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I said:
[M]y impression is that the Baha'is are effectively a religion, where the tenets of Baha'u'llah are effectively infallible and take precendent over all over religious texts.
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That's a bit overstated: it's not that Baha'i teachings "take precedence" so much as that they're simply the latest ones: this doesn't in any way make the Faith "better"--simply more recent.

Granted, we do have specific teachings and a formal Covenant, but so do other great religions!

Please note further that the Baha'i Covenant is indeed part of the Baha'i scriptures written by Baha'u'llah.

And the carping of a few individuals with their own agenda doesn't change this.

Regards, :)

Bruce
 
Firstly, my apologies - a couple of posts ended up in the moderation queue for some reason, now approved.


arthra said:
I've only been a Baha'i since around 1965 and have yet to see anyone "ostrasized or certainly not treated as a fully functioning member" for accepting other religious texts as authoritative..especially in their own sphere! But maybe you could supply an example or two?:)
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If they had claimed that the writings of the Baha'u'llah were secondary to that of the Bible, I think they would have. :)

BruceDLimber said:
That's a bit overstated: it's not that Baha'i teachings "take precedence" so much as that they're simply the latest ones: this doesn't in any way make the Faith "better"--simply more recent.
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Yes, there is the issue of progress revelation, which is a concept I fully agree with in a secular understanding of the term.

However, I'm under the impression that the Baha'i movement makes a clear claim to supercede all previous religious texts, thus is infallible and perfect, whereas all previous texts are fallible and imperfect and only meaningful for the period for which they were written.

Hence you cannot be a Baha'i is you criticise the validity of the writings of Baha'u'llah and believe them imperfect, because the movement only believes they can only be questioned by a prophet expected in a couple of thousand years.

That's my impression anyway - though you are welcome to correct me if I'm wrong. :)
 
Brian:

Yes, there is the issue of progress revelation, which is a concept I fully agree with in a secular understanding of the term.

My comment:

We call it "progressive revelation" and it is for instance in our view in the Bible as well..God progressively reveals Himself over time as the need is there.. We also see it when considering revelations over time in scriptures revealed outside the Bible say in the Qur'an, the writings of the Bab and so on.

Brian:

However, I'm under the impression that the Baha'i movement makes a clear claim to supercede all previous religious texts, thus is infallible and perfect, whereas all previous texts are fallible and imperfect and only meaningful for the period for which they were written.

My comment:

The Qur'an as an example we feel is an "authetic repository" of the Word of God.. not "imperfect" and yes "meaningful for the period for which they were written". Same goes for the Writings of the Bab. When a future Manifestation appears in "no less than a thousand years" the Writings of Baha'u'llah as to ordinances may well themselves be superceded.

Brian:

Hence you cannot be a Baha'i is you criticise the validity of the writings of Baha'u'llah and believe them imperfect, because the movement only believes they can only be questioned by a prophet expected in a couple of thousand years.

That's my impression anyway - though you are welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

My comment:

I think you mean:

"...you cannot be a Baha'i IF you criticise the validity of the writings of Baha'u'llah"

You can be a Baha'i if you accept Baha'u'llah as the Promised One of the age. If you are a scholar let's say and find some writings that someone alleges are from Baha'u'llah and the scholar finds they have been interpolated it would be perfectly just for him to bring his case before the Research Department at the World Center for review.

An example:

One of the prayers in our Prayer Book was deleted because they did not have the original in Persian.

Just a closing note:

Brian,

I think you are well meaning and have the interest of this forum at heart but maybe some of your impressions of Baha'is have been maybe a little inaccurate.. just ask if you have questions.

But I think the person who started this thread has a legitimate concern and as you know we've gone over this territory when the format was changed some years ago... I suggested to them as you know that it should be addressed in the other forum for feedback. If you're open to that I'd be willing to participate in it.:)
 
Well again I think Ruth White/ Frederick Glasher is using this thread to make unsubstantiated claims and if a moderator were actually doing their job would probably suggest it be relocated to another thread..

But here is an example from Ruth Frederick:

Again, most of the Haifan Baha'is have been completely deceived and brainwashed into believing an entirely false version of the early Bahai events during Abdul-Baha's lifetime, so that many Baha'is are well meaning but in the dark, without knowing it. The entire "covenant breaking" mentality that has been inculcated into them prevents them from seeking the truth of their own tradition.

