reincarnation/rebirth question (continued)

[IowaGuy]

Hi, I'm starting this new thread from a previous rebirth thread that I originally started in the buddhist sub-forum:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/reincarnation-question-14186.html

We were getting away from buddhist views into more philosophical discusssions of rebirth so this is probably the more appropriate sub-forum.

 

[IowaGuy]

I am not aware of any such studies either.

Then I think you should retract or qualify your previous statement that "scientific testing of past-life memories has already been done many, many times." It's one thing to discuss the philosophy of rebirth; but once you start using science to back up your claim you need to present some solid evidence. Otherwise we enter that murky world of pseudoscience.

Yes, I think HHDL the 14th is the reincarnation of HHDL the 13th.

Based on which toys he chose as a young boy or do you have other evidence?

How familiar are you with probability & statistics? What confidence interval do you assign to your belief that he is the reincarnation of HHDL the 13th? Based on your probability calculations, how many toys would he have to choose to eliminate all doubt that he is indeed a reincarnation of HHDL the 13th and not just a random sample that could be predicted by probability & statistics?

　

It is a fascinating question, whether there is a higher percentage of Buddhist converts that believe in rebirth than people who were born into Buddhism. (I don't know the answer.)

My hypothesis would be that converts have a much lower percent chance of believing in rebirth since they might not have the "faith factor" working for them, and instead are coming to buddhism from a rational approach. I contend that rebirth is not a rational concept (therefore converts have a lower % belief in it than buddhist-born), but am trying to keep an open mind through this discussion.

--> A great deal. The simple idea that I will have to eventually burn off any bad karma I create has stopped me many times from doing bad things. Also, my belief in the idea of reincarnation has changed many ways in which I lead my life. If one person believes in reincarnation and another person believes this is a one-shot opportunity, it really makes a difference in how the two people conduct their lives. Simply believing in reincarnation has even changed what I see as the purpose of life, why we are here in the first place.

