Harmony

i would be interested to know where you feel the view "anything is possible however not everything is probable." would end up on your bivalent scale?

I would put that in the non-believer basket. The disbeliever basket has many who are blinded by anger, pride, etc., that would naturally get in the way of developing bodhichitta. {of course, your mileage may vary}

My theory would be that disbelievers would more likely to be disturbed by religions getting along respectfully, as it would be a threat to the spread of disbelief, whereas non-believers would be more apt to say, "wow, cool!"
 
no. i'm firmly in the "against crazy cults" camp.

i think that you've got some fairly significant assumptions in your axiom, Wil, not least of which is the implied idea of an underlying unity regarding the provenance of these traditions which i don't happen to share. consequently i am not really able to see how you are coming to the conclusions that you are.

So let me get this right, you haven't read Dianetics and because you know it wouldn't change your mind one iota.

And you have some issue with peaceful dialogue. Have I said they have an underlying unity regarding provenance?

Or have I just said that if we can allow others to believe or not believe whatever they want we might get along better as a people.

What exactly do you see wrong with that?
 
I would put that in the non-believer basket. The disbeliever basket has many who are blinded by anger, pride, etc., that would naturally get in the way of developing bodhichitta. {of course, your mileage may vary}

My theory would be that disbelievers would more likely to be disturbed by religions getting along respectfully, as it would be a threat to the spread of disbelief, whereas non-believers would be more apt to say, "wow, cool!"

So ya think the disbelievers, would jump up and down and attempt to stir the soup??

"Hey you guys, what are you doing discussing?? Don't you know your prophet talks bad about your G!d and according to them you are sinners and coming back as gnat?....QUIT HUGGING, scream at each other....here have take this rock...."
 
So ya think the disbelievers, would jump up and down and attempt to stir the soup??

"Hey you guys, what are you doing discussing?? Don't you know your prophet talks bad about your G!d and according to them you are sinners and coming back as gnat?....QUIT HUGGING, scream at each other....here have take this rock...."
I dunno if they'd go THAT far. :p
Maybe they'd say, "did you guys finally put away all that god nonsense?" {No? They didn't stop believing? They MUST be up to something, then, as they are still delusional!}
 
Harmony will begin when we of each faith and each denomination decide to quit telling the others that we have the one and only corner on the truth and that the rest are going to hell. Harmony will start when we can respect others beliefs an...d their connection with Almighty, YHWH, The Allness, G!d, Allah, Krishna, The Great Spirit, and allow them to connect in their way. Harmony will begin when we can attend each others celebrations, holydays, as guests and absorb the beauty of each others beliefs. Harmony will begin when we have Lao Tsu, the Torah, the Quran, the Tao te Ching on the shelf along with the Bible, the Bahavad Gita, the Book of Mormon..... Harmony will begin when we realize that G!d is bigger than any one religion, and has had to speak to each in their language for thier ears, and for their understanding, and our beliefs are for ourselves.....and we've got plenty to work on ourcellves before we even consider telling others what mistakes they are making.

Look, I'm as ecumenical as the next guy, but even something as seemingly simple as reconciling divisions in the Christian church that relate to the validity of transubstantiation or the primacy of the bishop of Rome have proven to be monstrously difficult throughout history. The reconciliation of the Abrahamic faiths is another thing altogether--not to mention various Eastern religions you mention.

Consider a few examples.

I take it for granted that you understand that Judaism is IN THE MAIN largely concerned with the explication and observance of law with additional exegesis of that law in the form of the Talmud. What I'm about to say is in no way intended to be pejorative: Judaism is, in some fundamental way, legalistic. Now, consider for a moment that Christianity is largely informed by Saul of Tarsus, whose major contribution was the radical revision of that very same law into one short maxim. Can these two faiths be easily reconciled? What sort of revision would be required to accomplish that reconciliation? Would either group accept that revision? Would the revision even be recognizable to either group?