Actually Abdul-Baha during His lifetime addressed the issues of covenant breaking so they are not restricted to the Will and Testament.. Here are some examples:


O ye members of the spiritual assembly! Become ye firm and steadfast in the Covenant and Testament to such a degree that your meeting become the expression of one soul and endeavor ye with your hearts and minds so that ye may become the cause of the illumination of this darkened world and that through your efforts the lights of the Kingdom dawn upon this nether sphere.

Whatever hath and will transpire in this land is through the conspiracy of the brothers who are not resting, neither day nor night, and are thirsting for the blood of Abdul-Baha. The government is not responsible at all. These difficulties are brought about through the evil slanders and machinations of the nakazeen [1].

[1 Nakazeen -- violators, i. e., those who reject after having professed allegiance. Here it refers particularly to those scattered few who profess to believe in BAHA'O'LLAH but who refuse to follow His command to turn to Abdul-Baha, the Centre of the Covenant, as appointed by BAHA'O'LLAH.]

O thou [1] whose heart is attracted and whose breast is dilated with joy by the Holy Fragrances!

[1 To the Washington (D. C.) assembly.]

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 436)

Praise be to God, you know with perfect clearness that His Holiness Christ, was extremely kind and loving, yet there were people like Judas Iscariot who -- by their own deeds -- separated themselves from Christ. Therefore, what fault of Christ's could that be? Now the Nakazene say that 'Abdu'l-Bahá is despotic, drives some people out and excommunicates like the Pope. This is not so at all! Any person who has left (the Cause), did so because of his own actions, intrigues and evil plots. If this objection be raised against 'Abdu'l-Bahá, they must also object to the Blessed Beauty who, with distinct and conclusive command, forbids the friends from companionship and familiarity with the violators of the people of Bayan. 433

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 432)

Ruth Frederick wrote:

Instead, unsuspectingly, they accept the half-truths and distortions concocted by Shoghi Effendi and others who benefited monetarily and otherwise from the forged document.

My response:

Shoghi Effendi was the grandson of Abdul-Baha and was studying in Oxford when His grandfather passed away.. His great aunt Bahiyyih Khanum was the defacto head of the Faith until he was able to assume the duties of teh Guardianship. He personally lived a frugal life style... not proflagate.

When Frederick became a Baha'i in 1976 he signed a Declaration Card and it would well for him I think to review what he signed those many years ago.
 
Art, if you haven't read it already, you should definitely check Schaeffer's Making the Crooked Straight: it thoroughly refutes the lie of the covenant-breakers that 'Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament was forged or that Shoghi Effendi otherwise "usurped" his position!

(Unfortunately, that section is too long to quote here; otherwise I would have.)

Bruce
 
wil said:
So the only differences you see in the faiths is that they are all outdated and old information, like using an abacus or trying to multiply with roman numerals,
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Did the arithmetic you learned in Junior school become "outdated" or redundant when you progressed to college and they taught you advanced Calculus? Or did your latter education build on the foundations of your early learning years? “Old information” isn’t useless information. It’s the preceding step to gaining new information.

To reiterate, religion is an evolutionary, incremental process subject to the limitations of student at stage of his development.

Referring to the founders of the former world faiths such as Jesus, Muhammad or Moses, Baha'u'llah says that they were all "perfect mirrors" of God's attributes meaning they were all possessed of the same power and glory.

The following are some crucial quotes which I have extracted from the same passage from Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah. They require some reflection. (The emphases in the quotes are mine.) Speaking of the founders of the former religions, Baha'u'llah says:
"These attributes of God are not, and have never been, vouchsafed specially unto certain prophets, and withheld from others....
"They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light....

"Therefore, these illumined souls, these beauteous Countenances (the prophets) have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God....

"That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these essences of Detatchment doth in no wise imply that they....did not actually possess it.


Even as Jesus says to his disciples:
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
This clearly implies that Jesus was endowed with the same divine truth that was revealed to Baha'u'llah. It was only the limited understanding of his audience at that moment in his history that prevented him from revealing the "full intensity" of God's truth.

Jesus goes on to say:
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.”


Baha'u'llah explicity makes it clear that Jesus (and all the former prophets) were possessed of the same truth as he was.

