Divine Intervention v. Divine Inspiration

[wil]

Divine Intervention v. Divine Inspiration

is it just me, or is there a difference here?


As I see it the Divine has a hand in EVERYTHING.

Not that heavy a hand, but is there.

So I see most as inspired.

In my level of understanding of all that is, I often do not understand how or where at the moment or even years later....but often, I can see the good in what I once perceived as bad.

But Divine Intervention, way to heavy a hand for me to imagine.

In a lot of ways I see the bible inspired by G!d, but written by man. This is akin to me to speaking quantum physics to a three year old and having them use crayons to carry save the knowledge for the next 2,000 years and despite having new information, refusing to go back and correct it.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Would you say the Bible is not more divinely inspired than, say, Darwin's book, On the Origin of Species?

 

[bananabrain]

In a lot of ways I see the bible inspired by G!d, but written by man. This is akin to me to speaking quantum physics to a three year old and having them use crayons to carry save the knowledge for the next 2,000 years and despite having new information, refusing to go back and correct it.

this is rather like the way we see it ("quantum physics to a three year old") except that of course we also developed new ways of communicating to go back and understand in ever greater depths; "the Torah speaks in human language" - how could it do anything else if we are to understand it; but we are not obliged to keep the crayons.

i've got no problem with darwin's origin of species being Divinely Inspired; after all, so is everything, ultimately, if you break it down enough.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[wil]

Would you say the Bible is not more divinely inspired than, say, Darwin's book, On the Origin of Species?

Surely. G!ds hand was involved in evolution as well. And Darwin's book contains at least as many mistakes and wrong turns...as it was still a human trying to understand and explain creation.

I firmly believe no matter what human or group of humans writes whatever complete understanding of the day....give it 100, 500 or 2,000 years and the future will have a good chuckle as to our inconceivable lack of understanding.

this is rather like the way we see it ("quantum physics to a three year old") except that of course we also developed new ways of communicating to go back and understand in ever greater depths; "the Torah speaks in human language" - how could it do anything else if we are to understand it; but we are not obliged to keep the crayons.

Yes, the reading of the stories, the mysticism contained, the understanding of the times and colloquialisms contained, the morals, the relation from their experiences and lives to ours....tons of value in the books....my number one go to source for inspiration and understanding of modern day situations....

 

[IowaGuy]

In a lot of ways I see the bible inspired by G!d, but written by man.

If you think the bible is inspired by G!d but written by man, how about these writings?

1.) Book of Mormon

2.) First Principles of Theosophy

3.) Popol Vuh

4.) The God Delusion (Richard Dawkins)

5.) Bhagavad Gita

6.) Walden (Thoreau)

Do you think any of these works had more/less divine inspiration/intervention than the bible?

 

[radarmark]

IG, you do know how to load a question. Okay, let us be truthful. The BG bothers me because Krishna says Arjuna bears no responsibility for whom he slays. BOM bothers me because (at least her in the USA) every time ther is a reprinting with an alledged change or correction, the old version disapperas from library shelves. First Principles because Krishnamurti turned his back on the title. Popol Vuh (or what limited texts in English I have read) seems innocuous and could be valid. Ditto for Thoreau. Accepting Dawkins as divinely inspired is a pretty big OOPS!

Were they divinely inspired? First Principle, Thoreau, and Dawkins do not claim to be. I have my doubts about BOM and BG. Guess that leaves me withthe Popol Vuh out of that list.

Pax et amor vincunt omnia. radarmark

 

[IowaGuy]

IG, you do know how to load a question.... Accepting Dawkins as divinely inspired is a pretty big OOPS!

Well, Wil did state that "the Divine has a hand in EVERYTHING" (his emphasis not mine) so just trying to clarify...

 

[wil]

And I say why not? Ya gotta break eggs to make an omellette... All is good, G!d is in everything...no exceptions.

Ya got football teams with preachers in the lockerroom as if G!d takes side, and in warzones, one side praying to G!d, another to YHWH, another to Allah.....Do you think G!d takes sides....or deny that G!d is there in war?