Sounds like it works for you and makes you a better person, which is great.

~~~
It is time for a new question for you. How about child prodigies and child geniuses? Young children who are great pianists or great violinists?......I say the only way they picked up these talents is because they put in a lot of hard work to acquire these skills in previous lifetimes, and they are merely picking up from where they left off.

If this were true, wouldn't the HHDL as a child have been teaching other monks instead of leaning buddhism himself? After all, he would have gone through 13 previous lives of meditation and would certainly have a lot of knowledge about buddhism to share. Why would he have to choose toys to prove himself, couldn't his level of knowledge be tested to prove he was the reincarnation of HHDL the 13th?

Do you think people are reborn into their same native language or are they reborn into a random language?

Do you think all humans on the planet right now are in some stage of rebirth?

Do you think Motzart (one of my favorite composers, who started writing symphonies at a young age) would qualify as a "child prodigy" whose talents you believe could only be explained by rebirth?

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Predicated upon 'persona' being the common denouminator/prime moving factor:

It is not not about people's "Souls being awarded concominant Karma".

It is about "Positions" available for birth-taking.

During any given time . . . there are only so many available Positions to take a birth in.

The positions can only be made available to eligible candidates.

There are myraids of births transpiring ---each obliged to do certain works ---work positions made animate by the Living Soul in them . . .


The next concern for the 'transmigrating soul' would be:
Does the soul learn a lesson?
Does the soul automatically or purposely choose the succession of births ---pre-planning to acquire the requisite accumen for presigoius births?

Knowing that, a] "Great responsibility is given to those that are expected to steward them properly." ---[my paraphrase of, I think, of an OT Verse];
and, b] "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" ---[Source: ???];
and, c] "The bigger they are the harder they fall" --Alfalfa of the Little rascals

We Humans, must be on-guard against losing our superior birth-right via mis-use; and contrarily, We Humans must be on-guard against losing what small gains we have acquired.

...............................
It is not about our meager "Story-of-the-karma-of-my-life" birth after birth;
it's about inheriting preferable birth(s) that are available because there will be vacancies. The Births that will one day take birth to fill future vacancies 'should' be filled by virturous deserving mindful souls destined for further sublime life.

. . . I am describing the fortunate Humans suggested in Upton Sinclair's book, "The Jungle" as striving to exist beyond the fray ---but, alas "The Jungle" was followed by WW1 & WW2 denisens striving to 'Be the Best You can be'.

. . . I am describing how vacancies are on stand-by always . . . as the stream of passer-bys march on.

It's like saying "Souls" are a "Dime-a-Dozen" whilst, Unique Births among Human Society are elite Positions meant to be pillars of Society & examples for all the world to pursue. Lastly, the Posistions are always there, yet the type of Government that the populus deserves make evolve & desolve as per the limitations of the candidate Pool allows.

There are only one Boss for each factory sweat shop.
There are only one Captain for each Shanghai cargo Ship.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

IG,
　
I do not provide proof of reincarnation. If you wish proof, you must speak to someone else.
　
You asked,
　
"If this were true, wouldn't the HHDL as a child have been teaching other monks instead of leaning buddhism himself?"
　
--> It depends on how much of his previous lives he remembered. You are assuming he has total recall of his previous lifetimes, and I see no reason to make this assumption. He may have total recall of previous lives, or only partial recall, we don’t know (and it would be a great question to ask him!) He may also have not remembered them early in this life, but started remembering them as he got older. It is said that even Buddha himself was not aware of what he would become when he was young (but this may have been a condition intentionally set up for Buddha by Buddha before he was born). Buddha was not an Avatara nor Bodhisattva (or so we are led to believe, by the idea that Buddha was born an unenlightened person) so there is no reason to assume he had total recall of all of his previous lifetimes either. HHDL (His Holiness The Dalai Lama) may or may not be an Avatara or Bodhisattva (although there people who disagree with me on this), so this would also effect his ability to remember previous lives.
　
"Do you think people are reborn into their same native language or are they reborn into a random language?"
　
--> There are two theories on this. One theory says that most people prefer to be reborn back into the same family and same culture, which makes sense to me. But there is also a theory that says people ‘move around’ into different societies and languages because it makes them more well-rounded. (I think most people stick to one family, culture, and language as much as they can. I was Japanese in my previous life, I am presently Caucasian, and the transition has been difficult.) Here are the claimed reincarnations of one person.
　

　
(from the book First Principles of Theosophy)
　
I commend this person for having chosen such an adventurous set of reincarnations!
　
"Do you think all humans on the planet right now are in some stage of rebirth?"
　
--> Yes. I do not think anyone is in their first incarnation. (Fortunately, most of us left that ‘caveman’ level of immaturity behind us a long time ago.)
　
"Do you think Motzart (one of my favorite composers, who started writing symphonies at a young age) would qualify as a "child prodigy" whose talents you believe could only be explained by rebirth?"
　
--> Definitely. Writing like that takes a lot of practice. How else could he have gotten that practice? I do believe that miracles happen, but I also believe that all miracles can be explained, including child geniuses. I often meet people who are strongly attracted to another language and culture for no good reason (like myself). When I see a person like this, I always say to myself, "Ah, a quick returnee!"

Would you describe your interest in Mozart's music as unusual? If so, I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear of your connection with his music in a previous lifetime of yours. If a world-famous pianist were to die and then be reborn, what reaction do you think he/she would have in his/her new life as soon as he/she saw a piano? Or a couple who has been happily married for 50 years, die, then 'accidentally' meet in their next lives? My dentist met his now-wife when they were 14, they hit it off unbelieveably well (especially considering how young they were), have been inseperable and happy together ever since, and been happily married for many years -- something has to explain this.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"There are only one Captain for each Shanghai cargo Ship."

--> I'm going to Shanghai this week. Zuo ba! (If you ever come to Shanghai, I have a good youth hostel I can recommend.)

 

[chakraman]

i heard karma put as cause/affect once, as opposed to cause and affect; the difference being that the latter implies the possibility for instant change free of past accumulation. also karma implies psychological evolution, as in one becomes "nicer", kinder and more humane as one learns, but is there such a thing or is there no inbetween when it comes to the light or darkness of the mind, bondage or "enlightenment" ‪KRISHNAMURTI at United Nations. part 5‬‏ - YouTube (is there psychological evolution at all?)

i tend toward believing in the idea of rebirth in some form, this maybe fear of ending personally. i assume a soul; an abiding focalised intelligence or life. it would seem possible that an "advanced" acolyte could incur a difficult life to learn "faster", which contradicts the previous paragraph i know; perhaps there is a difference between spiritual evolution and psychological?
‪Krishnamurti - Muerte y reencarnación‬‏ - YouTube (is there life after death)
Jiddu Krishnamurti Reincarnation talk What is Reincarnation, Reincarnation True?

"enter the house of death whilst you still live" then you'll know

 

[IowaGuy]

IG, I do not provide proof of reincarnation. If you wish proof, you must speak to someone else.

Could you please elaborate then on why you beleive HHDL #14 is HHDL #13 reincarnated? Again I'll ask if this could more easily be explained by probability and statistics.

What do you think about the psycological concept of self-fulfilling prophecy?

"Do you think people are reborn into their same native language or are they reborn into a random language?"

--> There are two theories on this. One theory says that most people prefer to be reborn back into the same family and same culture, which makes sense to me. But there is also a theory that says people ‘move around’ into different societies and languages because it makes them more well-rounded.