I would suggest that, if God had willed it, Jesus could have skipped Christianity and revealed the full intensity of the Baha'i teachings instead. But how absurd that would have been and what potential chaos it could have caused in a society that faced none of the social dilemmas facing humanity today. What was Jesus going to teach? The equality of men and women? That women should be free to pursue their chosen "careers" in marketing or web design? That science and religion should go hand in hand at a time when the height of science was how far a Roman catapult could project a rock? That there should be a universal language in a world where there was no concept of universality and society was mostly tribal? It was not Jesus' understanding that was limited. It was mankind's.

The revelation of Jesus was a new spiritual springtime for humanity. He expanded on spiritual truths formerlly expounded by his forerunners and brought people to a closer understanding of their creator. He also abrogated a few Judaic laws that were no longer relevant. And more importantly, announced that in time another would come to reveal a fuller measure of God's education. He was no less nor more important than Baha'u'llah.

Infact, Baha'u'llah unequivecally asserts that anyone who makes a distinction between the prophets is "in grave error". This, from a manifestation of God (Baha'u'llah) who prefixes his references to Christ with "May my life be a sacrifice to Him" !


"Condescending"?

End of my humble input to this thread. Thank-you to everyone for an engaging and civil conversation.

p.s. I didn't proof-read my hurried response. Forgive any incomprehensible gobbledegook!
 
Haifan Baha'is regularly violate the First Amendment rights of the Reform Bahai Faithand other Bahai denominations. Basically, their argument is often like a Catholic saying, "Be wary, they're Protestant," implying Protestants are heretics. The Reform Bahai Faith does not represent itself as the Baha'i Faith of Wilmette, Illinois, and Haifa, Israel. The very word "Reform" clearly indicates that fact, as does, for instance, Reform Judaism being different from Orthodox Judaism.

Notice the Haifan Baha'is here imply we do not have a Constitutional right to our own religious conviction, which we do, as do Christians of various denominations. Violating another religion's or someone's Constitutional rights is not "helpful." It's a crime under Federal Law. The content if their argument is "distasteful" to people of various open-minded religious and non-religious conviction, for it fails to demonstrate respect or tolerance of opinions other than the person's own opinion. In so far as that is the case, their remarks are spiteful. They express religious hatred.

Shoghi Effendi was the fanatical leader of the Wilmette-Haifan Baha'is and was actually the beneficiary of the 1921 fraudulent will and testament, forged by either himself or possibly his family. Again, it was judged as fraudulent by the distinguished document expert of the time at the British Museum in London, Dr. C. (Charles) Ainsworth Mitchell. See Dr. Mitchell's "Report on the Writing Shown on the Photographs of the Alleged Will of Abdul-Baha." 1930. Certified Copy from the Library of Congress.
Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell, Report on the Writing Shown on the Photographs of the Alleged Will of Abdu'l-Baha

None of the remarks here offer anything other than usual, typical equivocations of Shoghi Effendi, who like a coward evaded and hid from the pen of Ruth White, slandering her behind her back to the Baha'i flock of docile and malleable personalities as a "besotted woman," a misogynist slur, comparable to his referring to his brother's wife as a "low-born Christian woman." Such reprehensible tactics and opinions came from the pen of the "guardian" of the Haifan Baha'is.

If you would like to know more about the Reform Bahai Faith, please read About the Reform Bahai Faith at About the Reform Bahai Faith

Again, the US Federal Courts ruled *three* times against the Wilmette-Haifan Baha'i Faith from 2006 to 2010, in its attempt to destroy in court several Baha'i denominations, including the Reform Bahai Faith, which is specifically mentioned in the oral testimony before the Court on 02/20/2009. List of Documents in case

For obvious reasons, the Haifans have been obsessed with trying to keep knowledge of the lawsuit off the Internet, on all Baha'i forums that they control or influence.

Their open, unmitigated contempt for the US Constitutional rights of the Reform Bahai Faith and other Bahai believers is blatant and undeniable. All freedom-loving people should be concerned about their duplicity and power-hungry theocratic drive for control and domination.