So whether it is war, abuse, football, omellettes or Dawkins....G!d is there.


Not intervening, inspiring.

 

[radarmark]

IG and wil. I did not mean to offend. What I meant is that if one accepts Dawkins as divinely inspired, then the Divine is either (1) proving that it does not exist or (2) is having a rather RAW (Robert Anton Wilson) moment.

For those of you who not know who raw is, he co-wrote "The Illuminatus Trilogy" and several other equally self-referencing, logically-inconsistent, and absolutely hilarious parodies (as well as 10 or 15 obscure but insightful non-fiction works).

So, from a higher, wil-ian viewpoint, I like it! The Divine parody of the Divine inspiring Dawkins' rant directed at the Divine. Works for me!

Pax et amor vincunt omnia. radarmark

 

[IowaGuy]

IG and wil. I did not mean to offend.

I don't believe in divine intervention so no offense taken on my part

I spent some time planting seeds in my vegetable garden this morning since it was such a beautiful sunrise and the cardinals, wrens, and brown thrashers were really singing. Divine inspiration from a pantheist point of view

 

[donnann]

There is divine intervention. I am a universalist. I believe there is life on other planets and that each inhabited planet has had divine beings incarnate into thier body for the purpose of salvation. I believe that the planet earth was created last because the earthly kingdom was created in reverse order as a mirror image of the divine kingdom. This planet is center. The divine kingdom is much bigger and made up of more light and like each planet here each divine sphere has life on it that is simular to the life on a planet in the earthly kingdom. So I do believe in divine intervention but in a universal sense of the word.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Well, Wil did state that "the Divine has a hand in EVERYTHING" (his emphasis not mine) so just trying to clarify...

It is written:
"To whom great things are given; great things are expected."

Jesu Christo advised:
"Our father who art in Heaven, Holy is thy name . . . " [Jesus's emphasis not mine]

Beyond this explicit qualification . . . why is not all emphasis placed on the recitation of God's Holy Name, in contrast with intellectual musings, to be considered the Gold-Standard for reflective spiritual meditation?

Hari bol,
Bhaktajan

 

[donnann]

The books , all of them here on earth are all written with the same language. Do you interpret the words and phrases to mean what you associate those words with or do you put on a divine mind and interpret them correctly. I call the correct interpretation the song of moses. These are holy books. The problems in the world associated with religion are always tied to misinterpretion of those books. An example the removal of a head doesnt mean to actually harm someone and kill them. In the holy books it means to remove the old way of thinking and put on a new mind, a divine mind. You have to think like a divine being to realize the words mean the opposite of what you think they do.

 

[IowaGuy]

So whether it is war, abuse, football, omellettes or Dawkins....G!d is there. Not intervening, inspiring.

Thanks for sharing your views, I enjoy learning how other folks view the world, especially folks like yourself that don't fit into a particular religious box. To answer your question I don't believe in a G!d that would take sides in a war. I don't see any evidence of G!d at all in a war scenario.

How do atrocities such as the Holocaust, Oslo terror shooting, etc fit into your divine inspiration viewpoint? If you believe wars can have divine inspiration, are all the world's atrocities inspired by G!d? Do you view G!d as purely neutral if he applies as much to the writing of the bible as to the killing of Jews? Do you think G!d has any divine intervention capabilities at all?

What is the real difference between your viewpoint of G!d's divine inspiration of EVERYTHING and an atheists viewpoint of no divine inspiration at all?

 

[Bhaktajan II]

divine inspiration of EVERYTHING

The good, bad and the Ugly ---for the introspective mind, all have lessons to learn from.

But what is the goal, upon which 'inspirations' brings us closer to?

The lessons burn into the soul ---so that they are never forgotten.

But 99% of the repeatedly re-born souls (in samsara) ALWAYS FORGET!

The lessons are right under their noses ---yet they forget.

When "forgetting" it is infamously the best time to engage in libations and sensual pursuits.

While the war & famine & natural catastrophies rage on ---let's do to the Disco!