If rebirth into other cultures sometimes occurs, and people could carry memories of previous lives (such that the Dalai Lama could accurately choose the toys of his predecessor), wouldn't some kids, without having been exposed to another language/culture in their present life, be able to speak or understand a foreign language fluently?

And I'm not talking about the "speaking in tongues" that folks used to do in my Southern Baptist church

"Do you think Motzart (one of my favorite composers, who started writing symphonies at a young age) would qualify as a "child prodigy" whose talents you believe could only be explained by rebirth?"
　
--> Definitely. Writing like that takes a lot of practice. How else could he have gotten that practice? I do believe that miracles happen, but I also believe that all miracles can be explained, including child geniuses.

I also believe all miracles can be explained, but by science and reason not by rebirth, God, aliens, astrology, etc. Motzart can most simply be explained (Occam's razor) by the fact that his dad was an accomplished musician and composer of his own right and pushed his son very hard starting at the age of 3. Motzart Jr had musical genetics along with a good coach and an incredible amount of practice that allowed him to excel in his field. Similar to the Tiger Woods or Andre Agassi stories of young "prodigies." Reference the 10,000 hour rule from "Outliers: the Story of Success."

Or a couple who has been happily married for 50 years, die, then 'accidentally' meet in their next lives? My dentist met his now-wife when they were 14, they hit it off unbelieveably well (especially considering how young they were), have been inseperable and happy together ever since, and been happily married for many years -- something has to explain this.

Probability and statistics explains this quite easily without need for the supernatural.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

IG,

Yes, I think HHDL 14's choosing of HHDL 13's toys is a good reason to think 14 is a reincarnation of 13, and that's a good enough reason for me. Yes, it can be explained by probability and statistics.

I do not think self-fulfilling prophecy was a factor here.

Most people forget languages to some degree during the transition (time between incarnations), but yes, some people have an uncanny ability to remember or re-learn the language of a previous incarnation. I am an example. Japanese people are always amazed by my ability to speak Japanese. Yes, I used to live in Japan in this incarnation, but I know people who have lived in Japan longer than I, yet are terrible at speaking Japanese. (I was told by a great psychic that I didn't 'learn' Japanese in this lifetime as much as I 'remembered' it, which makes sense to me.) I now live in China and have lived here for years, but my Chinese language ability is still terrible. If I remember correctly, that web site on children with reincarnation memories has examples of young children spontaneously speaking another language. Most people do not remember their previous incarnations, this is a good thing, and the day will come when we do remember our previous lifetimes.

"Probability and statistics explains this quite easily without need for the supernatural."

--> I am glad your belief system works for you. I encourage you to follow your beliefs and ideas.

 

[IowaGuy]

IG, I am glad your belief system works for you. I encourage you to follow your beliefs and ideas.

Hi Nick, I am glad your belief system works for you as well. I really appreciate you sharing your views with me. Even though you & I don't see eye-to-eye on rebirth one thing I think we agree on from our previous discussions is that there is no "right or wrong" religion or belief system. If your belief system makes you a better person and makes the world a better place, that's a good thing.

I admire your tenacity in learning a couple of Asian languages. I have a Minor in Spanish, and spent one year in Mexico and two months in Venezuela in total immersion trying to improve my Spanish. Based on my experience, I think the best way to learn a foreign language is having a girlfriend/boyfriend that doesn't speak English!

My roomate in college was studying Japanese and kept reminding me how much more difficult it is to learn a foreign language that is not latin-based. I actually took 2 semesters of French while in Mexico; it was was very interesting trying to learn another foreign language (French) via a foreign language (Spanish), in some ways I think it was easier. As Japanese is your stronger language, have you ever tried learning Mandarin through a Japanese-speaking teacher?

I think living in a foreign country and speaking a 2nd (or 3rd) language is an incredible eye-opener. It has certainly changed my perspective on the world (as I'm sure it has for you). In particular seeing the Caracas and Mexico City slums (barrios) is something I will never forget. Now when I catch myself complaining about something trivial, I stop to remind myself how blessed I am in life.

I traveled solo through Hong Kong and Thailand a few years ago and have never felt so helpless as I did when buying food from the street vendors (delicious!) and basically opening up my wallet and letting them take the correct amount of payment for my food as I couldn't even read how much my food cost let alone what I was about to eat! Big fun!

I really dig Mark Twain's quote on travel:

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness."
- Mark Twain (1835-1910)

Best of luck in your life journey,
Iowa Guy

 

[Nick the Pilot]

IG,

Glad to hear you had fun in Hong Kong and Thailand. It sounds dangerous to open up your wallet and let them take what they want! It's better to use a calculator and let them type in the number of the purchase on the keyboard (if you happen to be carrying a calculator!) Many stores and shops have a calculator, so this usually works out well.

Living in Japan taught me that the American way is not always the right way -- something I had not really thought about until I got out of the US. Yes, it's crucial that people get out of their home countries and see how the rest of the world lives. (Most of the people I went to high school with barely got out of the state, let alone out of the country!)

Doing these kinds of things helps people become more open-minded. And becoming more open-minded is what this forum is all about.

 

[clothbottom1]

Reincarnation is a very big topic to discuss.. some believe and some not. but I've heard some stories about reincarnation and people actually remember things from their past life and those are quite accurate some time so its a ver rare to find if its true or not but I really believe in this.. Thanks

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Another child prodigy story

For 12-year old astrophysics prodigy, the sky?s the limit | The Lookout - Yahoo! News

In some ways, Jacob Barnett is just like any other 12-year-old kid. He plays Guitar Hero, shoots hoops with his friends, and has a platonic girlfriend.

But in other ways, he's a little different. Jake, who has an IQ of 170, began solving 5,000-piece jigsaw puzzles at the age of 3, not long after he'd been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, a mild form of autism. A few years later, he taught himself calculus, algebra, and geometry in two weeks. By 8, he had left high school, and is currently taking college-level advanced astrophysics classes—while tutoring his older classmates. And he's being recruited for a paid researcher job by Indiana University.

Now, he's at work on a theory that challenges the Big Bang—the prevailing explanation among scientists for how the universe came about. It's not clear how developed it is, but experts say he's asking the right questions.

"The theory that he's working on involves several of the toughest problems in astrophysics and theoretical physics," Scott Tremaine of Princeton University's Institute for Advanced Studies—where Einstein (pictured) himself worked—wrote in an email to Jake's family. "Anyone who solves these will be in line for a Nobel Prize."

Here you can watch Jake question some of the key elements of Albert Einstein's theories on quantum physics: <video included>

It's not clear where Jake got his gifts from. <Boldface added by Theosopical Forum.> "Whenever I try talking about math with anyone in my family," he told the Indianapolis Star, "they just stare blankly."

But his parents encouraged his interests from the start. Once, they took him to the planetarium at Butler University. "We were in the crowd, just sitting, listening to this guy ask the crowd if anyone knew why the moons going around Mars were potato-shaped and not round," Jake's mother, Kristine Barnett, told the Star. "Jacob raised his hand and said, 'Excuse me, but what are the sizes of the moons around Mars?' "

After the lecturer answered, said Kristine, "Jacob looked at him and said the gravity of the planet ... is so large that (the moon's) gravity would not be able to pull it into a round shape."

"That entire building ... everyone was just looking at him, like, 'Who is this 3-year-old?'"