Frederick Glaysher
Member of the Reform Bahai Faith
Reform Bahai Faith
 
To understand the real history of the Bahai Cause in the Western world, it is necessary to read the works of Ruth White and Ahmad Sohrab. They are available on the Reform Bahai Faith website, under Early Reform Bahais, Reform Bahai Faith

Bibliography

Ruth White, Appendix to Abdul-Baha and the Promised Age, 1929. ("Is the Bahai Organization the Enemy of the Bahai Religion?") http://reformbahai.org/images/WhiteOEBR.pdf

Ruth White Collection, Library of Congress, 1930 http://reformbahai.org/images/WhiteLCDocs.pdf

Ruth White, Bahai Leads Out of the Labyrinth. Universal Publishing Company, 1944. 259 pages. (pages 257, 258, 259 restored) http://reformbahai.org/images/WhiteBLOL.pdf

Ruth White. Abdul Baha's Questioned Will and Testament. Beverly Hills: White, 1946. http://reformbahai.org/images/WhiteABQWT.pdf

Dr. C. (Charles) Ainsworth Mitchell - Certified Copy from the Library of Congress:
Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell, Report on the Writing Shown on the Photographs of the Alleged Will of Abdu'l-Baha

Selected Bibliography of works by Ahmad Sohrab:

Mirza Ahmad Sohrab. Broken Silence: The Story of Today's Struggle for Religious Freedom.
New York: Universal Publishing, 1942. Entire Book PDF http://reformbahai.org/images/SohrabBrokenSilence.pdf

Mirza Ahmad Sohrab. Abdul Baha's Grandson: Story of a Twentieth Century Excommunication. New York: Universal Publishing for The New History Foundation, 1943. Reprinted. H-Bahai: Lansing, Michigan, 2004.
Abdu'l-Baha's Grandson

Mirza Ahmad Sohrab. The Will and Testament of Abdul Baha, An Analysis. New York: Universal Publishing, 1944. http://reformbahai.org/images/SohrabWTAB.pdf

See also McDaniel v. Mirza Ahmad Sohrab, 27 NYS 2d 525 - 1941
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...dventists+v.+McGill,&hl=en&as_sdt=20000000002

Frederick Glaysher
Member of the Reform Bahai Faith
Reform Bahai Faith
Reform Bahai Faith
 
BruceDLimber said:
...Schaeffer's Making the Crooked Straight...
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The British scholar Denis MacEoin's review of Schaeffer's Making the Crooked Straight discusses its many flaws and Baha'i fanaticism. Denis MacEoin Reviews Making the Crooked Straight H-Bahai, 2001

Denis MacEoin, Crisis in Babi and Baha'i Studies Bulletin, (British Society for Middle Eastern Studies), Vol. 17, No. 1 (1990), pp. 55-61. http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicenso...acEoin, Crisis in Babi and Baha'i Studies.pdf

Denis MacEoin, A Few Words in Response to Cole's 'Reply to MacEoin.' British Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, Vol. 18, No. 1 (1991), pp. 86-87. http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicenso...ds in Response to Cole's Reply to MacEoin.pdf

Professor Juan Cole on Denis MacEoin
Making the Crooked Straight - Reviewed by Denis MacEoin posted on H-Bahai, 2001
 
Ahanu said:
Your version of Christianity is way, way, way different from the Christianity I grew up with.

If I was still a Southern Baptist Christian I would most likely not be willing to learn about the Catholic tradition. Scratch out most likely. No.
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I think this is an issue in all religions, the reservation to actually learning about another's beliefs. Is it fear?

bob x said:
This is the first time I even knew about the existence of schisms within the Baha'i movement, which I find ironic given the original intention to be a unification of all religions, but not surprising given human nature.
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Yes not surprising, whenever two or more are gathered.....there will be disagreement.

arthra said:
Certainly when you look back over the history of Christianity there has been censorship and conflict and so many schisms.
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Yes there have, and we are worse off for it.

Attempts to sweep things under the rug rarely gets rid of them, simply provides a nest for other bugs to populate...

Another bonus of this thread, it popped up another thread that I missed.

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/covenant-breaker-website-6096.html
 
Ah Ruth, thou are truly a G!dsend. With the kind of doctrinal control I found in the literature, I now know why many are confused (especially me). Why is it Sihks seem the only monotheistic religion not to fragment?