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Why so much evil in the world? Here is a quote from Annie Besant saying that we must freely choose to be good, and at the next level of existence only good people will be allowed in. We must allow people here at this level to be good or bad, so they can make that choice freely:

"And then the question arises - as I know it arises in many minds, for it has been put to me both in the East and in the West over and over again - why so much difficulty in the evolution, why so much apparent failure in the working, why should men go wrong so much before they go right, why should they run after the evil that degrades them instead of following the good that would ennoble them? Was it not possible for the [God] of our universe, for the Devas who are His Agents, for the great Manus who came to guide our infant humanity - was it not possible for Them to plan so that there might be no such apparent failure in the working out? Was it not possible for Them to guide so that the road might have been a straight and direct one instead of so devious, so circuitous?

"Here comes the point that makes the evolution of humanity so difficult, having in view the object which is to be gained. Easy in truth would it have been to have made a humanity that might have been perfect, easy to have so guided its dawning powers that those powers might have travelled towards what we call the good continually, and never have turned aside towards what we call evil. But what would have been the condition of such an easy accomplish­ment? It must have been that man would have been an automaton, moved by a compelling force without him which imperiously laid upon him a law which he was compelled to fulfil, from which he could not escape. The mineral world is under such a law; the affinities that bind atom to atom obey such an imperious com­pulsion. But as we rise higher we find greater and greater freedom gradually making its appearance, until in man we see a spontaneous energy, a freedom of choice, which is really the dawning manifestation of the God, of the Self, which is beginning to show itself through man. And the object, the goal which was to be attained, was not to make automata who should blindly follow a path sketched out for their treading, but to make a reflection of [God] Himself, to make a mighty assemblage of wise and perfected men who should choose the best because they know and understand it, who should reject the worst because by experience they have learnt its inadequacy and the sorrow to which it leads. So that in the universe of the future, as amongst all the great Ones who are guiding the universe of today, there should be unity gained by consensus of wills, which have become one again by knowledge and by choice, which move with a single purpose because they know the whole, which are identical with the Law because they have learned that the Law is good, who choose to be one with the Law not by an outside compulsion, but by an inner acquiescence. Thus in that universe of the future there will be one Law, as there is in the present, carried out by means of Those who are the Law by the unity of Their purpose, the unity of Their knowledge, the unity of Their power - not a blind and unconscious Law, but an assemblage of living beings who are the Law, having become divine. There is no other road by which such goal might be reached, by which the free­will of the many should reunite into the one great Nature and the one great Law, save a process in which experience should be garnered, in which evil should be known as well as good, failure as well as triumph. Thus men become Gods, and because of the experience that lies behind them, they will, they think, they feel, the same."

 

[donnann]

The soul is literally pure emotion. Are you saying things that we do cause an emotion?

 

[donnann]

Dont you mean men become like gods? You can not attain more than what your highest self is in origin. An earthly being will never be a god but will be like a god. Beings that come from the heavenly kingdom always rise up to their highest self which is much bigger and consists of much more light than an earthly being and even if an earthly being is made immortal and perfect it cannot contain as much light as a heavenly being. The fallen angel tried to raise himself up above his own position , trying to attain more light and power. That caused him to fall. Its impossible to become something you never were and to try to increase the amount of light you possess that makes up your being. It causes sickness ect.

 

[IowaGuy]

we must freely choose to be good, and at the next level of existence only good people will be allowed in. We must allow people here at this level to be good or bad, so they can make that choice freely:

This of course assumes humans have free will. Do you think there is any level of determinism in our lives?

 

[wil]

I don't believe in divine intervention so no offense taken on my part

I spent some time planting seeds in my vegetable garden this morning since it was such a beautiful sunrise and the cardinals, wrens, and brown thrashers were really singing. Divine inspiration from a pantheist point of view

I'm sure the birds were singing....as you were feeding them eh? when the sower sowed the seeds, some of the seeds the birds took... this panentheist nonanthrpomprhictheistic christian likes it.