~~~

(Nick the Pilot: I wouldn't be surprised if Jacob was Einstein himself reincarnated.)

 

[taijasi]

I know of someone who recalls about 7 prior incarnations ... with some memories and details from several others. This goes back about 3000 years, but admittedly some of the fragments may be from much earlier.

In other cases, I know where this same person's memories and past lives intersect with others - even dozens of others - varying across these 7 lives. And here, I'm talking about direct connections, with direct, clear and often shared memories ... and people who are mostly living today (in their present lifetime, umm, obviously).

Indirectly, this already creates a web of many hundreds, or more like, thousands of individuals, although the number of souls we're talking about, is no more than perhaps two or three dozen. Interestingly, they can all be tied back into this original person I mention ... although imho, this person is really just an ordinary joe.

Still, it makes for kind of a neat contemplation sometimes ...

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi Andrew,

Hao jiu bu qian! (That's Chinese for long time no see!) The fact that some people can remember previous incarnations (myself included) adds weight to the idea that reincarnation happens. Another thing is the way some people are unexplainably drawn to a certain place or culture. In this life I am caucasian and I grew up Catholic, but when I visited Japan and visited a large Buddhist temple there, I had a strong feeling of, "home at last!" I later found out I had previously incarnated as a Buddhist monk, so now it makes sense that I would feel so unexplainably comfortable visiting a Buddhist temple -- something so against my Catholic upbringing.