Consider that one of the fundamental pillars of Christianity involves Jesus dissuading a group of persons from stoning an adulteress on the basis that everyone is a sinner. Then consider that there are a number of modern instances of women being stoned for adultery under sharia law as explicitly advised in the hadiths. Without passing any sort judgement on either of these faiths, I ask you; are they reconcilable? If so, how?

Can a Christian who believes that God descended to Earth in the flesh to atone for the sins of humanity find enough common ground with a Buddhist who believes it to be self-evident that suffering in the world precludes anything like an omni-benevolent creator?

Even if all these faiths could be reconciled, should they be?

I have a feeling that adherence to any of the singular faiths would be preferable to adherence to the inevitable mish-mash of platitudes that would result from reconciliation for reconciliation's sake.

But that's just my opinion.
 
Consider that one of the fundamental pillars of Christianity involves Jesus dissuading a group of persons from stoning an adulteress on the basis that everyone is a sinner. Then consider that there are a number of modern instances of women being stoned for adultery under sharia law as explicitly advised in the hadiths. Without passing any sort judgement on either of these faiths, I ask you; are they reconcilable? If so, how?
Well in the case of Jesus, he wrote something in the ground just before saying "let the one without sin cast the first stone." I dunno if it was the portion of the law saying that BOTH the man and the woman were to be stoned, not just the woman. Where was the guilty man?

Can a Christian who believes that God descended to Earth in the flesh to atone for the sins of humanity find enough common ground with a Buddhist who believes it to be self-evident that suffering in the world precludes anything like an omni-benevolent creator?
Hey, I get along with Buddhists just fine.

Even if all these faiths could be reconciled, should they be?
Is it a matter of the faiths being reconciled, or a matter of the people being reconciled?

I have a feeling that adherence to any of the singular faiths would be preferable to adherence to the inevitable mish-mash of platitudes that would result from reconciliation for reconciliation's sake.

But that's just my opinion.
Hmm, have you read the Kalama Sutta?
 
Well in the case of Jesus, he wrote something in the ground just before saying "let the one without sin cast the first stone." I dunno if it was the portion of the law saying that BOTH the man and the woman were to be stoned, not just the woman. Where was the guilty man?

If you are suggesting that had they both been there Jesus would have commenced to stoning them both, himself, I think that might have conflicted with his apparent mission of absolving humanity of all sin. And stoning someone seems fairly out of character for Jesus. I think it's fairly apparent that the point was that humanity was neither the arbiter of morality nor the agent of justice, and not that she should be let go on a technicality. Surely, the rest of the New Testament reinforces this.

I think the entire part about the absence of the man was merely to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the pharisees, who were not interested in meting out justice but in laying a trap for Jesus, which clearly demonstrates why humanity cannot be trusted to be its own judge--it was using the law to suit its own ends rather than God's. And I don't think the implication was that humanity should try harder to serve God in administering justice but that humanity was, on the whole, fundamentally incapable of doing so. If Jesus had been interested merely in the double-standard, he wouldn't have immediately followed with "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" but something along the lines of "so where's this guy?"

Of course, I could be wrong.

Hey, I get along with Buddhists just fine.

I'm not suggesting you don't. I was talking specifically about a "harmony" that exceeds civility. I mean, as far as I know, Buddhists and Christians aren't particularly antagonistic toward one another.


Is it a matter of the faiths being reconciled, or a matter of the people being reconciled?

I think the notion that the people of various faiths have always been at each other's throats for all of history is a myth. Consider that the Ottoman empire provided a fairly enlightened rule for a number of centuries in which Christians, Muslims, and Jews were allowed to live and worship mostly as they saw fit and without major internal struggles for control of the holy land. I think, for instance, modern struggles between Israel and Palestine are a direct result of the fragmentation of the Ottoman Empire into various proxies, through which major powers antagonize one another to this day. That these modern struggles often express themselves in religious language does not mean that they are primarily religious struggles. It's been more than four hundred years since Machiavelli wrote his infamous little book and more than a century since Nietzsche famously announced that God was dead, which didn't refer to the deity Himself, but rather His function in society. Ours isn't a world populated by Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but by lawyers, laborers, and revolutionaries who mostly adopt religious affiliations to conform to nationalistic narratives.