There is divine intervention. I am a universalist. I believe there is life on other planets and that each inhabited planet has had divine beings incarnate into thier body for the purpose of salvation. I believe that the planet earth was created last because the earthly kingdom was created in reverse order as a mirror image of the divine kingdom. This planet is center. The divine kingdom is much bigger and made up of more light and like each planet here each divine sphere has life on it that is simular to the life on a planet in the earthly kingdom. So I do believe in divine intervention but in a universal sense of the word.

Earthcentric....gotta love it, like a giant wankel universe! Interesting as to why we can't see heaven as we don't see the earth as center of it all...taking my mind to some interesting perspectives on the multiverse and reality and time existing on top of each other....thank you.

The books , all of them here on earth are all written with the same language. Do you interpret the words and phrases to mean what you associate those words with or do you put on a divine mind and interpret them correctly. I call the correct interpretation the song of moses. These are holy books. The problems in the world associated with religion are always tied to misinterpretion of those books. An example the removal of a head doesnt mean to actually harm someone and kill them. In the holy books it means to remove the old way of thinking and put on a new mind, a divine mind. You have to think like a divine being to realize the words mean the opposite of what you think they do.

all same language, not lopping off head, not killing millions leads to the next hitler post....time to put on a new mind, toss them old wine skins!

Thanks for sharing your views, I enjoy learning how other folks view the world, especially folks like yourself that don't fit into a particular religious box. To answer your question I don't believe in a G!d that would take sides in a war. I don't see any evidence of G!d at all in a war scenario.

How do atrocities such as the Holocaust, Oslo terror shooting, etc fit into your divine inspiration viewpoint? If you believe wars can have divine inspiration, are all the world's atrocities inspired by G!d? Do you view G!d as purely neutral if he applies as much to the writing of the bible as to the killing of Jews? Do you think G!d has any divine intervention capabilities at all?

What is the real difference between your viewpoint of G!d's divine inspiration of EVERYTHING and an atheists viewpoint of no divine inspiration at all?

G!d, the eachness of the allness the oneness talking to herself, "Say angels, lookee here, we got trouble down there on earth" Angels seperate souls responding as the one they are altogether now, "wow, racism, sexism, classism, religious discrimination...a freakin mess...again....still....yet...reminiscing about the flood, remembering swore never to do that again...but what will wake them up?" One soul lights up and begins to incarnate....I gotta great idea, a method to wake up the whole world, or 80% of it anyway, but I'll need eleven million volunteers..." G!d lets him dip the sop and says "Be one your way Adolf".

G!d don't give us patient people to learn patience, sometimes as we stray the lessons need to be dramatic, in order to become part of the collective consciousness as horrific and never to let happen again, in order to become memorialized.....just because it is real doesn't mean it isn't a metaphor and just because it is mythology or a parable, doesn't mean it isn't real...

The good, bad and the Ugly ---for the introspective mind, all have lessons to learn from.

But what is the goal, upon which 'inspirations' brings us closer to?

The lessons burn into the soul ---so that they are never forgotten.

But 99% of the repeatedly re-born souls (in samsara) ALWAYS FORGET!

The lessons are right under their noses ---yet they forget.

When "forgetting" it is infamously the best time to engage in libations and sensual pursuits.

While the war & famine & natural catastrophies rage on ---let's do to the Disco!

Why so much evil in the world? Here is a quote from Annie Besant saying that we must freely choose to be good, and at the next level of existence only good people will be allowed in. We must allow people here at this level to be good or bad, so they can make that choice freely:

Like modern day suicide bombers, early christians willingly went to the lions to martyr themselves, their belief was they were headed directly to heaven....one thing I know is I don't know....whether we reincarnate, rebirth, reborn, heaven, hell, or dust....a blissful existence exists when you know omnipresent means everywhere....present

The soul is literally pure emotion. Are you saying things that we do cause an emotion?

Why do you think emotion causes things we do?

This of course assumes humans have free will. Do you think there is any level of determinism in our lives?

No I don't.

yes I do.

wait.

damn it.

in the long run no...

in this existence we will all eventually die, this shell will be no more.

in the long run no....

eventually we all realize we were always with the one...never left the one...and are all (oops english malfunction) is all one.