But are all the various groupings good or bad? It depends on what the group does, how it behaves or believes. IMHO a group that is exclusional or triumphalist add little good to the world. For instance, the best attitude I ever saw along these lines was at a Native American Gathering. Wise men from various nations sat around (realize the linguistic and cultural differences among them is much wider than generally recognized). One elder finished his Hopi (I think) creation story and an Haudonashone elder said "I like it, now let me tell you our version". This went on for the evening and everyone genuinely accepted all the other stories as valid.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt. Radarmark
 
Ruth/Frederick wrote above:

"Frederick Glaysher
Member of the Reform Bahai Faith
Reform Bahai Faith"

Frederick is the creator of Reform Baha'i Faith..and maybe the member too...:)
 
arthra said:
Ruth/Frederick wrote above:
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arthra said:

"Frederick Glaysher
Member of the Reform Bahai Faith
Reform Bahai Faith"

Frederick is the creator of Reform Baha'i Faith..and maybe the member too...:)
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The word Art apparently omitted is that he's maybe the SOLE member (or maybe it's he and one other dissident, for a total "membership" of two.

In contrast, the Baha'i Faith, which, please note, never uses the term "Haifan," has millions of members and exists in literally every country on earth (save the Vatican)!

I refer those interested to this site for further details:

http://www.bahai.org

Peace,

Bruce
 
Bruce,

If you check posts nos. 58 and 59 above the "Reform Baha'i" have at least doubled while on this thread! There's "Ahmad Sohrab" and "Ruth White".
 
arthra said:
Bruce,

If you check posts nos. 58 and 59 above the "Reform Baha'i" have at least doubled while on this thread! There's "Ahmad Sohrab" and "Ruth White".
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I'm thinking with the controversy possibly 'ruth' thought the post was being blocked and reposted it an hour later under another name...

This will be looked into, thanks for pointing it out.
 
radarmark said:
...With the kind of doctrinal control I found in the literature, I now know why many are confused (especially me). Why is it Sihks seem the only monotheistic religion not to fragment?

...IMHO a group that is exclusional or triumphalist add little good to the world. For instance, the best attitude I ever saw along these lines was at a Native American Gathering. Wise men from various nations sat around (realize the linguistic and cultural differences among them is much wider than generally recognized). One elder finished his Hopi (I think) creation story and an Haudonashone elder said "I like it, now let me tell you our version". This went on for the evening and everyone genuinely accepted all the other stories as valid...
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"Doctrinal control" has been called "review" since after 1921. It's a very comprehensive, oppressive censorship that has regularly even changed the facts of history to suit its own version of events. For instance, Nabil's account of early Babi history was a mere 70 pages; Shoghi Effendi turned it into several hundred pages of largely fiction. Denis MacEoin is especially insightful in that regard.

I have a long interest in the Sikhs, going back to the early 1990s, and have attended services at Gudwaras on three occasions. Kabir's poems are especially important to me. You'll understand I consider myself a friend of the Sikhs when I say that actually they have had a history too of struggling for understanding and unity. Harjot Oberoi's book "The Construction of Religious Boundaries: Culture, Identity, and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition" (Chicago UP, 1994) is a particularly good account of it all. Alas, Sikhs too are human.

I fully share your view of the "exclusional or triumphalist" impulse. THAT is the problem of institutional, organized religion, according to Abdul-Baha's true interpretation of Baha'u'llah's teachings:

""This movement is not an organization—it is the realization of a new spirit. The foundation of that spirit is the love of God; and its method, the love and service of mankind. Many who have never heard of this revelation teach its laws and spiritual truths. These people are performing what Baha'u'llah hath commanded though they never heard of him."

Your citing American Indians speaks so well to the problem. As someone who lived on a reservation in Arizona for two years, I really appreciate your anecdote, which evokes warm and human memories for me. Those are the Indians I knew on a personal level too. I would add, though, as many observe, the Australian Aborigines, African traditional religions, and other non-doctrinal, non-creedal peoples and conceptions of transcendence also have the same universal perspective.

Religion isn't the Judeo-Christian-Islamic attempt to separate the sheep from the goats. Unfortunately, the Haifan Baha'is reverted to the Shiite mold under Shoghi Effendi's false "covenant," a creed that has already destroyed many individuals and families.
 
wil said:
I'm thinking with the controversy possibly 'ruth' thought the post was being blocked and reposted it an hour later under another name...

This will be looked into, thanks for pointing it out.
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Wil,

I'm afraid that's what may have happened. I apologize to people on the forum since I accidentally posted the same message a few times.

On technical level, the message at the end of the posts then, just flashed by, so I wasn't sure what the message even said.

Perhaps "I, Brian" made a relevant comment at post #62: "Firstly, my apologies - a couple of posts ended up in the moderation queue for some reason, now approved."

I believe I have the hang of this Forum now and shall endeavor to do better.

Best.
 
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