I'm not suggesting that sincere belief is impossible, but that today it is largely either secondary or entirely false. If Islam were restricted geographically to the interior of Africa rather than the most oil-rich region of the world, I feel there would be no great "clash of civilizations." In that case, I don't even think most western persons would even know about the religion.

If your main purpose is the glorious unification of all peoples into one harmonious whole, I think that sounds like a job to which humanity is particularly unsuited. It might require God. Practical utopias have, historically, not ended well.

Of course, I could be wrong.
 
If you are suggesting that had they both been there Jesus would have commenced to stoning them both, himself, I think that might have conflicted with his apparent mission of absolving humanity of all sin. And stoning someone seems fairly out of character for Jesus. I think it's fairly apparent that the point was that humanity was neither the arbiter of morality nor the agent of justice, and not that she should be let go on a technicality. Surely, the rest of the New Testament reinforces this.

I think the entire part about the absence of the man was merely to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the pharisees, who were not interested in meting out justice but in laying a trap for Jesus, which clearly demonstrates why humanity cannot be trusted to be its own judge--it was using the law to suit its own ends rather than God's. And I don't think the implication was that humanity should try harder to serve God in administering justice but that humanity was, on the whole, fundamentally incapable of doing so. If Jesus had been interested merely in the double-standard, he wouldn't have immediately followed with "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" but something along the lines of "so where's this guy?"

Of course, I could be wrong.
Indeed, they were trying to use the law to suit their own ends--the fact that they didn't follow the guidelines of the law showcases this. The law highlights our sinful state. Jesus preached forgiveness of sins over imperfect administration of so-called justice.



I'm not suggesting you don't. I was talking specifically about a "harmony" that exceeds civility. I mean, as far as I know, Buddhists and Christians aren't particularly antagonistic toward one another.

Yeah, but we still have fun. :p




I think the notion that the people of various faiths have always been at each other's throats for all of history is a myth. Consider that the Ottoman empire provided a fairly enlightened rule for a number of centuries in which Christians, Muslims, and Jews were allowed to live and worship mostly as they saw fit and without major internal struggles for control of the holy land. I think, for instance, modern struggles between Israel and Palestine are a direct result of the fragmentation of the Ottoman Empire into various proxies, through which major powers antagonize one another to this day. That these modern struggles often express themselves in religious language does not mean that they are primarily religious struggles. It's been more than four hundred years since Machiavelli wrote his infamous little book and more than a century since Nietzsche famously announced that God was dead, which didn't refer to the deity Himself, but rather His function in society. Ours isn't a world populated by Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but by lawyers, laborers, and revolutionaries who mostly adopt religious affiliations to conform to nationalistic narratives.
I agree with you that most of the hate is political in nature, rather than religious.

I'm not suggesting that sincere belief is impossible, but that today it is largely either secondary or entirely false. If Islam were restricted geographically to the interior of Africa rather than the most oil-rich region of the world, I feel there would be no great "clash of civilizations." In that case, I don't even think most western persons would even know about the religion.
Hmmm, methinks the clashes preceeded the use of oil. However, I agree with you that the crap going on in the interior of Africa does not get enough attention.

If your main purpose is the glorious unification of all peoples into one harmonious whole, I think that sounds like a job to which humanity is particularly unsuited. It might require God. Practical utopias have, historically, not ended well.

Of course, I could be wrong.
Agreed.
 