 

[donnann]

Hi Andrew,

Hao jiu bu qian! (That's Chinese for long time no see!) The fact that some people can remember previous incarnations (myself included) adds weight to the idea that reincarnation happens. Another thing is the way some people are unexplainably drawn to a certain place or culture. In this life I am caucasian and I grew up Catholic, but when I visited Japan and visited a large Buddhist temple there, I had a strong feeling of, "home at last!" I later found out I had previously incarnated as a Buddhist monk, so now it makes sense that I would feel so unexplainably comfortable visiting a Buddhist temple -- something so against my Catholic upbringing.

If you feel that you belong as a buddhist then more power to you. There are some who feel they are at home being a catholic as well and more power to them. Please do not take offense but I believe in a religious sense of the word your misusing the term incarnation. An incarnation is a heavenly being that has obtained a human body, sent into the human community for some purpose but has a body soul and spirit that exists within its human body and eventually will return to where it came from when whatever the incarnated beings purpose for coming here is complete. The prehuman sealed within the human body is not separate from its heavenly spirit soul and body but its sealed away and there is what they call a shroud like when a reincarnated being knows they have lived before in another life here. This shroud limits remembering the preincarnated life until its lifted. Its the same for reincarnated.

Believe it or not the catholic church has a lot of knowledge, the information you obtain as a buddhist
the catholic church has as well but I believe if you feel more comfortable as a buddhist that is where you should be

 

[donnann]

I know of someone who recalls about 7 prior incarnations ... with some memories and details from several others. This goes back about 3000 years, but admittedly some of the fragments may be from much earlier.

In other cases, I know where this same person's memories and past lives intersect with others - even dozens of others - varying across these 7 lives. And here, I'm talking about direct connections, with direct, clear and often shared memories ... and people who are mostly living today (in their present lifetime, umm, obviously).

Indirectly, this already creates a web of many hundreds, or more like, thousands of individuals, although the number of souls we're talking about, is no more than perhaps two or three dozen. Interestingly, they can all be tied back into this original person I mention ... although imho, this person is really just an ordinary joe.

Still, it makes for kind of a neat contemplation sometimes ...

Thats actually pretty cool and definately not out of the realm of possiabilityl

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Here's an unsually fascinating example of someone reincarnating, and picking up right where he left off. (The web page even has a video clip of the little guy.)

~~~

The 'cute' but 'eerie' 4-year-old Evangelical preacher - The Week

Kanon Tipton is a third-generation Pentecostal preacher who can bring worshipers to their feet with calls for a "red-hot revival." He's also a YouTube sensation whose fiery sermons have been viewed more than 4 million times online. His age, all of 4-years-old, might have something to do with that. The "world's youngest preacher," as admirers call him, first toddled up to the pulpit at 21 months, when he took the microphone from his grandfather and launched into a baby babble sermon. His father, Damon Tipton, calls his son's sermonizing a "phenomenon" (See a Today show report below). "Of course, he is mimicking," the elder Tipton concedes, "but I do feel like the hand of God is on him in a special way."

(cont.)

 

[donnann]

Here's an unsually fascinating example of someone reincarnating, and picking up right where he left off. (The web page even has a video clip of the little guy.)

~~~

The 'cute' but 'eerie' 4-year-old Evangelical preacher - The Week

Kanon Tipton is a third-generation Pentecostal preacher who can bring worshipers to their feet with calls for a "red-hot revival." He's also a YouTube sensation whose fiery sermons have been viewed more than 4 million times online. His age, all of 4-years-old, might have something to do with that. The "world's youngest preacher," as admirers call him, first toddled up to the pulpit at 21 months, when he took the microphone from his grandfather and launched into a baby babble sermon. His father, Damon Tipton, calls his son's sermonizing a "phenomenon" (See a Today show report below). "Of course, he is mimicking," the elder Tipton concedes, "but I do feel like the hand of God is on him in a special way."

(cont.)

Thats cute but what is he preaching about?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Donna,

I don't know, I didn't listen that closely.

I just watched the film Birth with Nicole Kidman and Lauren Bacall, about a man who dies and is reborn. The man in his new incarantion is now a ten-year-old boy who finds his wife from his previous incarnation. It turns into a huge mess. This is a perfect example of why we should not remember our previous lives until we are ready to handle it.

 

[donnann]

Donna,

I don't know, I didn't listen that closely.

I just watched the film Birth with Nicole Kidman and Lauren Bacall, about a man who dies and is reborn. The man in his new incarantion is now a ten-year-old boy who finds his wife from his previous incarnation. It turns into a huge mess. This is a perfect example of why we should not remember our previous lives until we are ready to handle it.

Well when you die and your body is brought back it starts at newborn and progresses from there. So say that happened say I dont know lets pic a number that would make the person 15