to forgive...
but love is there...
that would be a location of unconditional love would it not?
I would say that truly unconditional love is evil. Love is conditional based either on what the loving person wants or views as good, and/or based on what the recipient of the love wants or views as good. I appreciate what the expression is intended to mean, but you then cast a darkness calling it a place of no judgment.
I have worked closely with a few individuals who repeatedly failed to apply judgment towards their actions, had no interest in judging their past, had little interest in seeking the approval of others, and did not take responsibility for their actions. Evil, destructive, irresponsible mayhem is how I would describe their behavior. You can call that love if you wish, but it is not a pleasure to be around it. It takes love, including judgment, to help an individual like that. A person who does not value judgment is a very unpleasant beast.
The person who provided their judgment overcame the most. It is easier for a person to judge the actions of someone else than to judge their own. Even if the judgment appears dishonest or hypocritical, it still provides a framework to work with. All you do then is relate their actions to what they express seeing in others. I cannot think of any relationship, most especially with God, that does not involve judgment, and the sharing of that judgment.
I think as you are calling for unconditional love, you are calling for love that is always conditioned by what the other person wants, rather than any self imposed conditions. The irony of that can be evil as you call for 'no judgment'. From my viewpoint, you are saying that you want a place that gives to you unconditionally what you want, and you want others to give to you unconditionally, and you may even claim to somehow be a person who gives unconditionally. I view that as a condition, because it is conditional on what the recipient wants. The right and wrong aspect is still there, but all judgment and conditions could be ignored too, and then I'd have to call it sheer evil. Judgment is something to give, and judgment is something to receive, and I am very thankful to those who do both, rather than those who do neither. I think it is wise to view judgment as a gift, even if it is hateful or unjust, it is a starting point to work with.
If unconditional love means giving to someone without judgment or condition, then who defines the love? I will still call it conditional love, because it is conditional by what the recipient, the beggar, wants. Unconditionally giving to what the beggar wants is conditional on the beggar's definition of love. Love to one person might be sex, a box of chocolates, money, a lifetime of devotion, forgiveness, grace, etc... Love is either conditional by the recipient, or by the person providing it, or if it is truly a place with zero judgment: then neither.
People often ask for what they don't need, and do not want what they truly do need. The beggar on the side of the road wants money, and money is the last thing that the beggar needs. So you do a little bit of both. Give the beggar a little of what he wants, and give the beggar a little something that he did not expect, or that he did not want, but that might actually help him. Seek the beggar's judgment, and provide him yours. The beggar judges that money is what he needs. Whether his judgment or yours, the judgment is there. Or, would you rather turn a blind eye, to a place of no judgment, and calling that a place of love?
good, evil....all points of view determined by your societal norms.
non judgment....not declaring it good...not declaring it bad...
or declaring it all good...
dog's....doesn't matter how you snap....ya get home the dog wags its tail and loves ya...
unconditional love....
non judgment....not declaring it good...not declaring it bad...
or declaring it all good...
dog's....doesn't matter how you snap....ya get home the dog wags its tail and loves ya...
unconditional love....
That is an example I didn't expect. A dog wagging its tail is love to you, and you claim to have found the dog that gives this to you unconditionally, even as you snap. Not to disappoint you, but the dog's mind is extremely conditional. It gets happy for reasons you don't even realize, and it has no idea that you snapped. If you growl like a dog though, bite it, or chase it, then it will react. Some dogs do snap, and not every dog wags its tail. You like this particular dog for a reason, so I wouldn't call it unconditional love. Your condition is that the dog has no clue or concern for your snap, and that it wags it's tail. If a dog snaps at you, will you be figuratively wagging your tail with the same interest and attention?