Oh bloody hell.

seattlegal-albums-emoticons-picture89-fishslap1.gif


Yeah, but we still have fun. :p

See? :D
 
Look, I'm as ecumenical as the next guy, but even something as seemingly simple as reconciling divisions in the Christian church that relate to the validity of transubstantiation or the primacy of the bishop of Rome have proven to be monstrously difficult throughout history. The reconciliation of the Abrahamic faiths is another thing altogether--not to mention various Eastern religions you mention.
I'm simply indicating how about taking a look at each others beliefs without a jaundiced eye. And say, OK, let's agree that each of us has our beliefs...and not feel the need to denigrate one another or fight over it.
Consider a few examples.

I take it for granted that you understand that Judaism is IN THE MAIN largely concerned with the explication and observance of law with additional exegesis of that law in the form of the Talmud. What I'm about to say is in no way intended to be pejorative: Judaism is, in some fundamental way, legalistic. Now, consider for a moment that Christianity is largely informed by Saul of Tarsus, whose major contribution was the radical revision of that very same law into one short maxim. Can these two faiths be easily reconciled? What sort of revision would be required to accomplish that reconciliation? Would either group accept that revision? Would the revision even be recognizable to either group?
Nothing needs to be revised....most Jews don't even make a small attempt to follow the law, most do not have two kitchens...the orthodox, conservative, reformed, reconstructionist and renewal all have thier differences and all consider themselves Jews, and I have no issues getting along with them...tis called choice.
Consider that one of the fundamental pillars of Christianity involves Jesus dissuading a group of persons from stoning an adulteress on the basis that everyone is a sinner.
How about considering that we now know that was added, probably as a parable, and likely never happenned? That kind of acceptance of what is and what is not in our holy book, will go a long way to develop an understanding.
Then consider that there are a number of modern instances of women being stoned for adultery under sharia law as explicitly advised in the hadiths. Without passing any sort judgement on either of these faiths, I ask you; are they reconcilable? If so, how?
again, I am not asking that we reoncile, but that we find a way to get along. No, I don't agree with stoning.
Can a Christian who believes that God descended to Earth in the flesh to atone for the sins of humanity find enough common ground with a Buddhist who believes it to be self-evident that suffering in the world precludes anything like an omni-benevolent creator?
we do all the time, not all of us, but many of us.
Even if all these faiths could be reconciled, should they be?
again, I am asking that we explore, do what we do here, discuss rather than fight, find a common ground and revel in it, however small. And allow each other their beliefs.
I have a feeling that adherence to any of the singular faiths would be preferable to adherence to the inevitable mish-mash of platitudes that would result from reconciliation for reconciliation's sake.
Agree again. I am not indicating we need to remove ourselves from our faith....just the attitude that everyone needs to join us as they are wrong and we are right...and accept that they are right for THEM and we are right for US.
But that's just my opinion.
 
So let me get this right, you haven't read Dianetics and because you know it wouldn't change your mind one iota.

no. that's not right. i've read Dianetics. i've read every single bit of literature which they have ever published and the doing so has not produced a single bit of tolerance, respect or a desire to live in harmony with them. i was declared SP in 2001.

And you have some issue with peaceful dialogue. Have I said they have an underlying unity regarding provenance?

no. my questions are probing your assumptions and axioms which are, thus far, unsupported. you've not mentioned the provenance of these traditions at all one way or the other. i have inferred such from the generalized comments that you've made.

Or have I just said that if we can allow others to believe or not believe whatever they want we might get along better as a people.

What exactly do you see wrong with that?

i don't think that's what the OP is about at all. rather it seems that you make the unsupported assertion that if we merely read these other views that tolerance and respect for those views arise as a natural byproduct. that has not been my experience nor has it been the experience of most people that i've talked to. i've read many books and spoken to people that hold radically different paradigms than myself and whilst i can generate respect for sentient beings that does not equate to respect for their ideas.
 
I would put that in the non-believer basket. The disbeliever basket has many who are blinded by anger, pride, etc., that would naturally get in the way of developing bodhichitta. {of course, your mileage may vary}

My theory would be that disbelievers would more likely to be disturbed by religions getting along respectfully, as it would be a threat to the spread of disbelief, whereas non-believers would be more apt to say, "wow, cool!"

interesting. thanks for sharing your view.

on a personal note, i don't find such sliding scales to be tremendously useful as i am firmly in the disbeliever camp yet feel that i'm making progress on developing Bodhichitta...of course such things are relative :)
 
wil said:
. I am not indicating we need to remove ourselves from our faith....just the attitude that everyone needs to join us as they are wrong and we are right...and accept that they are right for THEM and we are right for US.

this is already the default Buddhist point of view regarding other valid spiritual traditions. of course invalid spiritual traditions are another matter.
in any event, the Buddha specifically teaches that beings can go for Refuge to other Spiritual Refuges (which is how the Buddha refers to religious teachings in general) and attain a great deal of progress along the path of Awakening and Liberation. indeed, the Buddha makes two main points along those lines... namely that beings in other valid spiritual refuges can Awaken and that Awakening the Liberation can take place even without a person knowing of or practicing the Buddhadharma.
 
i don't think that's what the OP is about at all. rather it seems that you make the unsupported assertion that if we merely read these other views that tolerance and respect for those views arise as a natural byproduct.

Since I wrote the OP, and the response....I can say it is what the OP is about...

But since you insist on indicating I'm missing something, please feel free to tear my OP apart, line by line, and then I can answer you without continuing to beat around the bush.
 
Since I wrote the OP, and the response....I can say it is what the OP is about...

"Harmony will begin when we have Lao Tsu, the Torah, the Quran, the Tao te Ching on the shelf along with the Bible, the Bahavad Gita, the Book of Mormon..... Harmony will begin when we realize that G!d is bigger than any one religion, and has had to speak to each in their language for thier ears, and for their understanding, and our beliefs are for ourselves.....and we've got plenty to work on ourcellves before we even consider telling others what mistakes they are making."

that's the bit i'm talking about.

But since you insist on indicating I'm missing something, please feel free to tear my OP apart, line by line, and then I can answer you without continuing to beat around the bush.
i apologize if i've been unclear in any manner. i've been asking the same question since my first post in different manners and means.

i don't realize anything about God since i'm convinced that such a being does not exist and i don't understand how reading about $cientology, for example, increases my tolerance for the views of $cientology.

you contend that "harmony" will begin with my realization about God and by having and reading books of other religious traditions. i'm asking you to explain to me how that would happen given that i read those books and have not developed the required tolerance for their views nor do i have a recognition of the underlying unity of God throughout all religious traditions (which is where i suppose that i inferred the common provenance of these traditions).
 
I suppose V, harmony will not begin with you.

But you tell me: if you took those that were exposed to multiple traditions together in a room....and those who were died in the wool, my way or the highway in an another, which room do you think would have the most harmony?
 
For harmony to exist, disharmony must exist.
 
I suppose V, harmony will not begin with you.

But you tell me: if you took those that were exposed to multiple traditions together in a room....and those who were died in the wool, my way or the highway in an another, which room do you think would have the most harmony?

*sigh*

i've asked my question in several different ways, elaborated on what i meant to be asking about and generally tried to be quite explicit.

i'll try once more.

can you please explain HOW, by what process, exposure to other ideas leads to tolerance, respect, acceptance or any other affirmative adjective that you'd care to use of those ideas?

i don't UNDERSTAND how reading other ideas equates to respect for those ideas since that is not my experience. can you explain how reading other ideas equates to respect for those ideas?

as for your scenario. i have no way of knowing which of those groups of people is more or less tolerant of differing ideas though, apparently, you do and that is after all what i'm asking you to explain to me.

i can be a my way or the highway sort of person and have respect for other views or i can be exposed to multiple traditions and not have respect for any other than mine. in fact, i cannot see any particular correlation between these ideas which is, again, why i'm asking questions.
 
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